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Next year and beyond - middle weights

dicemen99

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
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Due to my seemingly once a month bout with insomnia, I have the next 3 weights done a little earlier than planned. Again, JMO. Some knowledge, lots of conjecture and looking for good discussion.

157/165
I have grouped these two weights together, because it is solely dependent on where Nolf ends up and the same cast of wrestlers will be fighting for the other spot. IMO, the best case scenario for the team is below, but this may not be what is best for Jason and he will dictate the lineup.

157 Starter: Vincenzo Joseph-rsFR. I know there have been posts on here about Cenzo missing weight twice this season at 157 and how he may be a 165 or above in the future, but the reality of a redshirt season is that weight control is low on the list of priorities. Joseph is no dummy and obviously had no desire to sit behind Zain (2 years) and Jason (3 years), so putting on good weight makes sense. If Nolf is at 165, Cenzo is going to be at 157 or he is not serious about being a PSU wrestler. Look, Brody Grothus made 141, as long as Nolf doesn't hit a growth spurt two weeks before the season starts Joseph will be fine – it's not like he is 6'. When last seen wrestling, Cenzo is dynamic in neutral and as much as I think Mike Kemerer is a fine wrestler, I would put my money on Joseph getting an AA before Kemerer grabs the AA that the HR has him penciled in at provided the right things are going on with Cenzo and they are both at 57. Problem with that is “when last seen wrestling.” The Messiah Open doesn't count. With fingers crossed, I will trust that he is progressing as he should in the PSU room and if so, he should clearly be the other starter besides Nolf. If not, we have other options. At 165, I am not quite as enthusiastic about Cenzo as longer and stronger guys could be problematic, but he will still be someone to be reckoned with.

165 Starter: Jason Nolf-rsSO. Nolf is a title contender at either weight. I would have no issues with him going up, he is a deceptively strong wrestler and if his body is taking him to 165 he will be just as good there. Not a lot to be said, he is the real deal. Captain Obvious, I know.


Backups: Geno Morelli-rsSR, Garrett Hammond-rsJR, Francisco Bisono-rsFR. Again, an embarrasment of riches here as Morelli was a split second away from the quarters at Nationals and could end up a backup. One more year in the room away from the dumpster fire he left and who knows. Hammond would also be a viable option, but some concern this year as after a starting position was not in the cards, I'm not sure that Garrett was quite as motivated, but I could be off base there. Either way, Morelli and Hammond are starting options and very good ones at that should Joseph falter. Two NCAA qualifiers could be on the bench.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: I see the same situation for 2017/18 minus Morelli. Manville will join the team most likely as a 2017 recruit and redshirt. I am not in the camp that is down on Mason, he made some great improvement in his year at Seminary and, most importantly, has the right mental makeup to succeed at PSU. He is going to AA multiple times here. Tons of eligibility at these weight so little need to allocate more money here for a couple of years unless things change.

One caveat. Should there be an issue with Joseph and Nolf is staying at 157 next year, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Hall ends up on campus and is the starting 165 next year. But I would not consider that probable at this point in time.


174
Starter: Bo Nickal-rsSO.
Bo will make the move to 184, but I think he stays put for next year. A title contender, if not favorite, with his biggest threat most likely coming from the tOSU entry. He's only going to get better.


Backups: Brian Brill-rsJR, Caleb Livingston-rsJR. Brill obviously has a lot of talent and perhaps we will see him throw his hat in the ring at 184. If he had a shot to start it could perhaps throw a switch with him and he is a great insurance policy to have. Livingston is a great guy to have on the team as evidenced by his wrestling at 285 for the squad this year.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Mark Hall here in 2017/18 as a 2017 recruit. And beyond. Again, no obvious recruiting need here for a few years because of all the talent we have. We have had a finalist here 4 out of the past 5 years (5th the other year and 3rd from Ruth back in 2011) and our dominance at this weight will continue. Again, no recruiting need for a few years barring the unforeseen.
 
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I thought Hammond transferred to a lower division school? Or was that another guy?

No not Rutgers
 
Great write-ups Dice. I like the line-up more with Nolf at 65 if Cenzo can make it to 57. If both can't we have a slight issue considering we don't really have anyone there. My guess is that (Plan C) equals Manville at 57 next year
 
Dice, I'll bet you a 6-pack of your choosing that Cenzo is at 165 next year

I certainly wouldn't take that bet as I stated that Cenzo will be wherever Nolf ISN'T. If you read above in total, I just put it that way because IMO that scores the most team points in St. Louis. But Nolf will dictate the lineup and the other - should it be Cenzo - will fill in around him.
 
Great write-ups Dice. I like the line-up more with Nolf at 65 if Cenzo can make it to 57. If both can't we have a slight issue considering we don't really have anyone there. My guess is that (Plan C) equals Manville at 57 next year

If Nolf goes 165, SOMEBODY will make 57 next year. I don't have much doubt that Joseph can do it, but I could be wrong. Anyway, IMO Manville is a sure bet to grey shirt.
 
I don't think Nolf struggled a lot with his cut. I see no reason for him to not be at 157 next year. Joseph will be just fine at 165.
 
I know there have been posts on here about Cenzo missing weight twice this season at 157 and how he may be a 165 or above in the future, but the reality of a redshirt season is that weight control is low on the list of priorities. Joseph is no dummy and obviously had no desire to sit behind Zain (2 years) and Jason (3 years), so putting on good weight makes sense. If Nolf is at 165, Cenzo is going to be at 157 or he is not serious about being a PSU wrestler.

Things can always change between Nationals and the following season, which makes discussions like this somewhat challenging in March, but Nolf plans to be at 157 next season, and Joseph has been planning since February to challenge for the 165 spot next season.
 
Things can always change between Nationals and the following season, which makes discussions like this somewhat challenging in March, but Nolf plans to be at 157 next season, and Joseph has been planning since February to challenge for the 165 spot next season.

Good info - what I would expect. And who knows how things stand in September.
 
Things can always change between Nationals and the following season, which makes discussions like this somewhat challenging in March, but Nolf plans to be at 157 next season, and Joseph has been planning since February to challenge for the 165 spot next season.

Good info - what I would expect. And who knows how things stand in September.
Agree, as good as dice's work is, much could happen by next November. Still, this is what we do in the off-season...
 
Is it not also with the realm of reasonably possible (as opposed to possible) that Hall could make 165 if he and Cael want him to wrestle for us next year.
 
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all I keep thinking about is Zain's senior year, '18, 149-184. Zain, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Nickal. Has anyone ever had 5 finalists at 5 consecutive weights?
 
all I keep thinking about is Zain's senior year, '18, 149-184. Zain, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Nickal. Has anyone ever had 5 finalists at 5 consecutive weights?

Nevills and Cortez could be finalists as well, don't count out an emerging Suriano either at that point.
 
all I keep thinking about is Zain's senior year, '18, 149-184. Zain, Nolf, Joseph, Hall, Nickal. Has anyone ever had 5 finalists at 5 consecutive weights?

As far as I can tell, 5 finalists at 5 consecutive weights has not been done before. Iowa in 1986 did 5 finalists at 6 consecutive weights when they went 1, 2, 1, 1, 5, 1, 4, 1 from 126 to 190 (i.e., other than the bookend weights 118, Hvy) and again in 1991 when their first 8 weights went 2, 2, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, 3 (wow). The 1950 Northern Iowa and 1941 OkSt teams also went 5 at 6 consecutive weights.
 
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Nevills and Cortez could be finalists as well, don't count out an emerging Suriano either at that point.

I don't count anyone out. That said, a quick look at the 3 weights you listed:

133
Corey Clark (Iowa) and Zane Richards (Illini) look to be the favorites. In all there are 5 AAs returning. Montoya (Neb.) and Taylor (Wisky) would all be considered more likely than Cortez to make it to the finals, and they are all in the B1G. Brock (Okla. St.), if his rehab goes well, would also be considered a strong contender.

285
Snyder (Ohio St) and Coon (Mich) look to the be the favorites. Walz (VT) and Dhesi (Oreg. St.) are also strong contenders. There are 6 AAs returning. Plus Medbery (Wisky) is returning from an Olympic redshirt, Stoll (Iowa) should be a contender if his rehab goes well, and Kroells (Minny) and Black (Illini) did well this past season. Plus, Sasquatch will have a year under his belt (and a year to shake off the rust), and Haines will be in the mix. That's a lot of talent that Nick will have to navigate through to make it to the finals.

125
Gilman (Iowa) and Tomasello (Ohio St.) will be the favorites. There are 9 AAs returning (including past years). Youtsey (Mich), Schram (Stanford), Cruz (Lehigh), Dance (VT), and Moisey (WVU) are all returning. Piccininni is entering the fray for Okla. St. Micic will also be a strong contender for Michigan after transferring/sitting out this past year. We should not underestimate Suriano, and most PSU fans well remember Nico making the finals as a true freshman. As with the other weights, there is a lot of talent to navigate through to make it to the finals.
 
I don't count anyone out. That said, a quick look at the 3 weights you listed:

133
Corey Clark (Iowa) and Zane Richards (Illini) look to be the favorites. In all there are 5 AAs returning. Montoya (Neb.) and Taylor (Wisky) would all be considered more likely than Cortez to make it to the finals, and they are all in the B1G. Brock (Okla. St.), if his rehab goes well, would also be considered a strong contender.

285
Snyder (Ohio St) and Coon (Mich) look to the be the favorites. Walz (VT) and Dhesi (Oreg. St.) are also strong contenders. There are 6 AAs returning. Plus Medbery (Wisky) is returning from an Olympic redshirt, Stoll (Iowa) should be a contender if his rehab goes well, and Kroells (Minny) and Black (Illini) did well this past season. Plus, Sasquatch will have a year under his belt (and a year to shake off the rust), and Haines will be in the mix. That's a lot of talent that Nick will have to navigate through to make it to the finals.

125
Gilman (Iowa) and Tomasello (Ohio St.) will be the favorites. There are 9 AAs returning (including past years). Youtsey (Mich), Schram (Stanford), Cruz (Lehigh), Dance (VT), and Moisey (WVU) are all returning. Piccininni is entering the fray for Okla. St. Micic will also be a strong contender for Michigan after transferring/sitting out this past year. We should not underestimate Suriano, and most PSU fans well remember Nico making the finals as a true freshman. As with the other weights, there is a lot of talent to navigate through to make it to the finals.

They are referencing 2018 (Zain's senior year). Clark and Gilman graduate in 2017.
 
They are referencing 2018 (Zain's senior year). Clark and Gilman graduate in 2017.

This^...the '18 season, but Tom that is an excellent reminder how much of a challenge all 3 of those youngsters face. Also, why many feel our best years could still be ahead.
 
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Due to my seemingly once a month bout with insomnia, I have the next 3 weights done a little earlier than planned. Again, JMO. Some knowledge, lots of conjecture and looking for good discussion.

157/165
I have grouped these two weights together, because it is solely dependent on where Nolf ends up and the same cast of wrestlers will be fighting for the other spot. IMO, the best case scenario for the team is below, but this may not be what is best for Jason and he will dictate the lineup.

157 Starter: Vincenzo Joseph-rsFR. I know there have been posts on here about Cenzo missing weight twice this season at 157 and how he may be a 165 or above in the future, but the reality of a redshirt season is that weight control is low on the list of priorities. Joseph is no dummy and obviously had no desire to sit behind Zain (2 years) and Jason (3 years), so putting on good weight makes sense. If Nolf is at 165, Cenzo is going to be at 157 or he is not serious about being a PSU wrestler. Look, Brody Grothus made 141, as long as Nolf doesn't hit a growth spurt two weeks before the season starts Joseph will be fine – it's not like he is 6'. When last seen wrestling, Cenzo is dynamic in neutral and as much as I think Mike Kemerer is a fine wrestler, I would put my money on Joseph getting an AA before Kemerer grabs the AA that the HR has him penciled in at provided the right things are going on with Cenzo and they are both at 57. Problem with that is “when last seen wrestling.” The Messiah Open doesn't count. With fingers crossed, I will trust that he is progressing as he should in the PSU room and if so, he should clearly be the other starter besides Nolf. If not, we have other options. At 165, I am not quite as enthusiastic about Cenzo as longer and stronger guys could be problematic, but he will still be someone to be reckoned with.

165 Starter: Jason Nolf-rsSO. Nolf is a title contender at either weight. I would have no issues with him going up, he is a deceptively strong wrestler and if his body is taking him to 165 he will be just as good there. Not a lot to be said, he is the real deal. Captain Obvious, I know.


Backups: Geno Morelli-rsSR, Garrett Hammond-rsJR, Francisco Bisono-rsFR. Again, an embarrasment of riches here as Morelli was a split second away from the quarters at Nationals and could end up a backup. One more year in the room away from the dumpster fire he left and who knows. Hammond would also be a viable option, but some concern this year as after a starting position was not in the cards, I'm not sure that Garrett was quite as motivated, but I could be off base there. Either way, Morelli and Hammond are starting options and very good ones at that should Joseph falter. Two NCAA qualifiers could be on the bench.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: I see the same situation for 2017/18 minus Morelli. Manville will join the team most likely as a 2017 recruit and redshirt. I am not in the camp that is down on Mason, he made some great improvement in his year at Seminary and, most importantly, has the right mental makeup to succeed at PSU. He is going to AA multiple times here. Tons of eligibility at these weight so little need to allocate more money here for a couple of years unless things change.

One caveat. Should there be an issue with Joseph and Nolf is staying at 157 next year, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Hall ends up on campus and is the starting 165 next year. But I would not consider that probable at this point in time.


174
Starter: Bo Nickal-rsSO.
Bo will make the move to 184, but I think he stays put for next year. A title contender, if not favorite, with his biggest threat most likely coming from the tOSU entry. He's only going to get better.


Backups: Brian Brill-rsJR, Caleb Livingston-rsJR. Brill obviously has a lot of talent and perhaps we will see him throw his hat in the ring at 184. If he had a shot to start it could perhaps throw a switch with him and he is a great insurance policy to have. Livingston is a great guy to have on the team as evidenced by his wrestling at 285 for the squad this year.


2018 and beyond/Recruiting: Mark Hall here in 2017/18 as a 2017 recruit. And beyond. Again, no obvious recruiting need here for a few years because of all the talent we have. We have had a finalist here 4 out of the past 5 years (5th the other year and 3rd from Ruth back in 2011) and our dominance at this weight will continue. Again, no recruiting need for a few years barring the unforeseen.


Great write up Dice. Can I ask, why is there a camp that is down on Manville? Isn't he number one in the country in HS at his weight? I'm just concerned that there isn't a spot for him for 2 to 3 years.
 
Great write up Dice. Can I ask, why is there a camp that is down on Manville? Isn't he number one in the country in HS at his weight? I'm just concerned that there isn't a spot for him for 2 to 3 years.

After being virtually unbeatable for a while, Mason suffered a number of losses. One to a kid from Maryland I believe in the last second. Then an OT loss to Marinelli in the Ironman and a couple to Hidlay. Of course, Marinelli is the #2 or #3 ranked recruit, losing in OT hardly suggests any difference. And he avenged his Hidlay losses - twice. Plus, people conveniently forget that Manville puts himself out there more than any wrestler in the country. You wrestle that much you are bound to drop a match or two. And in all styles.

Secondly, he wrestled a bunch at 160 leading people to believe he was projecting to 165 in college and where would he fit in at PSU. Conveniently overlooking the fact that he competes and plans to compete in the future at 145.5 internationally. Now, with Nolf and Joseph moving up from where people saw them - well maybe it will work out afterall.

And lastly, people complained about his offense. Which Mason himself pointed out was one of the reasons he selected PSU in the first place - to improve himself in that area.

Bottom line is that the kid has consistently sought out any method available to himself, for a long time now, to improve his wrestling. More so than any wrestler I can recall. IMO, he is as good a recruit in this class as anyone not named Mark Hall. Goes everywhere, consistently challenges himself, never protecting his record or ranking, incredible attitude and work ethic. All the things that seem to be consistent with a high level of success in D1.

People look for things to downplay PSU's success in recruiting. Reaching for straws and hoping...
 
In fairness, it's not just fans of other teams. A number of PSU fans were down on Manville as well, maybe still are.

It's assuming he got a large offer, thinking he overlaps in our lineup, seeing him focus on Greco, and noticing him lose a couple offseason matches (especially the MD kid) while focusing on Greco. "Get rid of him and clear his money for someone better."

Ultimately boils down to exactly how much certain people actually do trust Cael.
 
In fairness, it's not just fans of other teams. A number of PSU fans were down on Manville as well, maybe still are.

It's assuming he got a large offer, thinking he overlaps in our lineup, seeing him focus on Greco, and noticing him lose a couple offseason matches (especially the MD kid) while focusing on Greco. "Get rid of him and clear his money for someone better."

Ultimately boils down to exactly how much certain people actually do trust Cael.

Yes, we definitely have a couple of PSU guys that are not Manville fans. LemonPie and a guy or two on the scout boards. TBH, until Joseph made the move north in weight and Manville came out with the statement on his weight plans, I didn't know how it would work out. But it looks like it slots pretty well. Always going to be some overlap with the way we are recruiting, but you can see your way to each big time recruit getting at least 3 years at this point.
 
...as far as I am concerned it matters not one bit to me what anyone else thinks about our recruits ... EXCEPT for Cael and the rest of our staff...
...they know what they are looking for in a recruit ... most others have NO CLUE ... but thas just my opinion ...
 
...as far as I am concerned it matters not one bit to me what anyone else thinks about our recruits ... EXCEPT for Cael and the rest of our staff...
...they know what they are looking for in a recruit ... most others have NO CLUE ... but thas just my opinion ...

I would agree with our comments, right up to the point where you said most others have no clue. On that point I respectfully disagree. I am amazed by Cael's recruiting, bringing in great wrestlers and also great individuals, and his team planning for future years.

But I'd also add that I've gotten fantastic insight from reading this forum, (Dice's recent threads being good examples). Cael is not laying out all his future plans. We could all be patient and wait for Cael to reveal his plans, but in the mean time, it's great to get input from folks on threads like this one. And I find many posters to be very knowledgeable and willing to share information. I am a novice/newbie wrestling fan, and I really love this forum.
 
...as far as I am concerned it matters not one bit to me what anyone else thinks about our recruits ... EXCEPT for Cael and the rest of our staff...
...they know what they are looking for in a recruit ... most others have NO CLUE ... but thas just my opinion ...
Pitt does seem to have no clue.
 
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