This is what people struggle with. Top-tier programs, which we are even if some hate that reality, have different expectations than say Golden or Rhule at Temple. Golden was fired for a reason--and should have been fired long before he was. Rhule has yet to do anything. In 2019, he took advantage of a weak Big XII with Texas being down. It was impressive that he won any games at Baylor but expecting him to have top 10 wins in 3 years isn't logical. This is year 11 for Franklin. This is fully his team.
Is CF criticism valid…
- Thread starter Parf
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Even including Joe's last 15 years is still does not take away the fact that Franklin has a lot of worl left to even come remotely close to Joe's record in years 11-21 (if he manages to keep his job that long).
Excuses. Tiny period of time? 30 years. You have no clue.
To be fair, even though I think Paterno should have retired long before he did, while he was here we at least occasionally believed we could realistically contend for a title. Even as late as 99 before it collapsed. '05 and '08 were championship caliber teams but did beat a top 10 team. Franklin's done a solid, Richt-esque, job--and now he needs to continue to build on it or have the same fate as Richt.
Why would you exclude Joe's last 15 years? 15 YEARS?
If Joe had 15 years where he could not match Joe's record then why would you expect anyone else to match Joe's record?
Do you really expect a coach to match the winningest coach of all time?
If PSU beats USC will you give PSU credit or make excuses like you did after the Utah win?
Beating USC would be a big time win on the road against a blue blood with a ton of skill position players, especially on offense. It would arguably be JF's best regular season win after the 2016 victory over OSU. No excuses at all if we get the W. It would be a much more relevant win than a bowl game win over Utah, considering playoffs could be on the line.
I think most fans agree that Paterno should have retired long before he did. For crying our loud the dark years were inexcusable and he wasn't even healthy enough to make recruiting trips. That said, his final years were amazing given the circumstances.
2005: 11-1, BiG champs, ranked #3 in nation
2006: 9-4, ranked #24
2007: 9-4, ranked 25th
2008: 11-2, BiG champs, ranked #8
2009: 11-2, ranked #8
2010: 7-6
2011: 8-1, only loss to Alabama
Think about that. Joe couldn't even visit recruits. Maybe Galen & Jay along with Bradley & LJ did all the work while they milked Joe's reputation but somehow it worked.
Now add this. PSU had a top 5 recruiting class for 2012 until the Sandusky scandal hit. I also think the team was odds on favorite to win the BiG in 2012 if not for Freeh agency. O'Brien took over and was 8-4 in 2012. The first two losses to Ohio and Virginia would have definitely been wins and I also think we beat OSU & Nebraska. We played without a kicker (Fera) or RB (Redd) and were also missing key players like Brown (WR) and Fortt (LB). Add those guys back in the mix and eliminate the Sandusky distraction and PSU had a great shot to win the BiG.
Joe should have retired much earlier but his final seasons were pretty good.
Franklin needs a win over USC or OSU this year for the sake of his reputation.
Agree that is now his job. I just don't think he's playing on a level field wrt Oregon & USC when it comes to NIL opportunities.
Not 30 years.
This topic has been beaten to death, with the twisting and turning of stats and results to fit narratives.
There was a run of "success" where PSU played non-top-tier comp in the 60s and 70s (as an example, one undefeated season, the highest ranked team we played in the regular season was #20 at the time ... another we didn't play a single ranked team during the regular season), followed by the glory years stretch of early-to-mid 80s. By the early 90s, the bloom was off the rose and there was substantial chatter to move on. Then we were held hostage by the "legacy" and the occasional outlier competitive year.
Let it go. Move on.
"Given the circumstances" ... therein lies the problem. Folks are always willing to make excuses and twist narratives to support one side or the other.
Richt had an absolute gold-mine of recruiting talent in his backyard and couldn't pull enough in. Despite having, essentially, the #1 pick of the litter, he was pulling in recruiting classes in the #6-12 range, while Smart pulled in #1-3 (and, magically, started winning more). Georgia could miss a heck of a lot more than PSU and still out recruit PSU ... and would barely have to leave the state. Franklin's doing a heckuva better job than Richt did, given their respective inherent advantages and disadvantages.
And we keep talking about PSU v. "Top 10" teams ... more accurately it's usually Top 5 teams ... and, often, Top 3. There IS a difference between playing, for example, the latest #9 and playing a perpetual top 3. It's much harder to beat the latter. If OSU and UM floated between 6 and 10, or close to that, our success against them, and overall, would likely be materially different.
The "can't beat top teams" criticism is a red herring in the crying about CJF.
I know, I know ... the critics will cry "but he CAN'T ... look at his record!"
Yeah, but you don't really care about that. Don't believe me? Imagine a scenario where PSU is at least .500 against Top 10 teams under Franklin, but has the same overall record ... that means, somewhere along the line, while they beat an OSU or UM half the time, they're losing to a Wisky, MSU, etc.
So, ask yourself, in that scenario, would you be fine with CJF's performance? Of course you wouldn't, if you're honest with yourself. Why? Because you don't actually care how he does against "elite teams" - you just want more wins, period. You want playoffs and nattys. And if you get those, you'll want them more often.
It just so happens that we've had those elite teams in our division, standing in our way to making the playoffs, so it's a convenient data point to highlight ... but, again, it's not about his failure to beat top teams ... it's about the lack of total wins.
I know, I know ... the critics will cry "but he CAN'T ... look at his record!"
Yeah, but you don't really care about that. Don't believe me? Imagine a scenario where PSU is at least .500 against Top 10 teams under Franklin, but has the same overall record ... that means, somewhere along the line, while they beat an OSU or UM half the time, they're losing to a Wisky, MSU, etc.
So, ask yourself, in that scenario, would you be fine with CJF's performance? Of course you wouldn't, if you're honest with yourself. Why? Because you don't actually care how he does against "elite teams" - you just want more wins, period. You want playoffs and nattys. And if you get those, you'll want them more often.
It just so happens that we've had those elite teams in our division, standing in our way to making the playoffs, so it's a convenient data point to highlight ... but, again, it's not about his failure to beat top teams ... it's about the lack of total wins.
He has to win those game on top of beating teams he should beat. And I don't think anyone is asking for 500
I think Joe had 5 undefeated seasons in addition to the NC where we lost one game. Yes, the "eastern" schedules were considered weak but Joe did win bowl games against highly ranked teams.
FWIW I think a lot of people who you say won't move on are simply defending the argument that Franklin has done a better job than Joe.
Yes and I actually think there are people on this board/thread who think Franklin is a better coach with better results than Joe. Not sure what to say about that because I can't get my jaw off the ground.
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