I've gotten the chance to watch Lightner several times over the last couple of years. Kid is really good.
Rolled through Jersey states last year in a pretty tough weight class as a junior.
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Rolled through Jersey states last year in a pretty tough weight class as a junior.
And lose a year for the privilege, which is when it *does* look a little crazy. If there is a family health crisis involved, why has everything been so hush-hush. Just say (a long time ago) that there is an unspecified family matter that requires his transfer. The way it has been handled makes it seems that is not the reason.
Pretty good, not too bad and ain't too shabby is not going to cut it when the programs above you are recruiting "better".
Yup, while RU gets the Lightners, which is great, PSU and Iowa get the Beards and Warners. Tough to keep up with that.
Good for you but again: which of the top 10-13 teams is this better than?
We should still hold a bonus advantage. Our 5 national champs alone scored 28 bonus points. I don't see that changing much in the negative direction, even if they don't all repeat as champs.
We scored a total of 18.5 points at our other 5 weights. I don't see that going in a negative direction either, so basically the Bucks need to find a way to improve 30 or more points over last year.
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Assuming no injuries, all Suriano leaving means is no record points possible. Will just have to wait a few years for that.
we are not going to get to the top 10 over night... to be a consistent top 10 team it will take time for a rising program.....where RU wrestling has gotten to from a decade ago is already tremendous. RU is headed in the right direction...if you can't see the steady progression and the hotbed for talent NJ wrestling is then ur fooling urself.
So then safe to say that Rutgers is not "likely top 10" as was proclaimed earlier.
As far as who's fooling themselves: Rutgers needs to prove it can outrecruit Drexel before putting themselves in the top 10. No slight to Drexel, they've picked up a number of good wrestlers in 2017 and 2018, but nobody's putting them in the top 10.
I do agree with you that Rutgers should be top 10 with its recruiting pool. Actually, Rutgers should be top 5. So should Pitt.
Berge, Verk, Manville, and Lee. Hard to believe this class doesn't get props. Next year freakin sick, and could still add Teske. Hard to fathom losing Suriano is a mere hiccup in the dynasty. #3000
ok, if he is gone, I can't wait to find the reason why. Nick is a very focused and goal driven young man. Something had to change that... what was on the boardwalk?
Part of what you say is true. Rutgers is a lot better than they were 10 years ago and they are improving. But the progression has been less than "steady", as last year showed. And the program is very senior-heavy this year.
The one thing that is always puzzling is how poorly top NJ high school wrestlers do in college. Mike Grey, Pat Lynch, Scott Winston in the not-too-distant past are three that were nearly unbeatable (or undefeated) in high school and did nothing at the collegiate level. A lot of others were, frankly, disappointing. The "miss" ratio has been shockingly high.
You are kidding, right? Darrion Caldwell, Jordan Burroughs, James Green, Zach Rey, Frank Molinaro. Based on the size of the state, that's an insane amount of talent that did well at the college level and beyond in the recent past.
Matter, I realize I didn't really respond directly to your post but every state has plenty of top wrestlers that don't really produce. Nicky Roberts was one of the best HS wrestlers I have ever seen. Jimmy G was a beast in HS. Kenny Courts was phenomenal as well. The Peppelmans as well. Whether it's injuries or lifestyle choices, college success is based on so much more than just raw talent which everyone we both mentioned had in spades.
First, Jordan Burroughs won one state title, so he doesn't really qualify as a top high school performer. Caldwell won one NCAA title. Molinaro won one. James Green won none. Zach Rey won one. Add the three guys I mentioned and seven top NJ high school wrestlers in history won a total of three titles in college. We're going to forget Andrew Campolattano. Ashnault had the best career of anyone at the point he graduated high school and he hasn't hit the top of the podium. Add them in and you have nine of the top NJ high school wrestlers of all time and you have three combined titles. I'm not kidding. The miss rate has been disproportionately high.
Second, NJ is a very populous state. So the level of achievement in college is not so insane. In fact, it's a little disappointing.
Third, if you look at guys that have one more than one NCAA title over the last 10 years (2008-2017), only one is from NJ (Burroughs) and he only won one title in high school. If you are wondering about three-time titlists from NJ - there is one. Mike Caruso. That was over 50 years ago.
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Would you call Mike Kemerer not a top HS performer since he only won 1 state title? Ed Ruth?
Yes. They are not among the top PA high school wrestlers in history in terms of high school performance.
There should be some interesting matches this year involving Buckeyes wrestling other teams. For instance, how do you think Kemerer vs Micah will go? How about Cambpell vs the Bull? You'll also have Campbell vs Imar, how about Hayes vs Heil? How will Joey fare against Brandon Sorenson, who was very impressive against everyone not named Zain at Nationals. Pletcher at 133, will he face Seth Gross this year or Kaid Brock? That's just off the top of my head, there might be a bunch more of those matches in that the new look Buckeyes at new weights will be on the mats. Oh, how about Downey vs Moore?
And yet both were ranked #1 in the nation at their weights and were top 10 (5?) overall recruits.
Meanwhile Devin Brown was not a top recruit despite his 3 PA titles.
Point being that # state titles is not a solid criterion by itself. And where they fit in state history is wholly irrelevant.
Don't expect Campbell to give Martinez much of a match.
Martin or Moore vs. Zahid, now we're talking.
Also BoJo vs. Lewis.
Oh, Daniel Lewis is movin on up? Then BoJo vs Lewis has electric potential. Agree on Zahid v Martin.
You have me very confused. I'm saying the top NJ high schoolers of all time in terms of performance in high school have done very poorly at the college level overall. So their high school performance is precisely relevant.
And, besides, anecdotal exceptions don't disprove a rule.
Do I really need to spell it out? Successful coaches recruit for future projection. Idiots recruit for past performance and places in HS history.
Additionally you said 3x NJ state champ Caldwell was only a 1x NCAA champ, as if they grow on trees.
To circle back to the topic: Rutgers' problem is its inability to land that not all time talent listed above. Non champ Green would be their most successful wrestler since I was born, if not ever.
I was looking at how many championships the "successful" wrestlers cited by our friend actually won. Caldwell won one. Damion Hahn, for example, won 2. Donnie Pritzlaff, on the Rutgers staff, won two. Matt Valenti from Jefferson won 2. Joe Dubuque, who I coached against in junior high, won 2. Hahn is the only one who could be said to be among the best NJ high school wrestlers.
I just can't agree with you. If you took the top 10 high school wrestlers in PA (or Ohio or Iowa or New York or ...) history and compared their performance in college with the top 10 in NJ, you would start scratching your head. It is, as I said in my initial post, puzzling.
If you are saying high school performance doesn't automatically translate to college performance, I have no argument.
And part of Rutgers' problem is what they do when they *do* land that talent. You'll note the ones on the list that did win championships didn't do it if they went to New Brunswick.
The discussion of great NJ high school wrestlers not to include Darryl Burley is joke. He was something like 95-5 for Lehigh. He won NCAAs his Freshman and Senior year's. His only losses were to national champions Lewis and Gibbons.
Damien Hahn and Steve Mocco should also be on the list. Hahn probably gave Sanderson his toughest college match losing 4-3.
Let it be noted I'm a PSU fan but live 20 minutes from Blair and have seen some good NJ talent over the years.
Kellen Russell wrestled at Blair, which is not really a NJ high school program. Mocco was, as I recall, a St. Benedicts and Blair product, so again, not part of the NJSIAA.
Burley was amazing, but I can't find out how he did in high school. Hahn is definitely on the list, which is why I mentioned him.
I haven't done a thorough statistical analysis by any means, but it's always puzzled me, particularly for the more recent past, the last 10 years or so.
IDK how you would go about defining the top 10 wrestlers in PA history, but it has been well documented that the 4x champs have been all over the place in college.
So have the 3x champs. For every Jason Nolf and Nico Megaludis, you have at least a Chris Kwortnik and Joey Wildasin.
Burley was 86-5 in high school. I don't think he wrestled his Freshman year. He got better every year. He was 3rd his Junior year and his senior year he defeated a returning State champ in finals to win OW award. At Lehigh he made the NCAA finals all 4 years, winning his first and fourth year. If I remember he suffered a real serious wrist injury his Junior year and they didn't think he could wrestle in the tournament. Made it all the way finals. He truly was a special wrestler.
PSU wrestling=best in collegeNot to split hairs but....likely top 10 with NS...assume you're referring to 2018-19 after Nick sits a year?
Perhaps your username should be changed from Rubigtimenow to Rubigtimeayearfromnow
Signed....PSU fan on high horse
RU wrestling=mediocre
PSU education=top rated
RU education=mediocre
Complete head scratcher as to why Benedict Nick would downgrade.
Signed by Penn State fan on my .
Haven't read the last few pages.. no longer any hope of him staying I suppose but is there anything in the last 2 pages of this thread that is concrete or still same old speculation?
While it might not be the only criterion, Devin Brown is certainly a more accomplished high school wrestler than Kemmerer. Kemmerer is a much better college prospect but his high school resume does not compare to Devin Brown's.
I'd take Kemdawg over Brown any day of the week at the NCAA level, though.
Nothing definitive as too why Nick is leaving. To summarize the possible reasons who knows if anyone is true:
1. Homesick
2. MMA Training
3. Lack of training partners
4. S&C program
5. Did not like how PSU/Cael handled the injury
6. Did not like how Cael talked about the injury
7. Scholarship package
8. Dad is a nut
9. Wants to be a big fish in a small pond - center of attention
10. Weight class
You have missed nothing, but thanks for your contribution
#3000 ... it's the only reason I check this thread any longer. I am looking to be Mr 3000 (wasn't that a movie!!)
While interesting in part, no practical or usable information, unless you are in the process of learning about NJ wrestling. I was looking for more exciting stuff. Then Lyons had to go and ruin it by mentioning the topic
Maybe the coursework is too hard for him. His rational thought process is, IMO, suspect.
Similarly, I haven't read anything on here since Thursday. As of Thursday, popular opinion seemed to be that he was coming back. Was there something that came out to change that? Now it seems like the thought is he's not coming back. I think I've missed 5-7 pages so I don't have time for that type of light reading.
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