Mason Manville
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How's this for scary: in 2 years we might be legitimately saying Tan Logan's 2 wins over Zain were more impressive than Dake's wins over Taylor.
(Yes, I know Zain won the first time, but we all knew that was due to a long bus ride, the flu, and an average official.)
(Yes, I know Zain won the first time, but we all knew that was due to a long bus ride, the flu, and an average official.)
I see what you're saying, but I don't think wins over Freshman Zain are or will be more impressive than Junior Taylor. Port also beat Zain later that year. No one else beat Taylor up to that point in over a year, or even came remotely close (except Hatchett when he was sick)
Dake won as a true freshman then moved up to 149 and beat Molinaro who would go on the to win the following year. Then he moved up to 157 and defeated St. John who would go on to win the following year. Then he moved up to 165 and defeated DT who would go on to win the following year. That is a super impressive run. Then throw in the fact Stieber's win over Oliver was highly questionable and I think Dake had a more impressive career.
That's why I put "between the two" because I figured someone would put Ed, DT, or Zain
Streibler beat Oliver (2X), Ramos (1X), Brewer (1X) and Zain (1X). Now, what Dake did was impressive (no Red Shirt, consecutive weights) but he underwhelmed offensively and always seemed one lucky throw away from getting beat. For example, in the first round of NCAAs his senior year, he only beat Mark Martin 3-0. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Streibler wrestled in a tougher conference. He had to beat Ramos a bunch. He also had to wrestle Zain three times in one season.
Admittedly, I rooted for DT in each and every match he ever wrestled against Dake and Dake just seemed like a tool (probably a great guy in person). But to me, I measure greatness by what they do in March (Streibler) and who they do it against (split). That is why Streibler is my second best four timer.
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This^
Also, I'm still pissed Dake beat Taylor. Sometimes I hold grudges...
Dake = tool was cemented for me with his theatrics in olympic qualifying.
Steiber also caught some very fortunate breaks, from average officials, during his first two NCAA titles. Dakes titles never really came down to average officials. Hard to be considered 2nd best, in my book, when you have average officials involved in half of your 4 titles.
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From the linked report:
Teasdale caps season with state titleThat would make Teasdale 17 at this time, in 2016.
Teasdale, 13, is from Rices Landing and attends Jefferson-Morgan Junior High School
- Jul 27, 2012
http://www.heraldstandard.com/gcm/s...cle_e1f28d25-16bc-565c-805f-b8d45ef66c16.html
Unless he had a birthday in the last week or so.
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However, Teasdale is not in the 2017 Class, like Spencer Lee.
Gavin is in the 2018 Class. That will make him 18 years old, before he begins his classes as a senior next year in 2017.
Depending upon when his birthday hits, it appears that Teasdale will still be competing as a Junior in HS this year as a 17 or 18-year old and the following year as a Senior in HS as an 18 or a 19-year old wrestler.
From a Flo article:
Pennsylvania wrestling stars Spencer Lee, Gavin Teasdale commit (early) to compete for Iowa
By Jim Carlson | Special to PennLive
on April 20, 2016 at 8:21 PM, updated April 21, 2016 at 9:04 AM
Both wearing a blue Young Guns Wrestling tee-shirt, Lee and Teasdale made their announcements on Flo Wrestling Monday night. Lee is Flo's No. 1 pound-for-pound high school wrestler in the Class of 2017. Teasdale is No. 3 in the Class of 2018.
http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2016/04/pennsylvania_wrestling_stars_s.html
My son will turn 17 in mid August and will be starting his Junior year shortly. Like many boys who have late birthdays he was held back prior to starting school. I don't believe this is unusual, and I don't see any controversy here.
No controversy unless he plays a sport, particularly wrestling. Nobody cares how old the captain of the chess club is.
*Edit
No controversy unless he excels at wrestling. Nobody cares how old the JV kid is.
Although it is definitely not unusual, as someone who went to kindergarten when I was 4, it is definitely an advantage and should be more tightly controlled, with a tighter window, when we are talking about the world of competitive sports. Way too many parents are trying to rig a big competive advantage for their kid.
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There is a huge physical advantage between a "normal" 18 year old and a 16 year old. There are some that mature earlier, and can equal the physical development. But not all that many.
I have one son with an October birthday-so he is older for his class. But not as old, or as physically mature, as a couple around that had a late birthday, and then their parents used a "redshirt" year in second grade, just for athletic reasons.
My other son is the youngest in his class-he will still be wrestling 12U as an 8th grader. His freshman year will be murder, as he will probably see a few 18-19 year olds. And probably get the sh*t kicked out of him. But academically and socially, he is ahead of the curve, so I can't really see holding him back.
Not fair, really-but it is within the rules. I don't know the individuals being discussed, so no way for me to judge.
I have one son with an October birthday-so he is older for his class. But not as old, or as physically mature, as a couple around that had a late birthday, and then their parents used a "redshirt" year in second grade, just for athletic reasons.
My other son is the youngest in his class-he will still be wrestling 12U as an 8th grader. His freshman year will be murder, as he will probably see a few 18-19 year olds. And probably get the sh*t kicked out of him. But academically and socially, he is ahead of the curve, so I can't really see holding him back.
Not fair, really-but it is within the rules. I don't know the individuals being discussed, so no way for me to judge.
You're exactly right. In my case, I was able to hold my own, but there is a big difference between two 18 year old seniors competing, versus a 17 year old senior competing against a 19 year old senior and I like the word you used. Let's call it what it is, some get a redshirt year and some do not.
I graduated high school at 16. 3 time finalist, no time champion. Played football in JUCO-if I would have been as developed my senior year in HS as I was after my second year in college (at 18), who knows?
To be fair, according to a poster on TheMat currently downgrading Zain - a poster called cm_111 who allegedly wrestled for the Buckeyes (cm = CJ Magrum???), Logan practically arose from the casket to gallantly battle Zain. I kid you not. Here's a choice nugget:
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"What "evidence" are you referring to? I never dismiss any actual factual material but I have never seen a single piece presented outside of speculation and opinion. What I know for a fact is that ZR has beaten one single wrestler worth note in collegiate style which substantiates my statement of him only beating one viable opponent (one time), I also know that Pico has proven himself superior on his feet/in freestyle which is also substantiated with actual fact based on their matches, and, finally, I know, for a fact, that his weight class last season was one of the weakest 149 lb divisions we have (likely) seen in over two decades. Those are all facts. Everything else I have read is opinion or speculation. Thus my opinion of Retherford is, as stated, he is an above average champion and nothing really to be wow'd by. He isn't at the level of the elite guys we see come/go every decade or so. Does that make him bad? Absolutely not, he is a champion and is the opposite of bad but I simply do not see him as some stud who would have taken out guys like Metcalf who battled better competition in preliminary rounds than ZR did in his finals. Metcalf faced Caldwell (Champion), Burroughs (2x Champion), Palmer (4x AA), Jenkins (Champion), etc. Who has ZR faced outside of his losses at the NCAA to two studs. He beat one person, one time, and Logan was practically on his death bed during that DM. That just doesn't impress me to the level of some of these studs we have seen in recent years. To me, Nolf has all the potential to become one of those guys. I guess it's just one of those things we will have to wait and see about. . ."
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Of course this is the same genius whose fantastically overinflated views of Lance Palmer's skills has led to our recurring "legendary" Lance Palmer memes.
I'd love to read his analysis of Jake Ryan.
I've never really understood why some people on this board seem to discredit Logan because of some garbage his coach spouted. As far as I know, Logan has never made excuses for his performances on the mat. Obviously randoms on some forum are going to illogically defend Logan. He made their program a destination.
In regards to that poster's comments: If Zain had been at a weight other than 41 his True Freshman Year he very well might have become an undefeated 4 time champ. As is, he'll have to settle for 3 titles, 3 losses and 1-2 Hodge Trophies.
Logan is the man. Some of his fans suck and Ryan's excuses were lame.
Zain grinding Mojo (or whatever the hell his nickname is) into mush will be all the more enjoyable next year due to those turds.
Some really bad opinions coming from Ohio State wrestlers lately.
Ohio State is always a good match and this will make it a tad better. Nothing is better than beating Iowa but they will be close, I think.
He forgot the long bus ride and average official.
If Stieber was practically on his death bed, why did Tan Tom let him wrestle? Or maybe Magrum truly believes Ryan was negligent.
Different wrestlers and different styles. I'm with Chickenman Testa. Dake did it without a redshirt which is extremely impressive. Dake didn't need any breaks except against DT.
Although you have a point regarding fairness you, I personally don't see how anyone should have a say in how someone else raises their child.
Hey it is within the rules. I never gave advise on raising someone else's kid. I was only making the point that it is a big advantage.
AKA- Jered Cortez. By the time he graduates from PSU he will be on Social Security.
I think this topic is more geared to high school. In college most have reached full growth and maturity by the time they graduate. Not so in high school.Two years ahead is a big advantage
Since the discussion keeps swaying this way I'm glad you brought this up. The holdbacks are only older than the rest of the high school kids for a year (sometimes 2) and before that are as young or younger than the upperclassmen in high school. Just about all the kids that are older for their grade are not only beating kids in age level events (no advantage there) but while they were 15/16 yrs old in high school they were beating the 17/18/19 yr old jrs and srs. They win/won those matches as 15/16 yr olds not because they were older but because they were better. That didn't change when they turned 18/19 yrs old, they are still winning those matches because they are better not because they are older. There are not many cases that we can speak to where the kid was a nobody until he was the 19 year old that was older than everybody else in high school and took advantage of his "advantage". And it all evens out in college when all are grown men, right?
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The righteousness part is questioning why the student/athletes parents feel the need to hold their kids back 1 to 2 years for an athletic advantage. The way I look at it, it costs the kid 1 to 2 years of income. Compound that 30 to 60K for 40 years and its a lot of missed retirement income.
The fandom part we as fans wound root for 40 year old Freshman if they help the team win.
So your saying the 15's and 16's who are beating the 17/18/19 aren't going to get any better in the next few years, or those 17/18/19 didn't get better then when they were 15/16? It does make a difference in High School, then why does the majority of the parent hold there son back a year or two?
Not quite sure what you're asking. To simplify my point, a 15/16 year old kid that is beating everyone in high school does it because he's the better wrestler. If that same kid is still in high school at 19 years old and beating kids its because he's the better wrestler not because he's the older wrestler.
As to why parents do it, people have different reasons. Some of the reasons I beleive are valid (actually beneficial) and some not so much. This is America and to each their own. I don't try to parent other people's kids and reserve passing judgement on such things as we all see it differently and try to do our best with/for our own.
I do believe holding kids back can be beneficial in athletics as well as other areas in life but it's not as simple as being physically more mature because you're a 19 yr old high schooler. I know this thread went off the track but my thoughts on holdback benefits are too expansive to detail in a thread wondering where Manville fits in PSU's future. Off season bar stool conversation.
I believe you are talking about top notch wrestlers and you are right they are winning at pretty much any age comparison because they are superior wrestlers. Age doesn't matter in that equation. Let's use Mark Hall as an example. I was referring to someone like myself, who was an average PA wrestler. Made it to regionals three times, but never qualified for states. At my level, if you run across a guy 2 years older, that is also a decent average wrestler it's a whole different ballgame for the guy 2 years younger.
Nobody complains about decent/average wrestlers. There will be zero threads devoted to the age of a kid who is a 2x state qualifier and finally places 6th as a senior. But there have been plenty threads across multiple forums addressing the ages of holdbacks that were not the older kids when winning in high school as 15/16/17 year olds. This thread is exhibit A
So my question to you is everything else being equal, does an age advantage mean anything? Two equally elite wrestlers, one a sophomore and the other a senior, who wins the majority of the time?
Why would people complain about average HS wrestlers age on a PSU wrestling forum? It happens at the gym in the stands.
I invite you to read a book called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell. In it, he tackles this very subject (among other fascinating subjects). He researched NHL hockey players by birth date. His conclusion is that a 10-12 month age gap makes a significant difference in athletes at a young age, let alone two years.
Only an idiot would argue as to whether or not it is an advantage. It clearly is. I don't sit in judgement of those who would like to give the offspring an advantage. Private coaching is an advantage. Great nutrition is an advantage. The most competitive people will always find advantages through any means possible. It is in our nature to try and win.
Bingo. Not to mention even if there was a strict age requirement for when you start 9th grade there would still be a 12 month difference in age in each grade which means the oldest senior would be 4 years older than the youngest frosh. Actually, wrestling there is probably less of an advantage difference overall than any other sport because of the weight classes. In all other sports a frosh, soph, etc. is not only competing against older kids but mostly bigger kids.
My thoughts on the subject are for the most part in line with "Outliers" with a few other things tossed in for athletics as well as other areas in life. Definitely an advantage but that advantage is deeper than being physically more mature in high school. Hold a kid back in 7th/8th grade? Meh. Delay them entering kindergarten? Now you are on to something.
I didn't limit the discussion to a PSU wrestling forum. But even in the gym in the stands the the age of an average wrestler who was held back is not discussed nearly as much as the age of the stud holdback as though his age is the reason he's winning the match. As a freshman in my kid's 1st high school tournament he ran into Jared Cortez in the finals and kept it to a relatively close match (I think 5-4). Plenty of people in the gym remarked Cortez won that match because he was an 18 year old hs junior. I didn't see it that way. Cortez was the better wrestler and proved it later that season when he tech'd him in the state semi finals. A lot of people in Illinois threw shade Cortez's way because of his age but they always ignored the fact that he wasn't older than most of the better kids until the final year or 2 of high school. He had already collected a couple state titles before then as well as winning at age based events (Fargo) all throughout high school.
