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Memory Issues

Flat denials don't help situations like this either. We differ here, sorry you cannot handle it.

Handle what exactly ? I'm confused as to what you are indicating that I cannot handle

There are a lot of things that anger me about this whole situation (including some things with Joe))
I'm only stating that he handled 2001 correctly and that it wasn't a 'mistake'
 
Mistakes were made and you don't have regrets if you think you didn't miss a thing. It wasn't intentional I think, but I know some cannot even fathom someone who appreciated Joe saying he made a mistake. Just one month ago people here flat out denied he knew ANYTHING at all about 98. Well, he did and we just don't know to what level. Joe was human and some forget this. I have no idea why the same ones denying he knew anything will dare say Joe wasn't perfect. It's why they are so upset by any of this. It's pretty transparent as well.

Couple things...when did Joe say he "made a mistake"? Please tell me you are not referring to the "with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more" line?

It wasn't intentional "I think"...wow did you really just say that? Why don't you just come out and say what you really think and get it over with? Hedge much?

Also you could fit the number of people here who flat out denied Joe knew ANYTHING about '98 inside a thimble. And you're right we don't know to what level, but the level is critical as to whether him knowing ANYTHING about '98 is even important. But blast away at your straw man.
 
Mistakes were made and you don't have regrets if you think you didn't miss a thing. It wasn't intentional I think, but I know some cannot even fathom someone who appreciated Joe saying he made a mistake. Just one month ago people here flat out denied he knew ANYTHING at all about 98. Well, he did and we just don't know to what level. Joe was human and some forget this. I have no idea why the same ones denying he knew anything will dare say Joe wasn't perfect. It's why they are so upset by any of this. It's pretty transparent as well.

I don't know to what extent JVP knew about '98, but I have long maintained that knowing almost anything about '98 played significantly into the seemingly lack of more action in '01. '01 is far more likely to be perceived as a 'here we go again / someone crying wolf' deal if any knowledge of '98 is held.
Just my opinion, but I think it is a human-nature reaction which leads to letting down your guard. On the heels of that, this is why (imo) TSM / Dr. Jack hold the vast majority of the responsibility for more not being done after his conversation with Tim in '01. Jack clearly understands that you cannot let your guard down in these matters.

Hell, even I wish I had done more.... I recall reading snippets about this way back when, long before '11, saying things along the lines of 'wait til the Sandusky news hits... things will blow up'. Often those threads would get deleted, and I blew it off as typical strange rumors, or jealousy, or whatever. I know Tim. I could have asked him about it one of the times I saw him and talked with him. But I didn't. Now I wish I had, so that maybe he would have taken another couple of steps. Not likely that MY uninformed question to him would have much if any impact, but I'll never know. I wish I had at least broached the subject with him.
 
Colt, there are three part of the lawsuit.

Whistle blower.. handling of 2010/2011 forward

And defamation.... 2011 firward

And misrepresentation... 2001 forward

As far as time period goes.

Hope that helps
 
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Couple things...when did Joe say he "made a mistake"? Please tell me you are not referring to the "with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more" line?

It wasn't intentional "I think"...wow did you really just say that? Why don't you just come out and say what you really think and get it over with? Hedge much?

Also you could fit the number of people here who flat out denied Joe knew ANYTHING about '98 inside a thimble. And you're right we don't know to what level, but the level is critical as to whether him knowing ANYTHING about '98 is even important. But blast away at your straw man.
Why do you make things up and get do defensive? I said regrets. Are you turning into an idiot? Like I said I know a few can't handle the fact mistakes were made, but we can only point out MM's, the state, it TSM because people here cannot handle people saying innocent mistakes were made. They were and I don't care if you disagree. I can respect the man and still realize that he was human.
 
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Why do you make things up and get do defensive? I said regrets. Are you turning into an idiot? Like I said I know a few can't handle the fact mistakes were made, but we can only point out MM's, the state, it TSM because people here cannot handle people saying innocent mistakes were made. They were and I don't care if you disagree. I can respect the man and still realize that he was human.

LOL. Please tell me what I "made up". Good luck with that. It was your post, your words. Looks like you're the one who is defensive. I can see why.
 
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Here's links and images of McQueary's testimony on this topic from his civil trial - which informed my thinking - and from the Spanier trial.

McQueary testimony, 10/21/2016 morning, at his civil trial, p.67-69
http://co.centre.pa.us/centreco/media/upload/MCQUEARY TRANSCRIPT 10 21 16 AM.pdf

28vg4et.jpg


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28s7m8m.jpg





McQueary testimony, 3/21/2017 at Spanier Trial, p.23 & 24
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gqy9fca3i8v85d/McQueary Transcript.pdf?dl=0

2i8es92.jpg


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There is a lot here, but I have spent a lot of my life reading transcripts and watching and stimulating live testimony in depositions and trials. The first note I would make is that Eschbach and MM apparently violated GJ secrecy rules in a big way. Once, a week before that Friday, she told MM who was going to be arrested, and again on that Friday she told him again that it was going to be leaked out. Understand that talking to him about the timing of indictments is a crime in any event, and his repeating it to Ganter and whoever else he told was another crime.

That said, when comparing differing testimony about the same event from the same witness memory plays a potential part, but so does intentional deceit, and inability to keep your lies straight. Raw intelligence plays a part as well.

The problem is that this is not science. It is often not even an art, this sifting of the truth from mistakes and outright lies.

Assuming that when he was in the Philly airport he got a call from Eshbach AT ALL, then, it seems odd he would remember the terminal letters and the "tram," but stumble over whether she told him she was going to leak it out. Bad memory for the events seems unlikely, but bad memory of the BS story he was supposed to tell about the indictments seems more likely.

Had the Dauphin Co Courthouse already made its fateful mistake of posting it on the website too early yet? Or did that happen AFTER JE told him she would be leaking it out?
 
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Great post Jimmy. There was a lot to be learned here and too many used this for political gain and a few are still in flat out denial it really occurred. Those that harp on Mike cannot stand it when people say Joe should have done more....but it's doing exactly what they hate the most. It's so GD hypocritical, but in their heads you can bash all things MM and never dare cast a stone in Joe's direction. MM made mistakes. Joe made mistakes. CSS made mistakes. TSM made mistakes. The State agencies and OAG made mistakes. The thing is everyone is trying to push the blame somewhere else, but most of it should be directed at the sick SOB who will die in jail. The others while playing the blame game basically didn't take the opportunity to use it as a learning experience so that it is caught sooner somewhere else.

What I take from Jimmy here is that when it comes to PCSOs, you have to know in advance that mistakes will be made by the untrained people who step into unfamiliar territory. Focusing on blame and not on what can be - and needs to be - learned is harmful.

I gave up blaming McQ a while back as I tried to learn more about how people react when they cannot believe their own eyes. But aside from JS, I continue to blame the OGBOT, the OAG, CYS, TSM, etc.... those who either knew much more about PCSOs than any untrained athletics admins and coaches could ever hope to, or who were expected to focus on other aspects of the matter, such as crisis management and setting aside personal issues, for the greater good.

Geez you guys, did you know I was planning to post about the concept of blame next? I've given that topic a lot of thought over the last five years, and it led me to examine the concept of "blame" and why we engage in it. I found some interesting articles on the topic...


### Why do people blame others | 2KnowMySelf (not the full article, but most of it)
http://www.2knowmyself.com/Why_do_people_blame_others

**Why do people blame others**
Some people start to blame everyone around them as soon as anything bad happens. While the habit of blaming others is very common still there is no one common reason behind it but instead there are many different reasons that could make a person blame others.

...

**Loss of control:** Some people panic when they lose control of a situation and so they try to restore the sense of being in control by blaming others!! So behind the act of blaming others fear might exist!!

**Controlling you:** Some people try to control others by blaming them and making them feel that they are bad. If someone desperately wants you to do something he might blame you to change your behavior. Labeling you selfish, arrogant or snob by friends is one of the common methods for controlling others using blame.

...

**Unable to accept what happened:** People blame others when they fail to accept something that happened. Had those people learned how to properly accept events they would have never blamed others

**Blaming others and feeling helpless:** People who blame others usually try to hide their feelings of helplessness. If they didn’t blame anyone they would admit that they are not in control and that there is nothing they can do.



### Why We Blame Others
http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/blame/why_blame_others.htm

**Why do we tend to blame other people? We do it so often and so easily, but what is the underlying psychological purpose?**

**Badness**
One explanation we tell ourselves when we blame others is because they are bad. Yet being bad means not only intentionally transgressing values but repeatedly doing so and without concern for others. Being bad is a permanent state, an unchangeable trait. Few can be described as being so evil.

Turning the tables, blaming itself can be seen as a bad act, so perhaps you can blame the blamer, pointing out that they are blaming too quickly and insufficient evidence. There is a line from the Bible (John 8:7) that says 'Let the person who is without sin cast the first stone', implying that nobody is blameless and hence is not qualified to blame others.

So why do we still blame?

**Status**
We have a deep need for a sense of identity, and one way we do this is through social comparison, contrasting ourselves against others. As a part of this, if we can place ourselves higher in the pecking order of society then we can feel more important and have a greater sense of control.

Much of our conversation with others is in fact a social duel in which we seek a higher status than others. And blame is one of the tools we use to this end. If the other person is bad, then it seems we must be relatively good.

**Projection**
Another reason for blame is that we feel bad about something and want to get rid of the bad feeling, so we project that feeling at others. Blaming others sets them up as bad so we can then project our bad feelings into them.

In effect, we are saying 'I cannot handle this bad feeling, so I want you to take it away for me'. Of course it is not that simple, but this method is rooted in childhood thinking yet continues well into adult life.

If we can focus on the bad of others then this takes our mind off the bad feelings within us. Projection hence has can work by distraction.

**Explaining**
When something goes wrong, our deep need to explain what caused the problem to occur is triggered.

A way of finding cause is to blame someone. This is a surprisingly common approach in organizations where a 'blame culture' assumes someone is at fault for every problem and issue. As a result, people are quick to judge others and equally quick to avoid or deny responsibility.

What is easily missed is that most problems are caused by the context or system and not by people. Few go to work thinking 'I'll fail today'. Few also are lazy or incompetent.

**Defending**
When we feel that we are under attack, we may use blaming as a method of defending ourselves.

If a person blames us, then it is suggested that (a) something has gone wrong, and (b) it was our responsibility. We can accept (a) and either deflect (b) by suggesting someone else is to blame, or directly counter-attack by blaming the blamer.

If we are not at fault, we blame to defend. If we are at fault, then we blame to deflect. In either case, we protect ourselves by pointing the finger elsewhere.

**Attacking**
Sometimes we blame others less because we are moving attention away from ourselves and more because we specifically want to attack others.

A common reason to attack others is that we have some grudge against them, believing them to be bad or unworthy in some way and hence deserving punishment. Perhaps they have blamed us unfairly in past. Maybe they have hurt one of our friends. In any case, the opportunity to blame is used as a convenient method of subtle attack.

**Conditioning**
In conditioning, a stimulus is paired with an action in order to motivate. Much of the way we try to motivate others is based on such assumptions.

Blame is a form of punishment and is likely to result in reduction in the actions that the person is taking. It is a poor motivator to get people to act in specific other ways.

One of the major social benefits of blame is that it conditions people into behaving according to the rules of the society. Just the fear of being blamed, and the consequences of this, is often enough to gain compliance. In this way, blaming is also a way of sending signals to others.

**While blame can work, it is fraught with difficulties as people are not as simple as animals**, with which the original research was done. When people are blamed, they may resist, fighting back with their own attack. They may also seem to do nothing yet hold a grudge that comes out in a long series of unhelpful acts.

There can also be an unwanted conditioning effect where the underlying assumption that the blamed person is bad leads to them believing this, resulting in them continuing to act in a bad way.


-----
And these are just some notes I sent to myself about a year ago:

Thinking out loud.....

Why do we automatically look to assign blame? Why do we need to assign blame to anyone or anything other than Sandusky. As for the rest of it, is does not help anyone to blame before first understanding what was known at the time and what those people were thinking.
 
There is a lot here, but I have spent a lot of my life reading transcripts and watching and stimulating live testimony in depositions and trials. The first note I would make is that Eschbach and MM apparently violated GJ secrecy rules in a big way. Once, a week before that Friday, she told MM who was going to be arrested, and again on that Friday she told him again that it was going to be leaked out. Understand that talking to him about the timing of indictments is a crime in any event, and his repeating it to Ganter and whoever else he told was another crime.

That said, when comparing differing testimony about the same event from the same witness memory plays a potential part, but so does intentional deceit, and inability to keep your lies straight. Raw intelligence plays a part as well.

The problem is that this is not science. It is often not even an art, this sifting of the truth from mistakes and outright lies.

Assuming that when he was in the Philly airport he got a call from Eshbach AT ALL, then, it seems odd he would remember the terminal letters and the "tram," but stumble over whether she told him she was going to leak it out. Bad memory for the events seems unlikely, but bad memory of the BS story he was supposed to tell about the indictments seems more likely.

Had the Dauphin Co Courthouse already made its fateful mistake of posting it on the website too early yet? Or did that happen AFTER JE told him she would be leaking it out?


Are you really an attorney - it seems most attorneys would want to get their facts straight before commenting. Just for starters it wasn't even Dauphin Co. Courthouse involved. pretty funny you commenting on something you don't even have basic knowledge of.
 
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There is a lot here, but I have spent a lot of my life reading transcripts and watching and stimulating live testimony in depositions and trials. The first note I would make is that Eschbach and MM apparently violated GJ secrecy rules in a big way. Once, a week before that Friday, she told MM who was going to be arrested, and again on that Friday she told him again that it was going to be leaked out. Understand that talking to him about the timing of indictments is a crime in any event, and his repeating it to Ganter and whoever else he told was another crime.

What PA code would have been violated and considered criminal. It has also been known for many years including sworn testimony that Old Main, baldwin, tim and gary knew for 2-3 weeks the charges were coming.

turns out the athletic department including gantor and even Joe all knew about the impending arrest coming for Jerry and possibly tim and gary before mike gave them the heads up.
 
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Some great posts in this thread. The "system" (OAG and media in this case) has already ascribed "blame" in several directions.

Sandusky was charged, tried, convicted and sentenced to jail for the rest of his life. He has been blamed in a major way. Rightfully so in my opinion. Nothing else to do there.

Joe Paterno is dead, with his stellar reputation tarnished (unfairly in my strong opinion) for eternity. His family fights and I cheer them on, but this battle for legacy was lost between the lies in the GJP and the hack job Freeh Report.

Tim Curley and Gary Schultz have lived the last 5+ years in limbo and have now plead guilty (rightly or wrongly) to EWOC. Their lives will never be the same.

Graham Spanier has been convicted (wrongly in my opinion) in a court of law of EWOC. He may or may not prevail on appeal, but regardless his life has been changed for the worse forever by the system.

Meanwhile there are MANY others who appear highly "blamable" for what happened, as it relates to PSU, that the system has ignored, such as Mike McQueary, his father, Dranov, Jack Raykovitz, certain members of the BOT, Louis Freeh, etc. Arguably McQueary has suffered the most, but that is somewhat offset by a $12 million court awarded payday.

So many people who have followed this case very closely have a problem with that. They like to talk on a PSU blog about others who should have shouldered some of the blame if not most of it. Those people appear to have skated away Scott free, or in the case of McQueary and Freeh, financially enriched. It actually seems pretty normal to me that people discuss that here.
 
I at least know what court house it was that so called "illegally leaked" Sandusky's criminal complaint. but don't let simple and even the most basic of facts get in the way ......

How is the Litany according to JockstrapJacobs?

See you still tout the bullshit.
 
I at least know what court house it was that so called "illegally leaked" Sandusky's criminal complaint. but don't let simple and even the most basic of facts get in the way ......
So, did Mike get his Spanier trial testimony right? Did JE tell him a week before the charges who was being charged? Did he tell Ganter and Curley and the rest? Did he get a call on that Friday telling him they were going to leak it out?

Surely you know, right? Just tell us.
 
So, did Mike get his Spanier trial testimony right? Did JE tell him a week before the charges who was being charged? Did he tell Ganter and Curley and the rest? Did he get a call on that Friday telling him they were going to leak it out?

Surely you know, right? Just tell us.

Sounds like you have some catching up to do. Mike testified to the same thing during the civil trial against PSU. that was 6 months ago.......
 
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Sounds like you have some catching up to do. Mike testified to the same thing during the civil trial against PSU. that was 6 months ago.......
He said in the Civil trial that he was told by Eshbach that she was going to "Leak it out?" Really.
 
towny don't clam up now. What time was it when your man Red got the lowdown from Jonelle? And was that before or after it actually leaked? Hmmm? What flight was Red on that day?
 
towny don't clam up now. What time was it when your man Red got the lowdown from Jonelle? And was that before or after it actually leaked? Hmmm? What flight was Red on that day?

What was even leaked........ you don't even know what was leaked or where it was even leaked. Have you at least figured out which courthouse it was. Hint it wasn't Dauphin County....
 
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Nice dodge
It wasn't a dodge - I don't know the specifics to the questions. It was 5 years ago and difficult to remember. It was kind of a crazy weekend.

I have the same testimony to read from the civil trial and from spanier's trial. Mike never mentioned a presentment in his testimony. Not even sure anyone at that time knew what one was. I didn't know about any grand jury or what a presentment was. It was just known that they were going to be charged soon and then that weekend. But again that was already known by a lot of people at PSU. The criminal complaint was coming out no matter what...... turns out the presentment was going to become public no matter what....... so even if the OAG tried to manipulate the timing to a buy week who knows if that was nefarious or not. They may just not have wanted to bother Joe during the nebraska game prep week.
 
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It wasn't a dodge - I don't know the specifics to the questions. It was 5 years ago and difficult to remember. It was kind of a crazy weekend.

I have the same testimony to read from the civil trial and from spanier's trial. Mike never mentioned a presentment in his testimony. Not even sure anyone at that time knew what one was. I didn't know about any grand jury or what a presentment was. It was just known that they were going to be charged soon and then that weekend. But again that was already known by a lot of people at PSU. The criminal complaint was coming out no matter what...... turns out the presentment was going to become public no matter what....... so even if the OAG tried to manipulate the timing to a buy week who knows if that was nefarious or not. They may just not have wanted to bother Joe during the nebraska game prep week.
You told me I had some catching up to do...isn't he your brother in law??? So, your analysis is that it is not a leak if the person who hears it already knows the info? Got a citation for that?

You do understand that they put the former AG out of her office for the same sort of thing?

You do not know the specifics? But Mike does. Just ask him and tell us what he says. Easy.
 
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You told me I had some catching up to do...isn't he your brother in law??? So, your analysis is that it is not a leak if the person who hears it already knows the info? Got a citation for that?

You do understand that they put the former AG out of her office for the same sort of thing?

I would hope if I ever needed to hire an attorney they would know the difference between leaking grand jury testimony and posting a criminal complaint that was going to be public record no matter what...............

So again just what criminal code would one be charged with for discussing that someone is going to be arrested.

I sure hope your work on bringing joe's statue back is going better.
 
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Seems odd that Mike would be informed of upcoming arrests. I am not sure why there is uproar about that 'leak' on 11/4. The real issue is how Ganim got the info going back to 3/11 or prior.


I don't consider it odd at all. We know from the history of this case that victims and their representatives were asking about progress, JE was saying the grand jury was asking about presentments, and that this would be a huge case in the public eye when it broke.

It's common practice, at least for relatively wealthy individuals like CSS and even JS, to be given a heads up and allowed to arrange for themselves to turn themselves in rather than being caught unaware. Nothing unusual at all IMO.
 
I would hope if I ever needed to hire an attorney they would know the difference between leaking grand jury testimony and posting a criminal complaint that was going to be public record no matter what...............

So again just what criminal code would one be charged with for discussing that someone is going to be arrested.

I sure hope your work on bringing joe's statue back is going better.
So the info that charges were coming, that was inadvertently placed on the record on Friday, Nov. 4, no problem with that? Huh. So why did they pull it back?

Btw, I am able to pick my own clients. That would likely leave you out. Unless you were brain damaged and could not testify, and someone other than Mikey was with you when it happened.
 
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So the info that charges were coming, that was inadvertently placed on the record on Friday, Nov. 4, no problem with that? Huh. So why did they pull it back?

Btw, I am able to pick my own clients. That would likely leave you out. Unless you were brain damaged and could not testify, and someone other than Mikey was with you when it happened.

I will help you out. It was Centre County Courthouse. If you are going to make wild criminal allegations you should at least have the correct county.

so now can you answer my question. what criminal code would one be arrested for discussing someone going to be arrested if the people who are going to be arrested already know.

Let's meet for coffee next week. We can figure this all out. who knows you may not be near as big of dimwit in person.
 
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Geez you guys, did you know I was planning to post about the concept of blame next? I've given that topic a lot of thought over the last five years, and it led me to examine the concept of "blame" and why we engage in it. I found some interesting articles on the topic...


### Why do people blame others | 2KnowMySelf (not the full article, but most of it)
http://www.2knowmyself.com/Why_do_people_blame_others

**Why do people blame others**
Some people start to blame everyone around them as soon as anything bad happens. While the habit of blaming others is very common still there is no one common reason behind it but instead there are many different reasons that could make a person blame others.

...

**Loss of control:** Some people panic when they lose control of a situation and so they try to restore the sense of being in control by blaming others!! So behind the act of blaming others fear might exist!!

**Controlling you:** Some people try to control others by blaming them and making them feel that they are bad. If someone desperately wants you to do something he might blame you to change your behavior. Labeling you selfish, arrogant or snob by friends is one of the common methods for controlling others using blame.

...

**Unable to accept what happened:** People blame others when they fail to accept something that happened. Had those people learned how to properly accept events they would have never blamed others

**Blaming others and feeling helpless:** People who blame others usually try to hide their feelings of helplessness. If they didn’t blame anyone they would admit that they are not in control and that there is nothing they can do.



### Why We Blame Others
http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/blame/why_blame_others.htm

**Why do we tend to blame other people? We do it so often and so easily, but what is the underlying psychological purpose?**

**Badness**
One explanation we tell ourselves when we blame others is because they are bad. Yet being bad means not only intentionally transgressing values but repeatedly doing so and without concern for others. Being bad is a permanent state, an unchangeable trait. Few can be described as being so evil.

Turning the tables, blaming itself can be seen as a bad act, so perhaps you can blame the blamer, pointing out that they are blaming too quickly and insufficient evidence. There is a line from the Bible (John 8:7) that says 'Let the person who is without sin cast the first stone', implying that nobody is blameless and hence is not qualified to blame others.

So why do we still blame?

**Status**
We have a deep need for a sense of identity, and one way we do this is through social comparison, contrasting ourselves against others. As a part of this, if we can place ourselves higher in the pecking order of society then we can feel more important and have a greater sense of control.

Much of our conversation with others is in fact a social duel in which we seek a higher status than others. And blame is one of the tools we use to this end. If the other person is bad, then it seems we must be relatively good.

**Projection**
Another reason for blame is that we feel bad about something and want to get rid of the bad feeling, so we project that feeling at others. Blaming others sets them up as bad so we can then project our bad feelings into them.

In effect, we are saying 'I cannot handle this bad feeling, so I want you to take it away for me'. Of course it is not that simple, but this method is rooted in childhood thinking yet continues well into adult life.

If we can focus on the bad of others then this takes our mind off the bad feelings within us. Projection hence has can work by distraction.

**Explaining**
When something goes wrong, our deep need to explain what caused the problem to occur is triggered.

A way of finding cause is to blame someone. This is a surprisingly common approach in organizations where a 'blame culture' assumes someone is at fault for every problem and issue. As a result, people are quick to judge others and equally quick to avoid or deny responsibility.

What is easily missed is that most problems are caused by the context or system and not by people. Few go to work thinking 'I'll fail today'. Few also are lazy or incompetent.

**Defending**
When we feel that we are under attack, we may use blaming as a method of defending ourselves.

If a person blames us, then it is suggested that (a) something has gone wrong, and (b) it was our responsibility. We can accept (a) and either deflect (b) by suggesting someone else is to blame, or directly counter-attack by blaming the blamer.

If we are not at fault, we blame to defend. If we are at fault, then we blame to deflect. In either case, we protect ourselves by pointing the finger elsewhere.

**Attacking**
Sometimes we blame others less because we are moving attention away from ourselves and more because we specifically want to attack others.

A common reason to attack others is that we have some grudge against them, believing them to be bad or unworthy in some way and hence deserving punishment. Perhaps they have blamed us unfairly in past. Maybe they have hurt one of our friends. In any case, the opportunity to blame is used as a convenient method of subtle attack.

**Conditioning**
In conditioning, a stimulus is paired with an action in order to motivate. Much of the way we try to motivate others is based on such assumptions.

Blame is a form of punishment and is likely to result in reduction in the actions that the person is taking. It is a poor motivator to get people to act in specific other ways.

One of the major social benefits of blame is that it conditions people into behaving according to the rules of the society. Just the fear of being blamed, and the consequences of this, is often enough to gain compliance. In this way, blaming is also a way of sending signals to others.

**While blame can work, it is fraught with difficulties as people are not as simple as animals**, with which the original research was done. When people are blamed, they may resist, fighting back with their own attack. They may also seem to do nothing yet hold a grudge that comes out in a long series of unhelpful acts.

There can also be an unwanted conditioning effect where the underlying assumption that the blamed person is bad leads to them believing this, resulting in them continuing to act in a bad way.


-----
And these are just some notes I sent to myself about a year ago:

Thinking out loud.....

Why do we automatically look to assign blame? Why do we need to assign blame to anyone or anything other than Sandusky. As for the rest of it, is does not help anyone to blame before first understanding what was known at the time and what those people were thinking.
I wasn't placing blame but saying quite a few people missed some things. Some cannot even fathom mistakes were made, but they were. I'm just not thinking they were deliberate but somehow that is how it is taken for only one person. You can rant on this site all day sabout MM, but dare say Joe may missed the bullseye and the hornets freak the fu*k out. Anyway, appreciate your level post centered around actual facts.
 
THIS ------->

The fact that the prosecution could actually use JR as a PROSECUTION WITNESS speaks of nothing more than abuse of political power

I can't tell you how many folks I have spoken with after the trial - that are professionals either directly or tangentially related to this entire mess - that can't believe he sat up there like that, said what he said, and the charity leadership has simply.........skated.
 
What was even leaked........ you don't even know what was leaked or where it was even leaked. Have you at least figured out which courthouse it was. Hint it wasn't Dauphin County....

Isn't there some suspicion Dutchcot or someone under her did it?
 
Isn't there some suspicion Dutchcot or someone under her did it?

story is that the state police took the criminal complaint to the courthouse friday to have it ready for monday morning but an admin clerk accidentally posted online. so jerry was arrested Saturday instead of Monday. Not sure what purpose would be served either way if it were intentionally leaked because Friday or Monday or whatever day charges were filed it was going to be shitstorm either way.
 
THIS ------->



I can't tell you how many folks I have spoken with after the trial - that are professionals either directly or tangentially related to this entire mess - that can't believe he sat up there like that, said what he said, and the charity leadership has simply.........skated.
yea that's the big shocker right there
we all have our opinions and many people don't understand how it works and that's fine

but the ONE thing that is absolutely fact is that JR had responsibilities in BOTH 98 and 01/02 and he KNEW about 98 and 01/02 and to end up being a prosecution witness no less is absolutely beyond unbelievable
 
to end up being a prosecution witness no less is absolutely beyond unbelievable
Up is Down, Down is Up - and we are in Wonderland. And what's even worse - Ditka was using Jack to justify the fact that when CYS called TSM with the CMHS complaint by Aaron Fisher - that Jack acted SWIFTLY and appropriately, and removed Jerry from all children's programming. Hence if Tim Curley HAD JUST CALLED CYS Jerry would have been "stopped".

Just.Like.That.

Never mind the fact that CMHS told Fisher to go home and think about it. I doubt the Jury knew a single thing about the failures at CMHS.

And never mind the fact that in the same testimony Jack stated that Curley bringing his complaint to TSM was a proper decision and the appropriate place to do so. Because "protecting children" was part of the mission of TSM.

And never mind the fact that our state placed Matt Sandusky in that home, which Jack Raykovitz had a hand in facilitating as well.

So go figure.

But anyway - that's all off topic, JmmyW makes excellent points and brings a lot of food for thought here.
 
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THIS ------->



I can't tell you how many folks I have spoken with after the trial - that are professionals either directly or tangentially related to this entire mess - that can't believe he sat up there like that, said what he said, and the charity leadership has simply.........skated.
Thank You Misters Spanier and Silver.

#*}^*#*}*}+£<€}*!!!!!! %*£<^%£>£<£¥!!!!


:eek:
 
Thank You Misters Spanier and Silver.

#*}^*#*}*}+£<€}*!!!!!! %*£<^%£>£<£¥!!!!


:eek:

Actually - I see it a bit differently. In speaking with these lawyers, the power of the Office of Attorney General is immense.

Now, when that awesome power is in the hands of chimpanzees on crack wielding Uzi's........

This is what should frighten everyone here - NO ONE saw it coming from the Office of Attorney General, the political assassination - who would have thought our AG would attempt a political whack job on a university president? I don't think anyone saw the extreme level of corruption combined with incompetence either.

We just assume "Office of Attorney General" would be all professional and ethical and whatnot - and that our PA press corps would do that "Fourth Estate" thingy.

My God - it's been anything but that.

Mike's life and career aspirations were destroyed over a single line in a prosecutors document. Curley, Schultz and Spanier drove down to Harrisburg not knowing they had targets on their back that day. Joe got destroyed in a media stampede and Linda Kelly is "oh well ! " and exits stage left. Freeh comes in and salts the earth and everyone's using that to rim their Margarita glass.

Silver is representing Graham, his client. His duty is to navigate Graham's case through the PA court system, with the AG prosecutors assigned, for the best possible outcome for his client, and his client only.

I can tell you that the state provided no evidence of Graham's guilt. We can argue all day about the trial, but the bigger question is why these guys were ever charged under such a tortured interpretation of the law to begin with, with an "anal rape" that never happened, and with a "victim" our state never cared to identify.

Which should scare the average person out here as well. None of us would have the resources to defend ourselves should we ever be targeted like that.

Anyway - I'd like to see JmmyW write an OpEd on this - or perhaps he can pen it for a Trustee.
 
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None of us would have the resources to defend ourselves should we ever be targeted like that.

Put another more realistic way. Those of us who would have contacted authorities would also not have an email trail dithering about being vulnerable, and couldn't be targeted at all.
 
Actually - I see it a bit differently. In speaking with these lawyers, the power of the Office of Attorney General is immense.

Now, when that awesome power is in the hands of chimpanzees on crack wielding Uzi's........

This is what should frighten everyone here - NO ONE saw it coming from the Office of Attorney General, the political assassination - who would have thought our AG would attempt a political whack job on a university president? I don't think anyone saw the extreme level of corruption combined with incompetence either.

We just assume "Office of Attorney General" would be all professional and ethical and whatnot - and that our PA press corps would do that "Fourth Estate" thingy.

My God - it's been anything but that.

Mike's life and career aspirations were destroyed over a single line in a prosecutors document. Curley, Schultz and Spanier drove down to Harrisburg not knowing they had targets on their back that day. Joe got destroyed in a media stampede and Linda Kelly is "oh well ! " and exits stage left. Freeh comes in and salts the earth and everyone's using that to rim their Margarita glass.

Silver is representing Graham, his client. His duty is to navigate Graham's case through the PA court system, with the AG prosecutors assigned, for the best possible outcome for his client, and his client only.

I can tell you that the state provided no evidence of Graham's guilt. We can argue all day about the trial, but the bigger question is why these guys were ever charged under such a tortured interpretation of the law to begin with, with an "anal rape" that never happened, and with a "victim" our state never cared to identify.

Which should scare the average person out here as well. None of us would have the resources to defend ourselves should we ever be targeted like that.

Anyway - I'd like to see JmmyW write an OpEd on this - or perhaps he can pen it for a Trustee.
Oh My - I most certainly agree: The folks in the OAG are about as contemptible as possible.

[I certainly don't need to reminded that the Prosecution case was BS ......... it was BS at the preliminary, and in five years all it did was get even crappier.]

But - we all knew that, didn't we?

All of us - anyone who paid a nickle's worth of attention......... except for Silver, apparently (if we are going to chalk his performance up as just "stupidity", and nothing worse) ..... and Spanier, if he was directing the "strategery"

Hell - Spanier was at the MM v PSU case - - - HE TESTIFIED THERE - if anyone has no excuse for ignorance, it is him.


We can all feel badly for him - but he and Silver screwed the pooch like a pack of bulldogs at a bitch convention. And Silver/Spanier even seemed to have a fair and righteous Judge!! Jeebzus.

As you said - Silver's job was to "get his client acquited" ........ which means it was NOT to serve his client up as an, entirely predictable, victim of corruption.
And then bellyache about the Tsunami that anyone with an above room temperature IQ knew was coming - - - - and that was entirely avoidable and completely within their control to avoid.


The fact that in the process of F-ing over his client (or himself, if we are talking about Spanier) he also gave the "truth" a royal ass f***?
That he elected to - among other things (and it certainly was not his only act of idiocy/complicity) - tell JR to have a nice day? I guess that was just a nice bonus?


F the OAG? Damn right.......SS DD for 6 years.

But F Silver/Spanier? Damn right too.... I think so anyway. At the very LEAST, a "smfh how can you be so stupid?" is in order

Anyway - that's what I see. And the picture is plenty clear.
 
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I find it particularly interesting at this point how little some of you are willing to accept that maybe, just maybe it WAS the admins who screwed the pooch here. After Tim and Gary's performance in the GBS trial we still give them a pass while excoriating anyone else in this story.
 
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This is simple to me - if the Commonwealth is going to accept Mike's statements as gospel truth, then they can't then say "well, he misspoke on this one item". The bottom line is that 16 years later NOBODY can remember anything that f'ing well and when people get caught up in examining exact verbiage to make their case, it's a flawed case. If Mike made clear in 2010 that it was "sexual in nature", then Mike made clear in 2017 that the pending arrests were "leaked". You can't have it both ways.
 
I find it particularly interesting at this point how little some of you are willing to accept that maybe, just maybe it WAS the admins who screwed the pooch here. After Tim and Gary's performance in the GBS trial we still give them a pass while excoriating anyone else in this story.
Except for a few details on Gary's part, their testimony was consistent with what they had previously stated.
 
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