Is Franklin content with being mediocre?

[heckmans]

Now compare Michigan and Ohio State over Joe’s final decade to their current programs. How many top 5 teams did Joe face those seasons? How many top 10? How many seasons with multiple top 10 opponents? How many has Franklin faced? Silly to act like those programs aren’t currently at all time highs, especially UM. Joe struggled with average Michigan teams until Carr retired. Would love to get the Rich Rod Wolverines on the current schedule.

Fair points, but JF was not exactly killing it against UM in the late Hoke/early Harbaugh days - Harbaugh was "mediocre" from 15-20 and had his salary halved. JF was 3-4 against Hoke/Harbaugh from 14-20. Harbaugh magically figured it out in 2021 and JF is now 3-7 overall.

I'm gonna re-ask a question that no one seems to be willing to answer. During his tenure, JF's teams have not performed well against teams of similar talent, and has all too often lost/had scares to lesser talented teams. You suggest that this has been cleaned up and it's true that PSU hasn't sh*t the bed against Pitt or Temple in the last few seasons. I guess we give a pass on 2021 with the asterisk of Clifford being hurt against Illinois in that 9OT debacle? I still, as I watch games, assess that JF doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed and he gets tatically outcoached more than he should.
IDK...I've tried to wait things out and hope for improvement, but from what you are now saying, OSU and Mich are better and we should be happy. At some point, OSU and Mich won't be better so just be happy being not as good now because at some point they will slip below PSU and PSU will win. Is that about accurate?

 

[voltz99]

Should PSU fire every PSU coach whose teams finish outside the top 20? We should also eliminate teams that lose money. Who is in? Let's see who demands excellence.

 

[voltz99]

Fair points, but JF was not exactly killing it against UM in the late Hoke/early Harbaugh days - Harbaugh was "mediocre" from 15-20 and had his salary halved. JF was 3-4 against Hoke/Harbaugh from 14-20. Harbaugh magically figured it out in 2021 and JF is now 3-7 overall.

I'm gonna re-ask a question that no one seems to be willing to answer. During his tenure, JF's teams have not performed well against teams of similar talent, and has all too often lost/had scares to lesser talented teams. You suggest that this has been cleaned up and it's true that PSU hasn't sh*t the bed against Pitt or Temple in the last few seasons. I guess we give a pass on 2021 with the asterisk of Clifford being hurt against Illinois in that 9OT debacle? I still, as I watch games, assess that JF doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed and he gets tatically outcoached more than he should.
IDK...I've tried to wait things out and hope for improvement, but from what you are now saying, OSU and Mich are better and we should be happy. At some point, OSU and Mich won't be better so just be happy being not as good now because at some point they will slip below PSU and PSU will win. Is that about accurate?

Name a better coach that wants the PSU job. Make sure they have a winning record vs the top ten, OSU and UM.

The field is about 10-110 vs the top ten each year during the regular season. Rhule, Golden and Schiano have 0 top ten wins combined. Rhule is a .500 coach for his career.

Was Obrien killing it against UM and OSU? 1-3 with a jump ball for the win. Dont forget his losses to CFU, Virginia, Ohio Bobcats, Illinois, Indiana, and Nebraska. St Joe had a losing record vs OSU and UM.

 

[fastlax16]

Fair points, but JF was not exactly killing it against UM in the late Hoke/early Harbaugh days - Harbaugh was "mediocre" from 15-20 and had his salary halved. JF was 3-4 against Hoke/Harbaugh from 14-20. Harbaugh magically figured it out in 2021 and JF is now 3-7 overall.

I'm gonna re-ask a question that no one seems to be willing to answer. During his tenure, JF's teams have not performed well against teams of similar talent, and has all too often lost/had scares to lesser talented teams. You suggest that this has been cleaned up and it's true that PSU hasn't sh*t the bed against Pitt or Temple in the last few seasons. I guess we give a pass on 2021 with the asterisk of Clifford being hurt against Illinois in that 9OT debacle? I still, as I watch games, assess that JF doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed and he gets tatically outcoached more than he should.
IDK...I've tried to wait things out and hope for improvement, but from what you are now saying, OSU and Mich are better and we should be happy. At some point, OSU and Mich won't be better so just be happy being not as good now because at some point they will slip below PSU and PSU will win. Is that about accurate?

Penn State vs Top 10 (Final AP Poll) Opponents during Joe's entire tenure in the Big 10. 1 Win against a team that finished in the top 5 (#4 OSU) in 05 and 1 against a team that finished in the top 10 (#9 OSU) in 08. What program do you think you've been following for the last 30 years?

OSU finished outside the top 10 in 2011, 04, 01, 00, 99, 97, 94, 93.

UM finished outside the top 10 in 2011, 2010, 09, 08, 07, 05, 04, 01, 00, 98, 96, 95, 94, 93.

OSU has never finished outside the top 10 in Franklins tenure. So 11 top 10 finishes Joe's 19 seasons. 10 in Franklin's 10.

Michigan has finished top 3 the last 3 years. Only one top 10 finish from 2014-2020. So 5 top 10 finishes in Joe's 19 seasons. 4 in Franklin's 10.

All you guys who want .500 or better against CFP level opponents need to wake the f up or find a Hot Tub Time Machine that can take you back to the 80s. Joe didn't beat a top 10 big ten team for nearly a decade and a half after joining the conference.

The top of the conference is better than it's ever been and Franklin has more top 10 wins in almost half the time.

Go relive the 1994 team mowing down a bunch of mediocre teams if that gets you off. We'll never see an entire season with no top 10 teams on the schedule again.

Year	Top 5 Wins	Top 5 Losses	Top 10 wins	Top 10 Losses
2011	0	1 (#1 Bama)	0	1 (#10 Wisconsin)
2010	0	1 (#5 OSU)	0	1 (#10 Bama)
2009	0	1 (#5 OSU)	0	1 (#7 Iowa)
2008	0	1 (#3 USC- Bowl)	1 (# 9 OSU)	0
2007	0	1 (#5 OSU)	0	0
2006	0	1 (#2 OSU)	0	2 (#7 Wis) (#8 UM)
2005	1 (#4 OSU)	0	0	0
2004	0	0	0	1 (#8 Iowa)
2003	0	1 (#4 OSU)	0	1 (#8 Iowa)
2002	0	1 (#1 OSU)	0	2 (#8 Iowa) (#9 UM)
2001	0	1 (#1 Miami)	0	0
2000	0	0	0	0
1999	0	1 (#5 UM)	0	1 (#7 MSU)
1998	0	1 (#2 OSU)	0	1 (#6 Wisconsin)
1997	0	2 (#1 UM) (#4 Florida- Bowl)	0	0
1996	0	1 (#2 OSU)	0	0
1995	0	0	0	2 (#6 OSU) (#8 NW)
1994	0	0	0	0
1993	0	0	0	0

 

[PSU2UNC]

But all 10 were against mediocre opponents, so...🤷🤷

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Your definition of mediocre is incorrect.
The root of the word is related to median or average. Average would be 6-6.

Only three of PSU's opponents fall into that category (below mediocre) but the others all won more than 6 games.

 

[fastlax16]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Your definition of mediocre is incorrect.
The root of the word is related to median or average. Average would be 6-6.

Only three of PSU's opponents fall into that category (below mediocre) but the others all won more than 6 games.

By his definition Penn State beat nothing but mediocre teams from 1993 until OSU 2005.

 

[ryoder1]

Now compare Michigan and Ohio State over Joe’s final decade to their current programs. How many top 5 teams did Joe face those seasons? How many top 10? How many seasons with multiple top 10 opponents? How many has Franklin faced? Silly to act like those programs aren’t currently at all time highs, especially UM. Joe struggled with average Michigan teams until Carr retired. Would love to get the Rich Rod Wolverines on the current schedule.

Who cares about Joe and what he did his last 10 years. The guy has been dead for just about 12 years. He was a legend, an icon. He was old his last ten years and should have been retired for about 4-5 years by the time 2001 rolled around. The in his prime Joe was the best in the business.

Back to Franklin, versus the competitive set peers of tier 1 coaches he is mediocre. A guy that cannot win big games vs teams of equal or better talent is mediocre. Brutal fact about the guy.

 

[fastlax16]

Who cares about Joe and what he did his last 10 years. The guy has been dead for just about 12 years. He was a legend, an icon. He was old his last ten years and should have been retired for about 4-5 years by the time 2001 rolled around. The in his prime Joe was the best in the business.

Back to Franklin, versus the competitive set peers of tier 1 coaches he is mediocre. A guy that cannot win big games vs teams of equal or better talent is mediocre. Brutal fact about the guy.

That’s what Penn state has been since at least 1993. Joe’s only top ten wins after joining the conference were 05 and 08. Should have been put out to pasture waaay before you’re suggesting. Nothing but mediocre wins for over a decade, including 94.

And @heckmans cared since he chose that time period and I was responding to him. Regardless, we’ve sucked since 1993 as shown above. 1990 ND was the last top 10 victory prior to OSU in 05 I believe. Decade and a half of suck.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I think people are largely talking past each on language which causes conflict. It's all about context.

On the whole of CFB, is PSU 'mediocre?' No.
It's fair to say that PSU is roughly in the 90% percentile of CFB.
But if you put the comments in context, there are not far off. As an example, there are NFL players that get described as mediocre or bad or average. On the whole, there is not a single person in the NFL that fits that description. Even practice squad guys are all in the top 1% of football players. But we judge people in context, against their peers. Player X is a "mediocre NFL player." Again, no NFL player is a mediocre athlete, but a player can be mediocre in the context of other NFL players.

And so we judge JF and PSU, not amongst the aggregate of CFB, but amongst the peers. JF is paid as a tier 1 coach and so he is judged against other tier 1 coaches. Looking at the 2023 season. PSU beat 10 mediocre football teams and were not very competitive against the 3 teams who were NOT mediocre. I don't think it's crazy to note that JFs teams have not been that well coached and he makes head-scratcher decisions far too often. When asked, he'll lean on "the analytics" not taking into account that his team has not performed well on the type of play the analytics were analyzing. Not much seems to have changed on this front in 10 years.

So, in summary, PSU and JF are not a mediocre football program. But JF, in the context of his salary and top CFB programs, is pretty mediocre.
If we throw out JFs first 2 years for "sanctions," and we throw out 2020, and for any unranked season, we assume PSU was ranked 26, then PSU's average ranking during JF's tenure is 12-13. So, with those adjustments, PSU is about a 90% percentile team, but there is a significant difference between 90 and 95-100.
One bit of comparison. JF's ceiling so far is finishing 7th(twice) with another finish at 9. In Paterno's final decade, which included the dark years, he still managed 3 top 10 finishes, including a #3. (Does anyone think Joe recruited better in his final decade than JF has?) As I've said before, the average of JF's results would be accepted by the fan base, if he ever managed to get over the hump. My criticism of JF is not the average, but the evidence that suggests he is not capable of competing with his peer level of coach/program and therefore will only ever win the B1G if his peers all have a down year.

don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the way psu is contract-locked and I think they would have otherwise been justified in making a change this year or next.

just saying, if the plan is to go out and get the trendy name who just took some normally lousy program to a nice record, that is not going to work and could go backwards. at this point the next step for penn state is to get someone on the order of saban, meyer or swinney. although that sounds insane i don't see how going to any level below that is better than what we have, or even likely to improve things

 

[PSUSignore]

Oh look, another I hate Franklin thread that is just like the other dozens of threads where this has already been argued ad nauseum. You guys that hate him are crazy, he's a top 10-15 coach in CFB and we are lucky to have him. Fire him and another program will hire him in a week. He has been slowly dragging the program forward seemingly against the will of the thousands of PSU people stuck in the past and doing it while mostly winning ~10 games a season, having negligible off the field issues and having a team comprised of players we can mostly be proud of as good representatives of PSU. Oh the humanity!

 

[heckmans]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Your definition of mediocre is incorrect.
The root of the word is related to median or average. Average would be 6-6.

Only three of PSU's opponents fall into that category (below mediocre) but the others all won more than 6 games.

If you really want to die on the hill of parsing language and defending the quality of the opponents PSU beat this year, that is your decision. I don't think you're gonna find many defenders there. Iowa was ranked, somehow. No other opponent even got a vote in the polls.

 

[heckmans]

That’s what Penn state has been since at least 1993. Joe’s only top ten wins after joining the conference were 05 and 08. Should have been put out to pasture waaay before you’re suggesting. Nothing but mediocre wins for over a decade, including 94.

And @heckmans cared since he chose that time period and I was responding to him. Regardless, we’ve sucked since 1993 as shown above. 1990 ND was the last top 10 victory prior to OSU in 05 I believe. Decade and a half of suck.

I chose to add the last 10 yrs of Paterno just as a level set. As I stated clearly, Paterno was able to get over the hump, so he gets more slack on down years than the guy that appears to have a lower ceiling. My opinion. You can have yours, which seems to be that we wanting success is too much to ask. So be it.

 

[PennState_one]

I don't for a minute believe that any head coach at this level is "content with being mediocre". I believe he is doing what he believes needs to be done to be elite and isn't deliberately blowing smoke. Also, like others have said, they are NOT mediocre.

 

[fastlax16]

I chose to add the last 10 yrs of Paterno just as a level set. As I stated clearly, Paterno was able to get over the hump, so he gets more slack on down years than the guy that appears to have a lower ceiling. My opinion. You can have yours, which seems to be that we wanting success is too much to ask. So be it.

If you want to call Franklin mediocre you need to say Penn State was mediocre from 1987 to 2004.

 

[LandoComando]

PSU certainly isn’t working with A level NIL money. Perhaps you should donate more if you are unhappy with the results.

Isn't it Franklin's job to find the NIL money he needs. That's as important as recruiting.

 

[PSUcup1]

As has been stated repeatedly in this thread

A. He’s been far better than mediocre

B. It’s absurd to even suggest he’s content with not being the best team in the country

 

[PSU2UNC]

Iowa was ranked, somehow. No other opponent even got a vote in the polls.

Incorrect.
West Virginia and Northwestern also received votes. You are entitled to your opinon but please make sure your facts are correct.

NCAA College Football Rankings: AP Top 25 Football Poll

The official page for the AP Top 25 college football poll, a tradition since 1936. Keep up to date and view the latest ranking updates each week.

apnews.com

 

[heckmans]

Incorrect.
West Virginia and Northwestern also received votes. You are entitled to your opinon but please make sure your facts are correct.

NCAA College Football Rankings: AP Top 25 Football Poll

The official page for the AP Top 25 college football poll, a tradition since 1936. Keep up to date and view the latest ranking updates each week.

apnews.com

Thank you for correcting my gross oversight of neglecting to realize that wvu and NW got points in the final poll(s). When this conversation began, neither were. Certainly, NW getting 2 points in the final poll( ie one voter putting them at 24) changes the entire dynamic of the conversation. I stand corrected. PSU's signature wins of WVU and NW were definitely not mediocre. I have been vanquished. You are correct. PSU football is in an amazing place. I'll never question your solid positions again. Is it alright if I DM you before making future posts? I'd like to get your input so that I don't embarrass myself again. TIA

 

[scrivener]

Thank you for correcting my gross oversight of neglecting to realize that wvu and NW got points in the final poll(s). When this conversation began, neither were. Certainly, NW getting 2 points in the final poll( ie one voter putting them at 24) changes the entire dynamic of the conversation. I stand corrected. PSU's signature wins of WVU and NW were definitely not mediocre. I have been vanquished. You are correct. PSU football is in an amazing place. I'll never question your solid positions again. Is it alright if I DM you before making future posts? I'd like to get your input so that I don't embarrass myself again. TIA

The apologists really do seek every little detail to 'bolster' their argument. It's amazing and actually disappointing to see how JF's messaging seeps through to the masses. "We appreciate winning around here" or "I think we saw two of the best team's in the country" blah blah blah. It's all word salad that people buy into.

 

[voltz99]

As long as the majority of our fan base are apologists like spin meister and the like, Franklin will continue to go without being held accountable. You know that too but won't call them out like I do.

The fans are content being mediocre. Psu has the most alumni but does not generate the most money and subsequently does not put the most money into the program. It's on the fans like you.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Thank you for correcting my gross oversight of neglecting to realize that wvu and NW got points in the final poll(s). When this conversation began, neither were. Certainly, NW getting 2 points in the final poll( ie one voter putting them at 24) changes the entire dynamic of the conversation. I stand corrected. PSU's signature wins of WVU and NW were definitely not mediocre. I have been vanquished. You are correct. PSU football is in an amazing place. I'll never question your solid positions again. Is it alright if I DM you before making future posts? I'd like to get your input so that I don't embarrass myself again. TIA

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but when you try to back up your opinon with data, please make sure that data is correct.

If you would like more data that refutes your point:

PSU only played 4 non-bowl FBS teams (MSU, Illinois, Indiana, and UMass).

Of the 7 bowl teams they played, 5 of them won their bowl games. It's silly to call that mediocre.

 

[heckmans]

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but when you try to back up your opinon with data, please make sure that data is correct.

If you would like more data that refutes your point:

PSU only played 4 non-bowl FBS teams (MSU, Illinois, Indiana, and UMass).

Of the 7 bowl teams they played, 5 of them won their bowl games. It's silly to call that mediocre.

PSU2UNC preparing his next reply 🙄🙄

 

[PSU2UNC]

PSU2UNC preparing his next reply 🙄🙄

Nothing to reply to.

 

[ryoder1]

The apologists really do seek every little detail to 'bolster' their argument. It's amazing and actually disappointing to see how JF's messaging seeps through to the masses. "We appreciate winning around here" or "I think we saw two of the best team's in the country" blah blah blah. It's all word salad that people buy into.

How about the disingenuous fake...."I appreciate you all coming out to cover Penn State football". Like he's the field hockey coach at Lock Haven. Spare me this fake I'm so humble crap.

Here's the deal.....Franklin achieved ZERO big wins in 2023. ZERO. He needed to beat either (did not have to beat both) Ohio State or Michigan and the season in my mind would have been a success. He could not do it so the season is a disappointment.

 

[PSU2UNC]

How about the disingenuous fake...."I appreciate you all coming out to cover Penn State football". Like he's the field hockey coach at Lock Haven. Spare me this fake I'm so humble crap.

Here's the deal.....Franklin achieved ZERO big wins in 2023. ZERO. He needed to beat either (did not have to beat both) Ohio State or Michigan and the season in my mind would have been a success. He could not do it so the season is a disappointment.

He had 10 big wins. If you don't appreciate that, you don't really understand CFB.

 

[OKLionFan]

View embedded media

Yes I know its not a new video but just rehashing. The comment ,"we haven't won as much as everyone wants" is not what I want to hear from my head coach. He's got his big contract and maybe he's just content with winning the games he should.

How many times in his career has he said that he needs to do a better job as a coach/taken resonsibility?

I respectfully disagree with the premise of your question that 4 eleven and one ten win seasons in 10 years is mediocre.

 

[crm114psu]

Incorrect.
West Virginia and Northwestern also received votes. You are entitled to your opinon but please make sure your facts are correct.

NCAA College Football Rankings: AP Top 25 Football Poll

The official page for the AP Top 25 college football poll, a tradition since 1936. Keep up to date and view the latest ranking updates each week.

apnews.com

This would have more credibility if you actually knew how to spell.

 

[heckmans]

He had 10 big wins. If you don't appreciate that, you don't really understand CFB.

Just to clarify, you are stating that understanding CFB means classifying Delaware, UMASS, and Rutgers as big wins. Do you really think you are helping your overall case here?

 

[voltz99]

Just to clarify, you are stating that understanding CFB means classifying Delaware, UMASS, and Rutgers as big wins. Do you really think you are helping your overall case here?

Did you count Joes wins vs Temple, Rutgers, WVU, BC, Syracuse, Army, Navy, Airforce, Maryland, and a random MAC school each year? What is 409 - all the slop wins?

 

[heckmans]

Did you count Joes wins vs Temple, Rutgers, WVU, BC, Syracuse, Army, Navy, Airforce, Maryland, and a random MAC school each year? What is 409 - all the slop wins?

Not sure what you are asserting. You are saying something very different than UNC. FTR, no one ever counted a win against temple as a big win.
Let's please go back to the beginning... It was asserted that having 10 wins is a mark of success. Some of us have noted that none of those 10 wins were against teams of any real quality and that PSU played 3 quality teams and wasn't very competitive in any of them.

 

[fastlax16]

Not sure what you are asserting. You are saying something very different than UNC. FTR, no one ever counted a win against temple as a big win.
Let's please go back to the beginning... It was asserted that having 10 wins is a mark of success. Some of us have noted that none of those 10 wins were against teams of any real quality and that PSU played 3 quality teams and wasn't very competitive in any of them.

Which win in 94 was a team of real quality? 4 loss Michigan or 4 loss osu or 4 loss Oregon?

 

[scrivener]

Not sure what you are asserting. You are saying something very different than UNC. FTR, no one ever counted a win against temple as a big win.
Let's please go back to the beginning... It was asserted that having 10 wins is a mark of success. Some of us have noted that none of those 10 wins were against teams of any real quality and that PSU played 3 quality teams and wasn't very competitive in any of them.

Voltz can't dispute any criticism of JF without bringing up Joe....it's ridiculous.

 

[ryoder1]

Which win in 94 was a team of real quality? 4 loss Michigan or 4 loss osu or 4 loss Oregon?

I guess none of them were big wins then to be fair although beating a ranked Michigan team (at the time) on the road was impressive. And he did it with his team making the clutch plays in the 4th quarter, something Franklin's teams rarely do.

But here's the deal, Joe won every game that year and really had a share of the national championship. If Franklin was able to win all his games against mediocre teams then win the NC then great. Unfortunately that scenario will never happen so it is useless to pontificate about it.

If you really want an apples to apples comparison compare Joe from '68-'90 versus Franklin '16-'23. Joe in his prime and I guess Franklin in his prime. Yeah I know Joe did not have to navigate the gauntlet of the B10 every year but his list of big wins during that time just goes on and on not to mention the two national championships. My guess is Joe's record in big games stacks up quite favorably versus our friend James's record.

 

[fastlax16]

I guess none of them were big wins then to be fair although beating a ranked Michigan team (at the time) on the road was impressive. And he did it with his team making the clutch plays in the 4th quarter, something Franklin's teams rarely do.

But here's the deal, Joe won every game that year and really had a share of the national championship. If Franklin was able to win all his games against mediocre teams then win the NC then great. Unfortunately that scenario will never happen so it is useless to pontificate about it.

If you really want an apples to apples comparison compare Joe from '68-'90 versus Franklin '16-'23. Joe in his prime and I guess Franklin in his prime. Yeah I know Joe did not have to navigate the gauntlet of the B10 every year but his list of big wins during that time just goes on and on not to mention the two national championships. My guess is Joe's record in big games stacks up quite favorably versus our friend James's record.

If you want the numbers run the numbers. If you think college football in the 70s is the same as today, agree to disagree.

Joe took 17 years to win a natty. Prior to that 3 undefeated seasons.

The 68 11-0 team didn’t play a single ranked team til the bowl game.

69. 1 ranked team (#17 WVU) before the bowl game.

73. #20 Pitt was the only ranked team during the regular season.

Not putting in the work to find final polls from then. Quick glance at rankings at kickoff.

66- no ranked wins. Lost to 1 msu 4 ucla and 5 ga tech
67- beat 3 nc state. Lost to 3 ucla
68- discussed above. Beat 6 Kansas in bowl game
69. Discussed above- beat #17 wvu. Beat 6 Mizzou in bowl.
70. Lost to number 18 Colorado.
71. Lost to 12 Tennessee. Beat 12 Texas in bowl.
72. Lost to 7 Tennessee. Beat 18 wvu. Lost to 2 Oklahoma in bowl.
73. Discussed above. Beat 20 Pitt. Beat 13 LSU in bowl.
74. Beat 20 Stanford. Beat 15 Maryland. Beat 18 pitt. Beat 12 baylor.
75. Lost to 3 osu. Beat 10 wvu. Beat 15 md. Beat 17 Pitt. Lost to 4 bama in bowl.

So there are joes first ten years. Franklin's been here for ten years so apples to apples right?

Played 8 top 10 teams (at game time) during the regular season across that entire decade. Went 2-6.

Played another 4 in bowl games and went 2-2.

4 seasons with no top ten opponents.

Against the top 5 he was 1-7 regular and post season.

Fwiw Polls in 66-67 only had 10 teams.

 

[lazydave841]

f you want the numbers run the numbers. If you think college football in the 70s is the same as today, agree to disagree.

Saban changed perceptions about winning from '09 to '23. Compared to his predecessors (and some peers), he got to take advantage of the 4 team playoff and won titles that others didn't have a similar chance to. His amount of winning has people ready to move on from a coach like Dabo after 2 years in which Clemson wasn't one of the 4 best teams after he's won 2 titles.

 

[heckmans]

Saban changed perceptions about winning from '09 to '23. Compared to his predecessors (and some peers), he got to take advantage of the 4 team playoff and won titles that others didn't have a similar chance to. His amount of winning has people ready to move on from a coach like Dabo after 2 years in which Clemson wasn't one of the 4 best teams after he's won 2 titles.

FWIW, I'm not down on JF because of expectations created by Saban. As Ive stated to fastlax and others when they list Paterno's record, he gets a lot of slack bc he got over the hump. He had a ceiling of #1 and had multiple undefeated seasons. My criticism of JF is that his ceiling is currently #7 and 2 losses, but it's beyond that. It's not like PSU is rocking and has just gotten beat by better teams. It's the actual coaching that seems to be holding PSU back. I don't see JF as being on the cusp of greatness. It's been a decade and we see the same controllable issues.

 

[Mufasa94]

If you want the numbers run the numbers. If you think college football in the 70s is the same as today, agree to disagree.

True, but it isn’t like the rest of cfb was playing overly demanding schedules at that time.

Joe took 17 years to win a natty. Prior to that 3 undefeated seasons.

Why don’t you use final rankings in your post? See responses below:

The 68 11-0 team didn’t play a single ranked team til the bowl game.

69. 1 ranked team (#17 WVU) before the bowl game.

In ‘69, PSU had played 2 (CU and WVU). Texas had played 1 (Arkansas).

73. #20 Pitt was the only ranked team during the regular season.

PSU had played 2 (NC St and MD). ND had played 1 (at home vs. USC).

Not putting in the work to find final polls from then. Quick glance at rankings at kickoff.

66- no ranked wins. Lost to 1 msu 4 ucla and 5 ga tech
67- beat 3 nc state. Lost to 3 ucla
68- discussed above. Beat 6 Kansas in bowl game
69. Discussed above- beat #17 wvu. Beat 6 Mizzou in bowl.
70. Lost to number 18 Colorado.
71. Lost to 12 Tennessee. Beat 12 Texas in bowl.
72. Lost to 7 Tennessee. Beat 18 wvu. Lost to 2 Oklahoma in bowl.
73. Discussed above. Beat 20 Pitt. Beat 13 LSU in bowl.
74. Beat 20 Stanford. Beat 15 Maryland. Beat 18 pitt. Beat 12 baylor.
75. Lost to 3 osu. Beat 10 wvu. Beat 15 md. Beat 17 Pitt. Lost to 4 bama in bowl.

So there are joes first ten years. Franklin's been here for ten years so apples to apples right?

I hope you aren’t trying to insinuate the amount of success each had in the respective timeframes are equal.

 

[lowhandicapper]

This thread is comical.
James Franklin is not Nick Saban, Joe Paterno or Bear Bryant. Neither are 99.9% of other coaches.
Having an expectation of him aligning his success with such is fools gold.
James Franklin's record of his decade of service crushes Joe Paterno's final decade of service.
Franklin is not elite at anything, good at many things, elite at nothing, but name me the current college football coaches that are? The number is less than the fingers on your right hand.
The only mediocrity in the PSU program are the opinions of old fools, past livers, of this board.
Penn State is a blue blood that finishes in the top 10 quite regularly. Which is more than most can say.
Penn State can't even win their side of their conference but somehow people think they should be in the national title game annually, which is only a joke on themselves and a complete suspension of reality.
Currently only LSU, Georgia, Alabama and Ohio State are the only programs built to regularly contend for the championship.

 

[fastlax16]

True, but it isn’t like the rest of cfb was playing overly demanding schedules at that time.

Why don’t you use final rankings in your post? See responses below:

In ‘69, PSU had played 2 (CU and WVU). Texas had played 1 (Arkansas).

PSU had played 2 (NC St and MD). ND had played 1 (at home vs. USC).

I hope you aren’t trying to insinuate the amount of success each had in the respective timeframes are equal.

I’m insinuating that college football is drastically different and it’s dumb to compare, but everyone wants to hold him to Joe’s standard, which invites comparison.

I didn’t do end of year polls because frankly I don’t have time to cross reference every season. It’s easy for big ten seasons because the final conference standings also including the final ap poll rating. Nothing like that exists for the independent seasons. Feel free to do it if you’re so inclined.

 

[ryoder1]

If you want the numbers run the numbers. If you think college football in the 70s is the same as today, agree to disagree.

Joe took 17 years to win a natty. Prior to that 3 undefeated seasons.

The 68 11-0 team didn’t play a single ranked team til the bowl game.

69. 1 ranked team (#17 WVU) before the bowl game.

73. #20 Pitt was the only ranked team during the regular season.

Not putting in the work to find final polls from then. Quick glance at rankings at kickoff.

66- no ranked wins. Lost to 1 msu 4 ucla and 5 ga tech
67- beat 3 nc state. Lost to 3 ucla
68- discussed above. Beat 6 Kansas in bowl game
69. Discussed above- beat #17 wvu. Beat 6 Mizzou in bowl.
70. Lost to number 18 Colorado.
71. Lost to 12 Tennessee. Beat 12 Texas in bowl.
72. Lost to 7 Tennessee. Beat 18 wvu. Lost to 2 Oklahoma in bowl.
73. Discussed above. Beat 20 Pitt. Beat 13 LSU in bowl.
74. Beat 20 Stanford. Beat 15 Maryland. Beat 18 pitt. Beat 12 baylor.
75. Lost to 3 osu. Beat 10 wvu. Beat 15 md. Beat 17 Pitt. Lost to 4 bama in bowl.

So there are joes first ten years. Franklin's been here for ten years so apples to apples right?

Played 8 top 10 teams (at game time) during the regular season across that entire decade. Went 2-6.

Played another 4 in bowl games and went 2-2.

4 seasons with no top ten opponents.

Against the top 5 he was 1-7 regular and post season.

Fwiw Polls in 66-67 only had 10 teams.

Just stop trying to hold Franklin up to Joe. Joe competed when he did. The modern day Joe, meaning if Joe was Franklin's age would be a much better coach than Franklin. And I guarantee you he would have gotten us into a 4 team playoff at least one time.

I guess you are trying to say Joe's teams never played anybody and we need to discount all his wins? And somehow the two national championships were achieved without any big wins. The guy won a ton of bowl games versus teams of equal talent! How many wins does Franklin have like that? OSU in '16, Washington in '17. Michigan in '17 and '19 (skip Covid year) and I guess Utah last year. Totally disagree with whatever point you are trying to make but you can believe what you want.

You should be more concerned about whether our current coach who gets paid 9 million a year and has $70 million guaranteed from PSU can ever beat OSU or Michigan again and whether he now can beat USC or Oregon ever.