This is what people struggle with. Top-tier programs, which we are even if some hate that reality, have different expectations than say Golden or Rhule at Temple. Golden was fired for a reason--and should have been fired long before he was. Rhule has yet to do anything. In 2019, he took advantage of a weak Big XII with Texas being down. It was impressive that he won any games at Baylor but expecting him to have top 10 wins in 3 years isn't logical. This is year 11 for Franklin. This is fully his team.
Is CF criticism valid…
- Thread starter Parf
- Start date
Even including Joe's last 15 years is still does not take away the fact that Franklin has a lot of worl left to even come remotely close to Joe's record in years 11-21 (if he manages to keep his job that long).
Excuses. Tiny period of time? 30 years. You have no clue.
To be fair, even though I think Paterno should have retired long before he did, while he was here we at least occasionally believed we could realistically contend for a title. Even as late as 99 before it collapsed. '05 and '08 were championship caliber teams but did beat a top 10 team. Franklin's done a solid, Richt-esque, job--and now he needs to continue to build on it or have the same fate as Richt.
Why would you exclude Joe's last 15 years? 15 YEARS?
If Joe had 15 years where he could not match Joe's record then why would you expect anyone else to match Joe's record?
Do you really expect a coach to match the winningest coach of all time?
If PSU beats USC will you give PSU credit or make excuses like you did after the Utah win?
Beating USC would be a big time win on the road against a blue blood with a ton of skill position players, especially on offense. It would arguably be JF's best regular season win after the 2016 victory over OSU. No excuses at all if we get the W. It would be a much more relevant win than a bowl game win over Utah, considering playoffs could be on the line.
I think most fans agree that Paterno should have retired long before he did. For crying our loud the dark years were inexcusable and he wasn't even healthy enough to make recruiting trips. That said, his final years were amazing given the circumstances.
2005: 11-1, BiG champs, ranked #3 in nation
2006: 9-4, ranked #24
2007: 9-4, ranked 25th
2008: 11-2, BiG champs, ranked #8
2009: 11-2, ranked #8
2010: 7-6
2011: 8-1, only loss to Alabama
Think about that. Joe couldn't even visit recruits. Maybe Galen & Jay along with Bradley & LJ did all the work while they milked Joe's reputation but somehow it worked.
Now add this. PSU had a top 5 recruiting class for 2012 until the Sandusky scandal hit. I also think the team was odds on favorite to win the BiG in 2012 if not for Freeh agency. O'Brien took over and was 8-4 in 2012. The first two losses to Ohio and Virginia would have definitely been wins and I also think we beat OSU & Nebraska. We played without a kicker (Fera) or RB (Redd) and were also missing key players like Brown (WR) and Fortt (LB). Add those guys back in the mix and eliminate the Sandusky distraction and PSU had a great shot to win the BiG.
Joe should have retired much earlier but his final seasons were pretty good.
Franklin needs a win over USC or OSU this year for the sake of his reputation.
Agree that is now his job. I just don't think he's playing on a level field wrt Oregon & USC when it comes to NIL opportunities.
Not 30 years.
This topic has been beaten to death, with the twisting and turning of stats and results to fit narratives.
There was a run of "success" where PSU played non-top-tier comp in the 60s and 70s (as an example, one undefeated season, the highest ranked team we played in the regular season was #20 at the time ... another we didn't play a single ranked team during the regular season), followed by the glory years stretch of early-to-mid 80s. By the early 90s, the bloom was off the rose and there was substantial chatter to move on. Then we were held hostage by the "legacy" and the occasional outlier competitive year.
Let it go. Move on.
"Given the circumstances" ... therein lies the problem. Folks are always willing to make excuses and twist narratives to support one side or the other.
Richt had an absolute gold-mine of recruiting talent in his backyard and couldn't pull enough in. Despite having, essentially, the #1 pick of the litter, he was pulling in recruiting classes in the #6-12 range, while Smart pulled in #1-3 (and, magically, started winning more). Georgia could miss a heck of a lot more than PSU and still out recruit PSU ... and would barely have to leave the state. Franklin's doing a heckuva better job than Richt did, given their respective inherent advantages and disadvantages.
And we keep talking about PSU v. "Top 10" teams ... more accurately it's usually Top 5 teams ... and, often, Top 3. There IS a difference between playing, for example, the latest #9 and playing a perpetual top 3. It's much harder to beat the latter. If OSU and UM floated between 6 and 10, or close to that, our success against them, and overall, would likely be materially different.
The "can't beat top teams" criticism is a red herring in the crying about CJF.
I know, I know ... the critics will cry "but he CAN'T ... look at his record!"
Yeah, but you don't really care about that. Don't believe me? Imagine a scenario where PSU is at least .500 against Top 10 teams under Franklin, but has the same overall record ... that means, somewhere along the line, while they beat an OSU or UM half the time, they're losing to a Wisky, MSU, etc.
So, ask yourself, in that scenario, would you be fine with CJF's performance? Of course you wouldn't, if you're honest with yourself. Why? Because you don't actually care how he does against "elite teams" - you just want more wins, period. You want playoffs and nattys. And if you get those, you'll want them more often.
It just so happens that we've had those elite teams in our division, standing in our way to making the playoffs, so it's a convenient data point to highlight ... but, again, it's not about his failure to beat top teams ... it's about the lack of total wins.
I know, I know ... the critics will cry "but he CAN'T ... look at his record!"
Yeah, but you don't really care about that. Don't believe me? Imagine a scenario where PSU is at least .500 against Top 10 teams under Franklin, but has the same overall record ... that means, somewhere along the line, while they beat an OSU or UM half the time, they're losing to a Wisky, MSU, etc.
So, ask yourself, in that scenario, would you be fine with CJF's performance? Of course you wouldn't, if you're honest with yourself. Why? Because you don't actually care how he does against "elite teams" - you just want more wins, period. You want playoffs and nattys. And if you get those, you'll want them more often.
It just so happens that we've had those elite teams in our division, standing in our way to making the playoffs, so it's a convenient data point to highlight ... but, again, it's not about his failure to beat top teams ... it's about the lack of total wins.
He has to win those game on top of beating teams he should beat. And I don't think anyone is asking for 500
I think Joe had 5 undefeated seasons in addition to the NC where we lost one game. Yes, the "eastern" schedules were considered weak but Joe did win bowl games against highly ranked teams.
FWIW I think a lot of people who you say won't move on are simply defending the argument that Franklin has done a better job than Joe.
Yes and I actually think there are people on this board/thread who think Franklin is a better coach with better results than Joe. Not sure what to say about that because I can't get my jaw off the ground.
Get the guy in a big game and he forgets any knowledge of football case in point 1st game , first touchdown and he goes for 2 that is just plain stupidity this guy belongs in division two or three program and you people that still stand up for him are just as stupid as he is
As I said before, Paterno took Penn State from a "farm school" to a national contender. That is a noteworthy achievement. Now, PSU just needs to contend. Franklin knows this. He's trying.
I don't think Franklin is a bad coach, but PSU can't seem to break through. My biggest peeve is the lack of a team identity. I don't see it. With Paterno, you knew it. Tough D, good special teams, an offense that will manage the game, and when it is close in the 4th, make a "clutch" play (think Thompson to Fields in 91 for the win at Miami).
That was '99 for the Thompson to Fields connection. In '91 we almost beat a powerhouse Miami team at Miami. Another great example of a clutch play dialed up by Joe is the '85 Alabama game. Knizner replaces and injured Shaffer and passes on his first pIay to a wide open TE Siverling. Gives us a 19-10 lead midway through the 4th. Nobody in the world thought we would pass there.
I get your point and agree. One thing I do know is we produce good defenses under Franklin but I don't think Franklin produces particularly tough teams.
There are also some who think Franklin inherited a program that was in much worse shape than the program Joe inherited. I find that unbelievable. No doubt Franklin inherited a roster that was depleted by sanctions and the first year or two was going to be difficult. But the history, facilities, fanbase, etc. that Franklin inherited was well established.
I remember Joe telling the administration not to worry about him, just take care of his staff. He thought keeping his staff together was critical to success. Franklin seems to replace coordinators every year and he acts like that's a good thing. It's a sign that they did a good job and other schools want them. Maybe that's just how things are in the world of college football these days.
In reality, BOB got us through the roughest first years. That was amazing feat to stabilize after OH and UVA debacles then actually beat UM then Wisconsin twice (Brett won 11 games in 2012), including that 2013 win when UW was #14, riding a big win streak, angling for BCS game. It basically said to NCAA, media and college football world, f-you..you did not break us. Frankin did not have it easy for first year but things got back to business after that UW win to close season.
Sorry but I'm not a fan.
- BOB stayed with the Patriots while our recruiting class fall apart. He said PSU was hiring a coach for 5+ years, not just a few months.
- BOB inherited a strong roster with a few key pieces missing (Fortt, Redd, Fera) that he might have been able to convince to stay.
- There was no excuse losing to Ohio & UVa even with the key departures. I think BOB's late arrival resulted in the team being unprepared.
- BOB used PSU as a stepping stone to an NFL job. He had no interest being a college coach.
- Franklin inherited a roster that was largely depleted by sanctions and transfers. He started with much less than BOB started with.
I have a hard time faulting anyone for having ambitions. Geez, he was offered NFL HC job. Not like he made a lateral move. The disaster that was the PSU university admin, PA politicans, athletic dept and overall hurt in community? Then you replace a legend who was villified and you have to hold up program. I can't imagine being BOB..who wants that long term? Let's be real. He put his head down and put together some tough teams and rode out storm. Depth was paper thin and people hated us in every stadium
Exactly! I didn't care that he was ambitious. I just didn't like that he made it clear that he didn't want to be at PSU.
The problem with O'Brien is he is a arrogant prima dona who is never happy. You can give him everything he wants and he still complains. Did he get along with any boss at any of his jobs?
Bs. A number of the staff left for higher pay. They were forced out.
The coaches that were fired should have been fired. Maybe you think it is a good thing to hire your son who is not qualified and then never make a change.
Ever check the turnover at Alabama? You are living in the past. Go find the statue.
Last edited:
That is a joke. Army, navy and ivy league schools were national champs back then. Not exactly like building a national contender today. Penn actually has more national championships than joe and psu.
Yeah, the 99 team was definitely clutch. That's why they went into the final 3 weeks undefeated, and then proceeded to lose the final 3 games (one to an unranked team, the other 2 to #16 and 15, respectively ... 2 of those at home) by a TD or less.
85 squad was clutch as well ... playing in the de facto championship game, they kept it close against Oklahoma, only to be undone by a combination of things, including a couple ridiculous late hits by the PSU defense and a missed chip shot FG by the PSU special teams.
The 91 team "clutchly" lost to an unranked USC squad early in the season and then couldn't pull off the win v Miami, losing by 6.
We are already a national contender. Courtesy of Joe Paterno. No one is saying the college football is static. He came to a small regional farm school and left with two national championships which could have easily been 4 or more.
Saw an article yesterday that Kotelnicki is generating interest as a HC........
The '99 pass play in the Mismi game to win it was clutch but the season collapsed late. Little did we know Brady was foreshadowing to be the GOAT. That Minny loss was horrendous.
The '91 team improved and throttled Tenn in the Fiesta Bowl. A classic JoePa bowl win. If I recall we were down well into the 3rd quarter and then poured it on to rout them something like 42-17.
The '85 team completely over achieved. How many close games did we pull out that year? We went all the way to the NC game and you ignore all that to highlight we lost that game to a better OU team.
Using that logic you should be worshiping a statue of rip Engle and give him joes 409 wins.
That small farm school was in the middle of one of the most talent rich states at the time. Back then Pennsylvania was like Florida, Texas or Georgia today. Joe would be a shadow of his former self today. Between NIL, transfer portal, less in state talent and coaching turnover joe would have problems.
It's a fact, not a point.
If it was a talent rich state back then, the talent wasn't going to a farm school in the middle of nowhere when Paterno started. They were going to Pitt, Notre Dame, OSU.......
It is immaterial what Joe would have been today with NIL, transfer portal. A total non-sequitur.
None of those schools had Ohio State and Michigan on their schedule every year except MSU and their year was an off season for OSU. We had one of the worst divisions to be in. That is no longer an excuse
I think Joe would have struggled with today's game.
- He attracted players by appealing to parents that he would keep them out of trouble and make sure they got a good education.
- Joe supported a small stipend for players because the combination of athletic/academic commitment made it difficult for players to get a side job so they could buy a pizza with friends. But he also opposed Lubrano park because he didn't think professional sports belonged on a college campus.
- I think Joe was also about commitment. I don't he'd respond well to players opting out of bowl games or transferring out completely. He also wanted his players to be well groomed. CAn you imagine that these days?
Joe wouldn't have cares about the bowl games. He would have loved to have had the opportunity to play kids that would be there next year instead. He also would have loves the expanded playoff
He would have hated the portal because it reduces his ability to control things...same as Saban
The money wouldn't have bothered him. His only concern would have been around providing them support on managing it.
I don't believe the first bullet point. He got kids because they believed he could help get them to the NFL by the mid 70s if not before
Similar threads
