Not sure why I can't find the results for PA AAA District 1 Finals. Can someone provide me a link? My sister in-law's nephew A. Gordon is the number one seed at 160 and made it to the finals. Curious how those in the know where they think he'll be seeded at regionals? Thanks in advance. He's in section South
PA HS Wrestling thread
- Thread starter El-Jefe
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Thanks. That doesn't have the results, but I had to disable my popup blocker to see the results. He won by fall in the finals.
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We're not.
Between Van Ness, Kasak, Perry, and Weiss, we'll be OK at 149. If Simcox grows to 157, there's PJ Duke.
Bite your tongue on 133 with Mason Gibson at that weight!
I'd put both Milheims as "can win" instead of "should win." 145 Reagan won 1-0 over Barvitskie this weekend, and last year beat Hontz 2-1. 152 Cam has Melvin Miller, Brady Collins, and Max Stein at his weight. Collins beat him 5-3 earlier this year.
Garcia is likely gonna curb stomp 189 this year. This is not a strong weight. The only guy he didn't bonus all year (Finck) dropped to 172 for the postseason. He beat the highest returning placer (Daniels, S4) 8-0, and Daniels got pinned at districts for good measure. There is one other undefeated guy (Warke), who last year went 18-16 including 0-2 at states.
There are 2 guys in D6 who will make noise at 189: Close from BEA and McGonagle from Huntingdon.
Make noise? Sure. Beat Garcia? Doubt it. They're basically even with each other, having split matches. Close has finished S7 and S8; McGonagle has yet to place. Both got beaten handily against the top AAA guys (Hogan and Bartram).
Both Milheims have great poise. He could have gotten the 1 and tied it. He found the reversal. D4 has so many different sets of brothers I enjoy watching. The Milheims and Harers are my favorites. I was disappointed the way the boo’ed during Cam vs Wentzel. Conner and Brandt are just on a mission.
District 11 down a little .Still have a couple of studs that should win it all. (Rath, Kinney in AAA, Ayden Smith AA) Very young District 11 Champs this year, 18 of 26 weights were underclassmen. Surprising Nazareth had most AAA champs,4. Notre Dame advanced 11, would of had 12 but LaPenna got disqualified last week on BS call at team duals. A kid tried to punch? him and Lapenna reacted with a push and kid took a dive. The kids coach was embarrassed by the situation. Video is out there, I still can't figure that stuff out.
I just dont see how the ref can award the reversal when Barvitskie had a side headlock. The other ref came over to tell him he was wrong and he didn't care. Head ref for the weekend and he blew the call in a big way. I dont think anyonevwas booing the wrestler, they were booing the ref.
It's not easy to ref for certain, but you want the best guys in the biggest matches. It's a shame that D4 has to send out guys to ref like Fritz Snyder and others to make the calls in big matches, even though he wasn't the one who made this questionable call. Many of them are just out of their element at that level. And before people complain that I should "pick up the whistle before I complain," I officiated for 12 years while coaching college wrestling before I gave it up simply due to not having the time. The highest level of events deserve competent officials, not just relatives due to nepotism. I don't know what the answer is, but I just hope that more solid wrestlers don't lose chances due to inadequate officiating.
No disagreement at all.
If there is a time for a match to be decided on a questionable call, this was it -- a District final in which both guys are pretty much locks to reach the Regional final, and therefore the match will have no impact on qualification or seeding at states.
Two things to add about District 11 AAA finals.
Rath after pinning to finals had a tough match against Dearmrst from Pocono Mountain 5-1.
Easton Salamone is a tough Sophomore who wrestled a majority at 114 dropped to 107 and won title.
Rath after pinning to finals had a tough match against Dearmrst from Pocono Mountain 5-1.
Easton Salamone is a tough Sophomore who wrestled a majority at 114 dropped to 107 and won title.
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Small correction - Salamone is a Soph. Was at states at 107 last year.
Salamone is tough. IF he can he can handle the cut well, he could win it all. I was surprised to see him down at 107, he looked plenty big to me at 114.
Not D11, but speaking of big. Seeing Martinelli (Pennridge) at 114 this weekend, he looked like he could wrestle 127 without much issue. I have no idea how he made 107 at ETR.
The things guys do to get to the lowest weight class. I wonder why that is??😜
This is where I am on the Milheim/Barvitskie call, Rhino. Unfortunately, I didn't get to ask Jack Young about the ruling, he's always really forthcoming about that stuff if I ask. But I had two thoughts on it: 1) I thought Milheim would have to pop the head out to get control. 2) He is behind Barvitskie with legs thrown in. There's a second left on the clock when he gets the second boot in, so I don't think time is the question. I honestly don't know the rule book well enough to know if being behind with boots in is enough to get the reversal. If it is, then it's a good call. If not, well then that kinda sucks.
As for Cameron getting booed, when people boo while you're getting your medal, they're not booing the official. And that's BS. Don't boo kids.
I didn't see it, but it sure sounds similar to the D'Augustino-Ayala finish.
Here it is. Milheim in gray, Barvitskie in black. Looks like Milheim never hooked Barvitskie's left leg with his own left leg.
Milheim hooked his right leg and immediately got a figure 4 on Barvitskie's right leg. That's when the ref called R2.
That final position is a cross-body ride and very similar to the start of a guillotine.
Milheim hooked his right leg and immediately got a figure 4 on Barvitskie's right leg. That's when the ref called R2.
That final position is a cross-body ride and very similar to the start of a guillotine.
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IMHO, I don’t believe that’s a reversal. Kid still had a head and arm lock.
It looks a lot like Merkel positioning and would mean a Merkel where the lag lace is lost by the offensive wrestler results in a reversal.
It's not a merkel. That would mean Barvitskie had used his left leg to hook Milheim's right leg. Barvitskie did not hook either of Milheim's legs.
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To me it’s a reversal. Once he gets the boot in he has control. I can’t see a scenario of how he would lose control at that point in the short term.
Yeah, this looks like a reversal to me. The position looks more closely related to when someone steps over a whizzer and slips the leg in to finish a takedown. Obtaining that cross-body leg position is deemed control from neutral, so I'm leaning that way here as well. I've not sure I've ever seen this particular position before.
I'll also say that either call feels pretty defensible for this odd position. Unless this particular referee was blowing more straightforward calls throughout the tournament, the criticism in this thread seems unjustified in my opinion.
I agree, but separate from this situation, if someone has a Merkel (leg laced) gets the takedown and then the leg lace comes free, they end up in a similar position.
There are some other monster matchup this weekend at regionals. Not listing all of them -- there are too many! -- but here are a few possibilities:
SE AA 114 finals: Ayden Smith (NDGP SR, 42-2, S1, Rutger commit) vs. Will Detar (Trinity SO, 31-2, S3)
SE AA 121 finals: Gauge Botero (FCA JR, 24-1, S1, Michigan) vs. Aaron Seidel (N. Lebanon JR, 45-1, 2x S1, VT). Note, the winner will likely get returning S1 Louie Gill in the state semis, thanks to PA's seeding system (Gill was ineligible for last year's postseason after transferring).
SW AA 285 finals: Brenan Morgan (Central Valley SR, 35-0, S2, Virginia) vs. Dylan Pitzer (Mt. Pleasant SO, 37-1)
SW AAA brackets have not yet been released, but the one matchup to watch is at 114 with Landon Sidun (Norwin FR, 35-1, ranked #1 in PA) vs. Santino Sloboda (Butler SO, 32-0, S4).
Sidun is definitely a name to remember in a couple years. His only loss was up a weight, 3-2 to S2 Mason Ziegler. He beat: NP5 Lukas Littleton-Mascaro (at 120), S1 Keanu Dillard (at 121), NP1 Davis Motyka, and S1 Ayden Smith among others.
SE AA 114 finals: Ayden Smith (NDGP SR, 42-2, S1, Rutger commit) vs. Will Detar (Trinity SO, 31-2, S3)
SE AA 121 finals: Gauge Botero (FCA JR, 24-1, S1, Michigan) vs. Aaron Seidel (N. Lebanon JR, 45-1, 2x S1, VT). Note, the winner will likely get returning S1 Louie Gill in the state semis, thanks to PA's seeding system (Gill was ineligible for last year's postseason after transferring).
SW AA 285 finals: Brenan Morgan (Central Valley SR, 35-0, S2, Virginia) vs. Dylan Pitzer (Mt. Pleasant SO, 37-1)
SW AAA brackets have not yet been released, but the one matchup to watch is at 114 with Landon Sidun (Norwin FR, 35-1, ranked #1 in PA) vs. Santino Sloboda (Butler SO, 32-0, S4).
Sidun is definitely a name to remember in a couple years. His only loss was up a weight, 3-2 to S2 Mason Ziegler. He beat: NP5 Lukas Littleton-Mascaro (at 120), S1 Keanu Dillard (at 121), NP1 Davis Motyka, and S1 Ayden Smith among others.
Any comments on the D-3 AAA Regionals results and some possible contenders at States?
I was glad to see my old high school, Cedar Cliff, starting to re-load with freshmen talent -- Ayden Herndon winning at 107 and Kavin Muyleart advancing with 3rd at 114.
Recognize Kaedyn Williams, undefeated at 114 and Tucker Hogan at 189.
Who else can make noise at States?
I was glad to see my old high school, Cedar Cliff, starting to re-load with freshmen talent -- Ayden Herndon winning at 107 and Kavin Muyleart advancing with 3rd at 114.
Recognize Kaedyn Williams, undefeated at 114 and Tucker Hogan at 189.
Who else can make noise at States?
I don't have a great feel for 107 because, well, it's always freshman-heavy. Gut says the top guys will be Salamone (Easton NE), Tancini (Perk Valley SE), and McGarrity (Peters Twp SW). Herndon is probably among the best of the rest.
Williams should finish top 3 at states. Where exactly depends on the SE and SW Regionals -- he might get Sidun in his half at states.
127 Houser should finish top 4, though I don't think he'll get past Binni or Sement.
139 Mack will be either the 2 or 3 seed and should place, but has a brutal bracket and could lose in the quarters. He would place higher at a different weight. Weiss or (more likely) Perry among others in his half, Shaw in the other half. 6 returning placers (including 3 finalists) in the field, plus Nazareth's Campbell is also tough.
160 Garvick is a 2x state finalist and Indiana commit. He will be the 1 seed but get Kunstek in the semis. Win that and get Cunningham in the finals. His floor is 3rd.
At 189, Hogan and Bartram were last year's state finalists and will be again this year, and will obliterate the field. Both are seniors headed to Lock Haven.
Yeah, that's not far from the famous Brian Courtney bracket.
These would also be feature-worthy brackets in many years:
114 AAA with Sidun and Williams
133 AA with Gibson, Harer, and Baum
139 AA with Bassett and Hornack
139 AAA with Perry, Weiss, and Shaw
152 AAA with Rath and Gaj
160 AAA with Cunningham, Kunstek, and Garvick
215 AA with Lawrence and Johnson
285 AAA with Kinney, Pavlechko, Bechtold, and Lachman
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107- Look out for Diaz (beat Tancini earlier this year) and Morrison (beat Diaz and closest anyone has looked to Bachmann in PIAA) both in SE region.
160-Garvick has already lost to Gunnar Myers this year (who is undefeated and could win the NE Region).
Myers will be the 3 seed if he beats Scanlan at regionals (which is not a given). That would put him in Asher's side of the bracket.
Garvick is one of those guys who takes a few losses in the regular season and then turns it on in March. We'll see if he does it again.
EDIT for @hlstone benefit: Myers is committed to NW.
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All great matches here.
Sidun will break Williams. Last time I watched him wrestle he defaulted and throwing up at the pa power card. Sidun is very impressive
Harer is too long for Baum and Gibson. I have Harer to win it. I think Gibson ends up on the same side at states with the PIAA terrible seeding criteria. Baum easy way to the finals.
Bassett vs Hornack could be interesting. Hornack is the returning state champion, but we watched what Bassett did with Simcox at Powerade. Crazy then Simcox beats Pierson. I got Bassett handily in this one.
Rath va Gaj round 15. Get out a shiny coin. Flip it and then go with the opposite. This is too close to call and has been this way for years.
Cunningham has jumped levels. Another product of the NLWC effect. He beats these two easily
Johnson is big and tough, still surprised he didn’t go to hwt and win a title. Rune is too good of a wrestler for AJ.
Kinney wins another one. I will be rooting for pav and he has looked incredible all season.
Some matchups I am eager to watch
Deputy vs Bachman
Bainey vs Sledzianowski (Round 2)
Garcia vs Close
Parkins at 133 ( he will be big and tough there)
Rant alert:
PIAA really should fix its seeding system -- it's antiquated and gives poor results. It screws up both the winners' bracket and consis, and every year some kids will be screwed out of placing. Which means PIAA won't, but whatever.
Current system is to score each regional champ on 2 categories, each max 100 pts:
- Current year Win %
- "Prestige Points" for last year's postseason: S1 = 100, S2 = 95, ... , S8 = 65, R1 = 60, R2 = 55 ... etc. down to Districts placement.
(This same system is used at Regionals, Districts, and Sectionals, but let's f9cus on states.)
The issues are obvious:
- All opponents are equal.
- Incentive for cupcake schedules, against facing better opponents.
- H2H doesn't matter.
- Last year is in the past, should not be a primary driver for this year.
- Wrestlers who missed last postseason get zero Prestige Points and thus the lowest seeds regardless of current results. This means all freshmen, last year's transfers, and anyone who got hurt last year.
Some examples of this system going wrong this year:
- All of the McCort guys will be seeded 4th unless other regional champs also missed the 2023 postseason. Forrest, Bassett, Gibson, Miller, Magro ... all of them.
- AAA 114: Sidun is the clear favorite and has beaten multiple returning state/prep champs. But he's a FR, so he'll be the 4 or 5 seed.
- AA 121 has 3 returning champs: Seidel (2x), Botero, and Gill. Gill will get the 4 seed since he was ineligible for last postseason due to transferring. Seidel and Botero are in the same regional -- the winner gets the 1 seed and Gill in the semis. Not that either would, but this is an obvious incentive to FFT the regional final.
- AAA 139: Weiss is an undefeated returning S2 who beat a state champ at regionals. And he'll be the 5 seed because he missed weight last year.
- AAA 160: Asher and Kunstek are 1-2 in the state. They will be separated at states only because Garvick is the highest returning placer, and because Pottsville resident Kunstek was ineligible last year for transferring from Blair to Pottsville (thus will be the 5 seed). Also, Myers will be seeded below Garvick despite a better record and H2H win, because of last year.
- AA 189: state #1 Garcia will be the 4 seed because he was injured last year. Nobody else at the weight has ever finished higher than 4th.
A far better system would be scoring based on quality wins. "Quality" based upon opponents' postseason placement THIS year (though I could see a marginal bonus for beating a returning medalist). Also H2H used to adjust seeds +/- 1 spot. Easy to implement with 20th Century technology such as Excel.
To be clear: IMO the pre-drawn brackets should work reasonably well if seeding gets corrected. It rewards regional champs for winning regionals, and separating regional finalists is a good thing. Occasionally a semis-level match will happen in the quarters, but that should have little impact on the rest of the bracket and seems like a least-bad outcome. BUT again, if seeding gets corrected.
PIAA really should fix its seeding system -- it's antiquated and gives poor results. It screws up both the winners' bracket and consis, and every year some kids will be screwed out of placing. Which means PIAA won't, but whatever.
Current system is to score each regional champ on 2 categories, each max 100 pts:
- Current year Win %
- "Prestige Points" for last year's postseason: S1 = 100, S2 = 95, ... , S8 = 65, R1 = 60, R2 = 55 ... etc. down to Districts placement.
(This same system is used at Regionals, Districts, and Sectionals, but let's f9cus on states.)
The issues are obvious:
- All opponents are equal.
- Incentive for cupcake schedules, against facing better opponents.
- H2H doesn't matter.
- Last year is in the past, should not be a primary driver for this year.
- Wrestlers who missed last postseason get zero Prestige Points and thus the lowest seeds regardless of current results. This means all freshmen, last year's transfers, and anyone who got hurt last year.
Some examples of this system going wrong this year:
- All of the McCort guys will be seeded 4th unless other regional champs also missed the 2023 postseason. Forrest, Bassett, Gibson, Miller, Magro ... all of them.
- AAA 114: Sidun is the clear favorite and has beaten multiple returning state/prep champs. But he's a FR, so he'll be the 4 or 5 seed.
- AA 121 has 3 returning champs: Seidel (2x), Botero, and Gill. Gill will get the 4 seed since he was ineligible for last postseason due to transferring. Seidel and Botero are in the same regional -- the winner gets the 1 seed and Gill in the semis. Not that either would, but this is an obvious incentive to FFT the regional final.
- AAA 139: Weiss is an undefeated returning S2 who beat a state champ at regionals. And he'll be the 5 seed because he missed weight last year.
- AAA 160: Asher and Kunstek are 1-2 in the state. They will be separated at states only because Garvick is the highest returning placer, and because Pottsville resident Kunstek was ineligible last year for transferring from Blair to Pottsville (thus will be the 5 seed). Also, Myers will be seeded below Garvick despite a better record and H2H win, because of last year.
- AA 189: state #1 Garcia will be the 4 seed because he was injured last year. Nobody else at the weight has ever finished higher than 4th.
A far better system would be scoring based on quality wins. "Quality" based upon opponents' postseason placement THIS year (though I could see a marginal bonus for beating a returning medalist). Also H2H used to adjust seeds +/- 1 spot. Easy to implement with 20th Century technology such as Excel.
To be clear: IMO the pre-drawn brackets should work reasonably well if seeding gets corrected. It rewards regional champs for winning regionals, and separating regional finalists is a good thing. Occasionally a semis-level match will happen in the quarters, but that should have little impact on the rest of the bracket and seems like a least-bad outcome. BUT again, if seeding gets corrected.
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You made some serious points and I agree a million percent. When wrestlers get seeded lower in districts and regionals than there national ranking, you might have a messed up system.
The higher ups at the PIAA, did they actually wrestle or know anything about the sport? Is there a steering committee or the same old guys sitting around smoking cigars. I guess a better question is do they really care other than how much $$$$ it brings in. This is an issue and very easily fixed.
Seidel and Botero would both be tempted to forfeit. No one cares about regionals. Take second and get the much easier side. On the other hand you win a hard fought regional title to earn a really hard semi with Gill. Sometimes common sense is the only way to go or Ask Pa Natives, Willie Saylor and Jeff Upson to seed the tournament. They sure seem to know the wrestlers more than most.
District One uses something similar the formula you are suggesting (minus H2H which is only used as a tiebreaker)
