OT: ‘Intersex’ Olympian loses appeal against IAAF testosterone rules...

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Could be a landmark ruling. Excerpt below and link to article here:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/48102479

Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.

But Cas said it had "serious concerns as to the future practical application" of the regulations.

Olympic 800m champion Semenya, 28, said in response to the ruling that the IAAF "have always targeted me specifically".

Now she - and other athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) - must either take medication in order to compete in track events from 400m to the mile, or change to another distance.

"For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," said Semenya in a statement.

"I will once again rise above and continue to inspire young women and athletes in South Africa and around the world."

Previously, she had said that she wanted to "run naturally, the way I was born".

 

[4rosco]

Previously, she had said that she wanted to "run naturally, the way I was born".

They she should run naturally against those that were born the same way as her.

 

[interrobang]

"

• Worries that athletes might unintentionally break the strict testosterone levels set by the IAAF;"

How would a woman unintentionally have too much testosterone?

 

[Pardlion]

I'm confused.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I'm confused.

It’s mostly about this:

People who have differences in sexual development can have both male and female characteristics. They may be born with testes, have a different genetic makeup and, crucially, have higher-than-average testosterone levels for female athletes.

 

[Pardlion]

It’s mostly about this:

People who have differences in sexual development can have both male and female characteristics. They may be born with testes, have a different genetic makeup and, crucially, have higher-than-average testosterone levels for female athletes.

Oh, so this person has balls. Not a woman.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Oh, so this person has balls. Not a woman.

I’m not sure, but the high testosterone is an issue apparently.

 

[Obliviax]

There are two options:

• recognize some kind of different
• have one contest regardless of genetic makeup

Unless they want to have no women's sporting events, this is a prudent path. It will probably be refined over time, but there isn't much other choice. Good luck with that. One event, 100m dash, the men's record is 9.58. The 25th best time is 9.87. For women, the record is 10.49. The 25th best time is 10.87.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

There are two options:

• recognize some kind of different
• have one contest regardless of genetic makeup

Unless they want to have no women's sporting events, this is a prudent path. It will probably be refined over time, but there isn't much other choice. Good luck with that. One event, 100m dash, the men's record is 9.58. The 25th best time is 9.87. For women, the record is 10.49. The 25th best time is 10.87.

99% of the world fits into either male or female. I don’t know how much you can parse athletic events to cater to those with DSD, but there definitely appears to be an advantage for Ms. Semenya. She’s dominated for years. Not her fault for being born the way she is, but not fair to the other competitors who suffer as a result. It’s hard because inclusion is important, but so is a level playing field. Will be interesting to see what happens if she competes under the new rules (assuming they stand).

 

[Obliviax]

99% of the world fits into either male or female. I don’t know how much you can parse athletic events to cater to those with DSD, but there definitely appears to be an advantage for Ms. Semenya. She’s dominated for years. Not her fault for being born the way she is, but not fair to the other competitors who suffer as a result. It’s hard because inclusion is important, but so is a level playing field. Will be intersecting to see what happens if she competes under the new rules (assuming they stand).

Agree....can you define, legally, "female" for me? I no longer can. It appears to me, with this ruling, that is exactly what they are trying to do.

 

[interrobang]

This person is scientifically a mix of genders, so you do have to have sympathy for her. But, you can't change the rules for 1 person.

 

[LionJim]

This person is scientifically a mix of genders, so you do have to have sympathy for her. But, you can't change the rules for 1 person.

Yeah, sucks.

 

[brupsu]

If she consistently runs a faster time than all the other girls then set her starting position behind the rest of the field.That would avoid all the other invasive or potentially dangerous drugs or procedures she would face and level the field naturally.Does this make sense?

 

[Obliviax]

This person is scientifically a mix of genders, so you do have to have sympathy for her. But, you can't change the rules for 1 person.

This is a worldwide problem. And while some may think this common sense, the legal world may look at it differently. So this "1%" has their rights and will seek to exercise those rights in court. USA high schools are struggling with this concept today, as well. No easy answers....I suspect.

 

[pandaczar12]

Oh, so this person has balls. Not a woman.

If my Aunt had balls, she'd be... ineligible to compete in the 400m.

 

[Op2]

If she consistently runs a faster time than all the other girls then set her starting position behind the rest of the field.That would avoid all the other invasive or potentially dangerous drugs or procedures she would face and level the field naturally.Does this make sense?

Maybe we could also have the women that have the normal amount of testosterone but are just naturally faster start behind the rest of the field. And we could let the especially slow women start ahead of the field.

 

[Pardlion]

This person is scientifically a mix of genders, so you do have to have sympathy for her. But, you can't change the rules for 1 person.

Well, she could give up her balls. You know, like every other guy does when he gets married.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Maybe we could also have the women that have the normal amount of testosterone but are just naturally faster start behind the rest of the field. And we could let the especially slow women start ahead of the field.

I think the bigger question asked and acknowledged by the judges' ruling is 'Does testosterone make that much of a difference?' I would think other genetic issues would provide more of an advantage such as muscle mass as it relates to strength in the upper and lower body. If she lowers her testosterone and still dominates then what?

 

[Lyons212]

This is a worldwide problem. And while some may think this common sense, the legal world may look at it differently. So this "1%" has their rights and will seek to exercise those rights in court. USA high schools are struggling with this concept today, as well. No easy answers....I suspect.

This is not the same issue that high school are dealing with. As Interrobang stated Semenya was born with organs of both genders. In the book "The Sports Gene", I believe Semenya has testicles that did not fully develop and are recessed and has female plumbing. Apparently several fashion models also have this condition. But the condition results in higher testosterone, giving Semenya a big advantage over female competitors.

The issue in high school is fully developed boys claiming to be girls being allowed to compete as girls and essentially crushing the competition. The boys are typically average boys in athletic ability. Semenya on the surface is female with some under-developed male organs.

 

[PSUcup1]

I think the bigger question asked and acknowledged by the judges' ruling is 'Does testosterone make that much of a difference?' I would think other genetic issues would provide more of an advantage such as muscle mass as it relates to strength in the upper and lower body. If she lowers her testosterone and still dominates then what?

Higher testerone levels directly results in increased muscle mass & other physical advantages.

This is a really tough one as she was born this way. I feel for her and am not sure what the right answer is.

The idea of allowing men who choose to become women to compete against actual women is absurd and unfair.

 

[KnightSlayer]

There are two options:

• recognize some kind of different
• have one contest regardless of genetic makeup

Unless they want to have no women's sporting events, this is a prudent path. It will probably be refined over time, but there isn't much other choice. Good luck with that. One event, 100m dash, the men's record is 9.58. The 25th best time is 9.87. For women, the record is 10.49. The 25th best time is 10.87.

If testosterone is so important in regards to athletic competition, maybe participants should be assigned groups by testosterone level rather than sex. If it is unfair for this woman to compete with other women with lower testosterone, then is it unfair for a man to compete against another man with much higher testosterone? Normal testosterone in men is 280 to 1,100 nanograms per deciliter.

 

[Obliviax]

If testosterone is so important in regards to athletic competition, maybe participants should be assigned groups by testosterone level rather than sex. If it is unfair for this woman to compete with other women with lower testosterone, then is it unfair for a man to compete against another man with much higher testosterone? Normal testosterone in men is 280 to 1,100 nanograms per deciliter.

If I am reading the OP correctly, that is exactly what they are doing.

 

[KnightSlayer]

If I am reading the OP correctly, that is exactly what they are doing.

So we're going to see something like... The 100m 800 and above T levels. The 100m 500 - 800 T levels. The 100m 300 - 499 T levels. The 100m 100 - 299 T levels. The under 100 T level.

 

[Obliviax]

So we're going to see something like... The 100m 800 and above T levels. The 100m 500 - 800 T levels. The 100m 300 - 499 T levels. The 100m 100 - 299 T levels. The under 100 T level.

Awesome! I think they are saying anything above this is considered male/open category...anything below xxxT is considered the female category.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Awesome! I think they are saying anything above this is considered male/open category...anything below xxxT is considered the female category.

I understand that. I was just making the point about testosterone. If it is so important in athletic competition, then why does a man with a 280 T level have to compete with a man who has an 1100 T level? Is that fair? Maybe the man / woman categories are too narrow.

 

[LionDeNittany]

It’s mostly about this:

People who have differences in sexual development can have both male and female characteristics. They may be born with testes, have a different genetic makeup and, crucially, have higher-than-average testosterone levels for female athletes.

Sounds like a perfect candidate to run in the "open" division which we currently call "mens"

Olympics will move to a open and womens model which will end much of this controversy.

Women.. born female.

LdN

 

[brupsu]

Maybe we could also have the women that have the normal amount of testosterone but are just naturally faster start behind the rest of the field. And we could let the especially slow women start ahead of the field.

Lol

 

[Obliviax]

I understand that. I was just making the point about testosterone. If it is so important in athletic competition, then why does a man with a 280 T level have to compete with a man who has an 1100 T level? Is that fair? Maybe the man / woman categories are too narrow.

Agree...the challenge is that masculinity/femininity is now a continuum. Previously, it was binary: You are a male or you are a female. Unless, per your previous post, we have 5 different T levels for each event (and then someone would want to have six), we are going to need to create classifications. Add in people like the blade runner: how much augmentation is also acceptable? This isn't going to get easier.

 

[Cpeplion]

Castrated Semen...nice name

 

[fastlax16]

99% of the world fits into either male or female. I don’t know how much you can parse athletic events to cater to those with DSD, but there definitely appears to be an advantage for Ms. Semenya. She’s dominated for years. Not her fault for being born the way she is, but not fair to the other competitors who suffer as a result. It’s hard because inclusion is important, but so is a level playing field. Will be interesting to see what happens if she competes under the new rules (assuming they stand).

And Gheorge Muresan is 7’7 because of a growth disorder but no one wanted to ban him from basketball because his height was unfair.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

And Gheorge Muresan is 7’7 because of a growth disorder but no one wanted to ban him from basketball because his height was unfair.

I don’t know that his situation is the same as hers but point taken.

 

[fastlax16]

I don’t know that his situation is the same as hers but point taken.

If she’s biologically a woman she should compete with women. Many elite athletes have something in their biology that gives them advantages in their respective sports.

 

[wbcincy]

If she’s biologically a woman she should compete with women. Many elite athletes have something in their biology that gives them advantages in their respective sports.

But therein lies the quandary, is she biologically a woman when she also has some male parts?

This has no good answer. On the one hand, you feel terrible for her because she certainly can't help how she was born. She seemingly was born with just enough male anatomy to render her ineligible for women's competition, but not enough to allow her to be competitive with men. So she's in....no man's land, as it were.

 

[KnightSlayer]

But therein lies the quandary, is she biologically a women when she also has some parts?

This has no good answer. On the one hand, you feel terrible for her because she certainly can't help how she was born. She seemingly was born with just enough male anatomy to render her ineligible for women's competition, but not enough to allow her to be competitive with men. So she's in....no man's land, as it were.

Who sets that standard?

 

[interrobang]

This is a worldwide problem. And while some may think this common sense, the legal world may look at it differently. So this "1%" has their rights and will seek to exercise those rights in court. USA high schools are struggling with this concept today, as well. No easy answers....I suspect.

USA high schools are struggling with political correctness of transgenders. If you made rules for all the 1% scenarios, then every single person would have their own custom rule

 

[fastlax16]

But therein lies the quandary, is she biologically a women when she also has some parts?

This has no good answer. On the one hand, you feel terrible for her because she certainly can't help how she was born. She seemingly was born with just enough male anatomy to render her ineligible for women's competition, but not enough to allow her to be competitive with men. So she's in....no man's land, as it were.

Birth certificate says she’s a woman, no?

 

[TheBigUglies]

Well, that does it, since my T levels are pretty freaking low(middle age) and I have moobs, I am going to go try out for D1 womens sports teams since I still have 4 years eligibility left!

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Birth certificate says she’s a woman, no?

Birth certificates in S. Africa only have a male/female option. But that may change soon.

 

[PS4814]

Birth certificates in S. Africa only have a male/female option. But that may change soon.

California, Oregon, Washington, New Jersey and New York City all have gender neutral options on birth certificates at this point just as an fyi to the convo.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

California, Oregon, Washington, New Jersey and New York City all have gender neutral options on birth certificates at this point just as an fyi to the convo.

I read that. I think S. Africa is considering adding that option as well per the article I read (from 2018).