Ohio State now with 5 2024 5-star recruits.
- Thread starter PSUWrestlingFanSince2011
- Start date
They've been in a league with only Georgia and Alabama in recruiting for about a decade. Guess who doesn't have a recent title with that level of talent?
Yes...and...so what? They make multiple playoffs and at least 'play for a title' sporadically. PSU fans would gladly make that trade of making the playoffs and getting a shot to win one.
Watch out now. Wait for his educated answer. It will go something like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah............ His obsession with OSU is over the top. Sorta like you see on the Auburn board with their obsession with Bama. Totally ridiculous
Sure, I would take multiple playoff appearances. But with that talent for that long without a natty, it is clear that they have underperformed. I'd say that is poor coaching. You give Franklin that talent level over the last 10 years and he would have had multiple national titles.
So it has been 9 seasons since they last won a title...the 2014 campaign with Urban I believe? That sounds like a long time...but how about PSU or Michigan's last...have they each had poor coaching? Perhaps in spots...no doubt. But, there are many factors in that as well. Also, this 10 year span since OSU last won...Bama (and now recently UGA), but primarily Bama was on this historical run of titles, talent, and arguably the best coach of all time. It was like the worst storm possible for the 'next' most talented team in OSU. Still the point lies...a nine year span for a blue-blood seems like a long time from their last title....there are FAR longer stints for other blue bloods as well. And, if JF had that level of talent, he would have multiple titles? I mean ok...perhaps...but he has had tremendous skill-position talent, some of whom are NFL pro bowlers and all pros, and has for the most part, failed in big games...the season defining matchups vs the two heavyweights. You could make a case PSU has easily had more talent at certain positions, i.e. RB, TE, WR than OSU or Michigan has had in specific years. IMO, we have had more than enough talent to at least make the playoffs once...at least.
It's relative to talent. PSU and Michigan aren't supposed to win titles with their talent. Ohio St should have.
For example, here is the 2022 season top 25 talent composite. Notice Alabama, Georgia and Ohio St in the top tier well above Texas A&M and Clemson. Then another big gap down to Texas, Oregon, LSU, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, USC, etc.
PSU's talent composite was 15th, but we finished #7 in the country. That's pretty good. But 15th ranked talent is not likely to win a national title. Ohio St has been either #1, #2, or #3 in team composite talent going back to 2017. In 2016 they dipped to #5. Other than that, they have been top 3 every year since they have been doing the team talent composite of all recruiting classes on the rosters. They should have a title in there somewhere but they don't.
- RankTeamTotal
- 1
Alabama
85 Commits
94.48- 14
- 61
- 9
- 2
Georgia
85 Commits
93.37- 15
- 53
- 17
- 3
Ohio State
84 Commits
92.82- 14
- 52
- 16
- 4
Texas A&M
83 Commits
91.85- 10
- 46
- 25
- 5
Clemson
83 Commits
91.15- 12
- 39
- 29
- 6
Texas
85 Commits
90.80- 6
- 53
- 25
- 7
Oregon
85 Commits
90.54- 5
- 46
- 34
- 8
LSU
72 Commits
90.55- 5
- 33
- 30
- 9
Oklahoma
82 Commits
90.60- 3
- 48
- 30
- 10
Notre Dame
82 Commits
90.64- 2
- 51
- 28
- 11
USC
83 Commits
89.34- 3
- 37
- 38
- 12
Miami
84 Commits
89.68- 2
- 44
- 35
- 13
Michigan
85 Commits
90.16- 3
- 41
- 41
- 14
Florida
81 Commits
89.43- 4
- 39
- 36
- 15
Penn State
78 Commits
90.10- 3
- 40
- 35
- 16
North Carolina
77 Commits
89.07- 4
- 30
- 39
- 17
Florida State
85 Commits
88.49- 0
- 31
- 52
- 18
Auburn
80 Commits
88.18- 1
- 33
- 43
- 19
Tennessee
85 Commits
87.77- 2
- 24
- 56
- 20
Washington
79 Commits
87.59- 2
- 25
- 46
- 21
South Carolina
85 Commits
87.65- 3
- 21
- 60
- 22
Ole Miss
85 Commits
87.89- 1
- 24
- 59
- 23
Stanford
85 Commits
87.92- 0
- 21
- 64
- 24
Nebraska
84 Commits
87.70- 1
- 22
- 59
- 25
Arkansas
79 Commits
87.80- 2
- 23
- 52
But, what does that mean 'aren't supposed to win a title'? I mean...sure only five teams can be in the top 5 recruiting annual rankings, or in this case top 4....so does that mean they should really be the only 4 to make the playoffs? You are being too literal...you know as a sports fan that means a hill of beans. Recruiting rankings are flimsy and ridiculous for the most part...and have many variables like size of the class, and now the portal etc. Also, guys get improperly ranked...i.e. Barkley. Sports don't play out like chalk where the most talented teams either win a title or make the playoffs every yr. But, in that case, let's look at the teams that have at least made the CFB playoffs that aren't in the perceived top 5 or so of the recruiting rankings most years....Washington, MSU, ND, OU etc. They at least gave themselves the opportunity to win it all by making the playoffs. Based on your logic, if JF never routinely is a top five recruiter, than your standards are for him to have no standards from championship standpoint...that if he never makes a playoff in let's say 30 years at PSU, that is ok b/c the recruiting rankings dictate that? I think that is ridiculous. I'm not saying or slanting my conversation here about winning a title..it's simply making the playoffs every once in awhile...which based on the teams you mentioned above and that I cited here, have all at least made the playoffs without being a recruiting machine.
1) Paragraphs are you friend. It is hard to read your stream of thought here.
2) Size of class doesn't matter in this composite team ranking. It is the 85 guys on scholarship on the roster that matter and where they were ranked. And it absolutely does matter.
3) You aren't winning a national championship without elite talent (at minimum top 10 on the list). Top 10 talent doesn't guarantee results. Coaching and development matter. Look at Texas A&M.
4) There is a huge gap after the top 3. Those top 3 should be winning multiple national titles. Alabama and Georgia have. Ohio St has underperformed.
Recruiting rankings of 16 to 18 year old high school football players do indicate a level of talent, but the rankings are not always correct.
And they are not destiny.
And they are not destiny.
LOL, yeah I know...I need to space my thoughts with paragraphs.
For the most part, hasn't JF had mostly Top 10-12 classes? His coaching and development has been tremendous, simply by seeing all the positions we were woeful at putting guys into the NFL from, i.e. in the secondary, especially. He has brought in way more talent in his decade here than we had in previous decades combined at various positions...yet that hasn't translated to a playoff at this point.
As to your number 3, I agree with you and was the point I made in the previous reply...those programs out of the top 10 that have made the playoffs did so with development, coaching, fortunate breaks, etc. Much goes into that. My claim is, PSU should at least be in that discussion by now of "a playoff team that is trying to win a title," rather than "trying to make the playoffs for the first time." B/c in essence, these 10 years of the playoffs have shown, you don't have to be in the top 10 recruiting to make the playoffs, but a title, yes I agree for the most part.
As to #4, we all play the 'what if' game...so it means nothing for me to do it here, but I will anyways
If that OSU kicker doesn't shank that kick so badly, they win a title last year. TCU was a high school team. But, obviously OSU didn't....however they went toe-to-toe and in many ways outplayed UGA until MHJR went down. I agree, based on talent, they should have more than one title in the playoff era; but, I would trade our decade for theirs in a second.
Individual rankings are highly variable. The composite rankings of 85 players over multiple years is not as variable.
The variability of a measurement (that's what an individual ranking is) is the standard deviation. This is your uncertainty in a single player's rating.
In the composite talent rankings you have 85 measurements. Therefore, you apply the standard deviation of the mean where SDOM = SD/(square root of n) where n is the number of measured values or 85.
The math tells you that the variability in the composite rankings is almost 10 times less than the variability of a single player's ranking. This is what scientists do when they have multiple trials of an experiment. It is applicable to measuring 85 players rankings on a roster as it is to measuring 85 non-human subjects or 85 samples of a substance or 85 of any variable in an experiment.
My point is that if you want to win, maybe this 4 star doesn't pan out but 40+ on your roster will ensure that enough do.
PSU's team talent composite says that we are the #15 most talented roster in the game. They only take the top 4 teams in the playoff. And Ohio St and Michigan have been ahead of PSU in team talent composite for a long time. They don't put 3 teams from the same conference in the playoff when there are only 4.LOL, yeah I know...I need to space my thoughts with paragraphs.
For the most part, hasn't JF had mostly Top 10-12 classes? His coaching and development has been tremendous, simply by seeing all the positions we were woeful at putting guys into the NFL from, i.e. in the secondary, especially. He has brought in way more talent in his decade here than we had in previous decades combined at various positions...yet that hasn't translated to a playoff at this point.
As to your number 3, I agree with you and was the point I made in the previous reply...those programs out of the top 10 that have made the playoffs did so with development, coaching, fortunate breaks, etc. Much goes into that. My claim is, PSU should at least be in that discussion by now of "a playoff team that is trying to win a title," rather than "trying to make the playoffs for the first time." B/c in essence, these 10 years of the playoffs have shown, you don't have to be in the top 10 recruiting to make the playoffs, but a title, yes I agree for the most part.
As to #4, we all play the 'what if' game...so it means nothing for me to do it here, but I will anyways
When the playoffs expand to 12, do your standards change then as to if they should be a playoff team? You know this stuff isn't linear...teams play to their level of talent, some rise above, most probably fall below.
IMO, it's more accurate to evaluate position by position vs OSU and Umich and see where we have the edge, and then make your assessments accordingly.
I mean in theory based on your stock into recruiting rankings vs team performance, and this is just an example...say OSU has 12 guys in a particular recruiting class and 10 of them are five-star WR"s...obviously that class will be Top 2 or 3 at worst...but is their whole roster really like that? The flat answer is no...neither is Bama's or UGA's...nobody's starting 22 is anywhere near all five stars.
There are positions PSU is better than OSU and Umich, and obviously positions they aren't. But, if our 2's and 3's aren't as highly ranked, it doesn't mean expectations should be based on aggregate rankings. That's all I'm saying.
I think the idea that simply based on 'talent composite' as you put it, going 10-2 every year losing to OSU and Mich is acceptable, I think you'll find the vast majority strongly disagree. Because as I just mentioned in the above graph, most of those 'highly ranked recruits' aren't seeing the field day or year 1.
When it goes to 12 teams, PSU will make the playoffs maybe 50% of the time which is what their team composite talent indicates.
Not even Ohio State recruits 10 WRs in a single class. That example is pretty silly.
At which positions do you think we should be more talented than Ohio State?
This year? Our LB corps and starting CB's, at least based on performance are better. I'm not going on recruiting stars. Also, Allar as a blue-chip 5 star QB who got playing time last year, should be in a better spot than OSU's impending QB. We also return more guys on the OL than OSU, where that has been a weak spot for them. I'm not asking this being snarky, I'm not sure..but barring injuries to Olu or King...does OSU have projected 1st round LT and CB? I don't think so this year. But, obviously, nobody recruits WR's like OSU...maybe Bama, but that's it. So, no question that position is miles ahead of PSU.
I understand and agree with your point on the surface -- as an aggregate OSU's roster is better...but not everyone plays who is higher ranked...just not possible.
CB-
Ohio St has 8 four stars on their roster including 5 ranked higher than the highest on PSU's roster. PSU has 4.
LB-
Ohio St has 1 five star and 9 four stars and 3 ranked higher than the highest on PSU's roster. PSU has 5 four stars.
OL-
Ohio St has 1 five star and 10 four stars and only 1 ranked higher than the highest on PSU's roster (true freshman Williams). PSU has 9 four stars.
Would you trade Penn State's Abdul Carter (number 232 on Rivals final 2022 rankings) for any of those Ohio State Linebackers?
Right, that's the point...the recruiting rankings only matter that year you bring them in. How players develop, or don't develop, moves the goalposts on how you evaluate that position vs another team.
To your point, I'm not trading Abdul or Curtis for any of their LB's. Expectations, at least mine, change based on roster development/cultivation. Hence why TAMU blows chunks right now despite their high recruiting rankings. They have been a disaster. And, it's why many media outlets have PSU winning the B1G, or at least a dark-horse playoff team...i.e. a perceived dynamic duo of starting CB's, an uber talented LB, a five-star gunslinger in Allar, two great RB's, a veteran OL, and a multitude of pass rushers. I don't give a rats a** what our overall roster ranking is...how about at worst, split with OSU and Mich, and actually live up to the solid press. MSU, Washington, ND, all have made the playoffs without anywhere near top 4 rosters.
This idea that JF or any HC outside of the Top 4 in annual recruiting rankings should get a pass b/c, in theory, they don't have a roster of Top 4 caliber, is insane. It should be evaluating how positions develop vs another team, not recruiting stars.
Of course not. But the point is that even at the few positions our fans believe we have an advantage, they recruited above us. We struct gold on a few and developed the rest enough to compete at a very high level.
But if you give Franklin Ohio St's recruits and Day the PSU recruits then the games wouldn't even be close.
As a long time OSU fan and graduate, I would like to point out something. For a B1G school to win the natty, it has to do 2 things.
1. Win the B1G (usually). That means beating very good, probably run-oriented teams like UM and PSU.
2. Beat the best southern schools where the emphasis is more on speed and generally the passing game. Also, do this in the south. Where did OSU play Georgia? In Georgia.
It is hard for a B1G team to make the playoffs, much harder to win it.
Not making excuses, just pointing out how hard it is.
When was the last time a northern school not named OSU won the NC?
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Look at one of the Buckeyes best WR's over the past 10 years; Chris Olave, 3 Star, rated the #74 WR in his class. He was just as good or better than the top #5 WR's OSU has been getting over the years.
3 Star #74; sounds like a PSU Commit.....
3 Star #74; sounds like a PSU Commit.....
Just explaining why it is hard for a northern team to win the natty. If PSU ever makes the playoffs you will come to understand what I am saying instead of scoffing at it.
Why are you even debating anything OSU with this guy? He's so envious, it's comical.
OSU has OWNED PSU the last 10 or 15 years ........ya think that might have something to do with his BS? You talk trash when you can back it up - that hasn't sunk in with him yet
I can't believe I'm going to agree with Online Persona, but as an OSU fan for the last 40 years I do agree that they've have underachieved relative to the talent. The lack of national titles is the #1 complaint of any OSU fan. On the reddit cfb sub there is an ongoing thread ranking the top cfb teams of the last 40 years and OSU came in at #2 for this reason; Alabama was #1. I do believe Day will get it done soon as long as he can continue to recruit at this rate. It is very tough to recruit like this when most of the elite talent, especially on the DL, is in SEC territory. That is why OSU is the only Northern team to have won titles since the BCS since they are the only Northern team to consistently get 5* talent out of the South.
I guess what I'm missing is why should
Don't be shocked to see Alabama win it all in 2023. Something tells me they're POd about the last couple of years and , obviously, they have a stacked roster - as usual
I have no dog in this fight, but the problem OSU - and many others - have had winning it all is located in Tuscaloosa Alabama. Parity is a bigger factor today than it was in the 20th century and Alabama has just dominated since Saban was hired in around 2005 or 2006 or somewhere around that time. Don't exactly care for Saban and Alabama but will give them their due. Might be the best run ever and Saban has probably evolved into the greatest CF coach of all-time.
Don't be shocked to see Alabama win it all in 2023. Something tells me they're POd about the last couple of years and , obviously, they have a stacked roster - as usual
Alabama qb situation isn't looking good, but they are stacked otherwise. The highest talent composite ever at 90%. After Bryant retired, Alabama had a hard time replacing him. Stallings won a title, but a slew of average to below average coaches. It will be interesting to see if they can continue being elite after Saban retires.
Georgia, Alabama and OSU will all be starting a new QB and something tells me all 3 of those programs will be just fine. All 3 programs - especially OSU - will surround those new QBs with mind-boggling offensive talent. Don't believe everything that Saban throws out preseason. I'm picking an OSU - Alabama NC game with Bama winning 38-35
I also keep reading about the new faces on the OSU OL. When was the last time OSU didn't have a really good OL? They'll also be fine especially as the year goes on
Just as a mental exercise, lets count the decades where Alabama did not win a title. Then lets count the number of different coaches that have won titles there. Until their overall program success has been equaled, they will be the very definition of elite.
Dabo is just biding his time before Saban's retirement, ready to join the rare club of coaches to win titles at more than one program. How many have won a title as both player and coach at his alma mater? He has the potential to even surpass the GOAT with titles.
Nah, I'm sure Bama is gonna collapse after Saban, no one can replace a legend, right?
Agree 100%. That's been every program's problem from the time Saban took over at Alabama. Keep in mind, he also won a title at LSU. And if you've ever listened to Saban, you would think his program is falling apart. Look for Alabama to come out this year kicking butt
Apparently they are since the teams with the best recruiting rankings keep winning.
Sorry, not ready to make large assumptions when I see a TCU in the playoffs and Texas A&M struggle.
Plenty more examples.
Good recruiting is important but not the only thing and no guarantee of future successes.
TCU verses Georgia tells you all you need to know. They weren't a legitimate threat for the title. They were a nice story.
We should have made the playoff at least once under Franklin. Throw out talent level and look at game performance. Probably 2017 was the year to do it and we certainly underperformed. Yeah we won the Fiesta Bowl but totally blew the games vs OSU and Sparty. No excuses. You could also argue 2016, should never have lost to Pitt. Defense totally unprepared the first half.
Overall OSU is on a different level than us from a talent perspective. QB being the key position they have had an advantage. With that said we shoukd not have as bad a record as we have had vs them since '17. We can't be on 0 for. You can make a strong argument we should have won in 2017 and 2018. Recruiting is vital and acquiring the best talent is paramount but you still need to develop the talent and coach/play the games. With some of the talent we have had over the last 6-7 years there was enough to make the playoffs and it showed vs OSU and Mich but we could not seal the deal vs OSU. Of course losing to Sparty in '17 and '18 was inexcusable.
1000% agreed. Especially 2017 when we were building off of 2016 - that had to be the year. Totally whiffed.
Of course there are exceptions every year but if you look at the OVERALL recruiting rankings, it's primarily the recruiting big boys that makes the most noise every season.
Development is the 2nd phase and that's where teams like TCU and Michigan do an excellent job - especially Michigan when you compare their recruiting rankings to OSU's. Iowa and Ferentz is another top-notch player developer
It the bottom line is Georgia and Alabama win pretty much every year and they have the two best recruiting classes every year. OSU is usually the third team and they’re also up there in recruiting….so three out of four spots are taken almost every year by the top three recruiting teams….it is the main thing that guarantees success. Kirby Smart or Nick Saban aren’t winning a NC with another team’s talent.
I agree for the most part...but the main talking point from yesterday in this thread is simply being a playoff team -- which doesn't require UGA, ALA or OSU-type recruiting, as the multiple examples listed. Winning a title, yes, for the most part, you are right. However, simply my opinion, PSU has had more than enough talent (specifically in 2017) to make the playoffs.
