Penn State IFC tells Barron to grow up

[manatree]

We know one fraternity chose not to ... do you know if the other 43 social fraternities have chosen not to?

Whatever they have or have not chosen to do doesn't seem to be working. Like I said before,
The Greeks by their very nature have a self created laundry list of rules and regulations that they make their members follow. They have had the ability to self police this for a long time and have done a poor job.

 

[jerseylion109]

Sims is the perfect example of an administrator that says all the right things about open dialogue but then will do everything he can to limit that dialogue. it all sounds good but its empty promises

 

[lyndj]

There are two sides to every story:

Penn State Administrator Damon Sims weighs in on new fraternity rules, future of greek life
Frank Esposito | The Daily Collegian Apr 12, 2017

Sims stressed the importance of open dialogue to solve the issues, however when the March 30 sanctions arrived the IFC as well as the University Park Undergraduate Association initially claimed no one talked to their organizations about the sanctions prior to their release.

Sims chuckled at the notion that he never talked to them.

"Any group who says we never talked to them is kidding themselves," Sims said.

Sims said he included not only the current presidents but past presidents of greek organizations in a meeting where he spoke about the need for change. This remained part of Sims' plan to engage in "ongoing" and nearly "endless" discussion about the moves forward for greek life. The groups involved with the discussions on greek life reached little consensus on many issues.

After one meeting Sims found little in the way of questions asked by the greeks other than how to contact him.

"I asked if they had any questions and most of the guys said nothing, they asked how do we reach you and I gave them my number to keep the conversation going," Sims said.

Eventually members of greek life stopped communicating, which marked the start of the communication break down between members of the greek community and the administration prior to the March 30 sanctions, Sims said.​

Well, isn't he smug.

 

[Art]

I'm pretty sure the IFC had a role in both Pi Kappa Phi and Kappa Delta Rho getting booted off campus in the last couple of years. It plays a significant part in the disciplinary process.

Could and should the IFC have taken a more proactive role in trying to pump the brakes on underage drinking and hard alcohol consumption within the Greek system? Certainly, but keep in mind that Damon Sims was supposedly convening a committee that would formulate and promulgate a plan for all of this.

As indicated in the letter to Barron from the IFC, the University (i.e., Sims) did not solicit any input from the IFC or its constituent members even though the University had ostensibly taken ownership of the whole issue by announcing the formation of this committee.

I can't bash the University without reservation, since it is no simple matter to tackle an issue like underage drinking on college campuses. (Query whether state laws - mandated by the federal government under the threat of withholding federal highway funds - that effectively make universities responsible for policing underage drinking are good public policy.)

But consider how likely the prospect of success is when a new policy intended to combat underage drinking in the Greek Houses is announced with zero input from the very people it is intended to regulate.

Is that IFC's excuse, wait for someone else to do something, although in the case of Damon Dim it's waiting for nobody to do nothing?

 

[Art]

Well, isn't he smug.

Damon Dim, smug? Ever see a smug two-week old? Damon Dim was born smug.

 

[Lion Lineage]

What I see here is something that says exactly the opposite of what you are saying (it says that universities typically have no duty regarding fraternities), and some law student arguing that things should be changes so that this isn't the case anymore.

No, I think the paper is arguing that universities used to be responsible for what happened at a frat, then law shifted and they were deemed to not be responsible, and now based upon some recent rulings the law appears to be shifting back to universities bearing some responsibility sinc they recognize the fraternities.

Bottom line is that if universities can be held liable for what occurs at a frat party, then the universities are going to have to look long and hard at whether opening themselves up to that type of liability is worth it to them - especially if members of said group show no signs of changing the behavior (hazing, underage drinking, binge drinking, etc.) that creates such a liability.

 

[Pardlion]

There are two sides to every story:

Penn State Administrator Damon Sims weighs in on new fraternity rules, future of greek life
Frank Esposito | The Daily Collegian Apr 12, 2017

Sims stressed the importance of open dialogue to solve the issues, however when the March 30 sanctions arrived the IFC as well as the University Park Undergraduate Association initially claimed no one talked to their organizations about the sanctions prior to their release.

Sims chuckled at the notion that he never talked to them.

"Any group who says we never talked to them is kidding themselves," Sims said.

Sims said he included not only the current presidents but past presidents of greek organizations in a meeting where he spoke about the need for change. This remained part of Sims' plan to engage in "ongoing" and nearly "endless" discussion about the moves forward for greek life. The groups involved with the discussions on greek life reached little consensus on many issues.

After one meeting Sims found little in the way of questions asked by the greeks other than how to contact him.

"I asked if they had any questions and most of the guys said nothing, they asked how do we reach you and I gave them my number to keep the conversation going," Sims said.

Eventually members of greek life stopped communicating, which marked the start of the communication break down between members of the greek community and the administration prior to the March 30 sanctions, Sims said.​

Translation: I had a meeting a long time ago, but didn't make any specific recommendations or provide any direction or leadership for further discussion or follow up. When shit hit the fan, I just did whatever I wanted to do.

 

[jerseylion109]

Translation: I had a meeting a long time ago, but didn't make any specific recommendations or provide any direction or leadership for further discussion or follow up. When shit hit the fan, I just did whatever I wanted to do.

Yup and then blamed everybody else. Leadership!

 

[Pardlion]

No, I think the paper is arguing that universities used to be responsible for what happened at a frat, then law shifted and they were deemed to not be responsible, and now based upon some recent rulings the law appears to be shifting back to universities bearing some responsibility sinc they recognize the fraternities.

Bottom line is that if universities can be held liable for what occurs at a frat party, then the universities are going to have to look long and hard at whether opening themselves up to that type of liability is worth it to them - especially if members of said group show no signs of changing the behavior (hazing, underage drinking, binge drinking, etc.) that creates such a liability.

Look here: http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/800/234/1393645/

 

[joeparules]

Whatever they have or have not chosen to do doesn't seem to be working. Like I said before,
The Greeks by their very nature have a self created laundry list of rules and regulations that they make their members follow. They have had the ability to self police this for a long time and have done a poor job.

Maybe they should ban all forms of hazing? Already done. Maybe all incoming freshmen should be educated on the dangers of drugs and alcohol? Already in place.

So exactly how are "the Greeks" supposed to self police all 8,000 members 24/7? Again, this is a terrible tragedy, but I'm not sure which of the new restrictions would have prevented this from happening. Punish the guilty (which is still being determined), not everyone with a remote connection.

 

[Lion Lineage]

No, I think the paper is arguing that universities used to be responsible for what happened at a frat, then law shifted and they were deemed to not be responsible, and now based upon some recent rulings the law appears to be shifting back to universities bearing some responsibility sinc they recognize the fraternities.

Bottom line is that if universities can be held liable for what occurs at a frat party, then the universities are going to have to look long and hard at whether opening themselves up to that type of liability is worth it to them - especially if members of said group show no signs of changing the behavior (hazing, underage drinking, binge drinking, etc.) that creates such a liability.

Universities used to exercise much greater control over all aspects of college life under the legal theory: In loco parentis - In place of the parents. Then that started to go by the way side and now the courts seem to be ruling that, no, universities do in fact act "in place of the parents" - hence the increasing liability.

Another one that explains it pretty straightforwardly:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/philip_lee/files/vol8lee.pdf

 

[demlion]

Why is there an IFC or a Panhellenic council? I can see why there is an Association of Engineering Students, or the like, but what privileges and rights are they negotiating with the University that requires them to have their own union?

 

[demlion]

What part of having a party with alcohol at this frat which was supposed to be dry was not understood? If there was hazing going on what pat of the ban on that was not understood?

 

[jerseylion109]

so punish the fraternity where the violations occur. Why punish an entire system just like the NCAA punished the entire school over the actions of a few.

 

[Lion Lineage]

Universities used to exercise much greater control over all aspects of college life under the legal theory: In loco parentis - In place of the parents. Then that started to go by the way side and now the courts seem to be ruling that, no, universities do in fact act "in place of the parents" - hence the increasing liability.

Another one that explains it pretty straightforwardly:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/philip_lee/files/vol8lee.pdf

Okay, no. The courts in Lehigh and Colgate are saying that the universities weren't legally responsible for the abuse of alcohol that led to an injury in one case and a death in the other. If that's the case the universities don't appear to have much of a legal fear from the behavior of frats leading to the deaths of their students. I'm not sure how they're not responsible. If a bar serves alcohol to someone who is underage, or continues to serve alcohol to someone who is a VIP, they can be held liable. Not sure how it's not the same at events that either the university sponsors - as in Colgate (I think that was the college) or as happened at Lehigh when the party took place on campus.

 

[LafayetteBear]

We know one fraternity chose not to ... do you know if the other 43 social fraternities have chosen not to?

Joeparules: "One fraternity chose not to" comply with rules on alcohol? I think that's a real stretch. The truth is that EVERY PSU fraternity chose not to comply with rules on alcohol, particularly underage drinking.

The night that Tim Piazza suffered those injuries, virtually every PSU fraternity was having its own Bid Acceptance party for new pledges. How many of those parties do you think involved the consumption of alcohol? A similar scenario could, but for the grace of God, have unfolded at ANY of the other PSU fraternity houses.

There is some irony in the fact that, just last year, the PSU chapter of Beta was named the Fraternity of the Year by PSU. Underage drinking is a problem at every campus in the country. So is binge/excessive drinking. The University quite rightly wants to do something about it. The question is what to do, and how to go about it.

 

[PSU_Nut]

so punish the fraternity where the violations occur. Why punish an entire system just like the NCAA punished the entire school over the actions of a few.

The problem is that it not just one fraternity that is causing problems. This is not the first fraternity death at Penn State. This is not the first time a fraternity has been out of control. The purpose is prevention and not punishment. Life instant always fair and sometimes one person ruins things for everyone. For example candles are banned in dorms. Not everyone burnt down a dorm with a candle but they are banned for everyone. There are countless examples of these things.

People love to say Greek organizations is not about partying. If that is true why are these new rules a problem? Shouldn't these men of honor welcome the new rules. Surely they can bond with out alcohol and serve the community.

 

[MtNittany]

A similar scenario could, but for the grace of God, have unfolded at ANY of the other PSU fraternity houses.

So having alcohol (even if against the rules) at a bid party is an immediate risk of death!? Hyperbole much?

 

[Pardlion]

Joeparules: "One fraternity chose not to" comply with rules on alcohol? I think that's a real stretch. The truth is that EVERY PSU fraternity chose not to comply with rules on alcohol, particularly underage drinking.

The night that Tim Piazza suffered those injuries, virtually every PSU fraternity was having its own Bid Acceptance party for new pledges. How many of those parties do you think involved the consumption of alcohol? A similar scenario could, but for the grace of God, have unfolded at ANY of the other PSU fraternity houses.

There is some irony in the fact that, just last year, the PSU chapter of Beta was named the Fraternity of the Year by PSU. Underage drinking is a problem at every campus in the country. So is binge/excessive drinking. The University quite rightly wants to do something about it. The question is what to do, and how to go about it.

Piazza would probably be alive today if: 1) his fraternity wasn't dry, and 2) they were serving beer.

These kids have had to transition to hard alcohol, because the school has cracked down on beer. The next step, as the school cracks down on the vodka, will be drugs ("I'll be in my basement room, with a needle and a spoon and another girl to take my pain away").

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

the fact that there is no official head of greek life at PSU when there is over 8000 students involved but there are 250 assistant athletic directors is part of the problem. Get it together Barron & BOT

We need an associate AD to cover the entire gender spectrum for each sport, SMH...

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

They wouldn't? They allow the other Greeks to have houses. I suggest Bellefonte or Snowshoe. Someplace that has no zoning.

Snowshoe has the Klan and lots of them

 

[PSU_Nut]

Piazza would probably be alive today if: 1) his fraternity wasn't dry, and 2) they were serving beer.

These kids have had to transition to hard alcohol, because the school has cracked down on beer. The next step, as the school cracks down on the vodka, will be drugs ("I'll be in my basement room, with a needle and a spoon and another girl to take my pain away").

Well the house manager was dealing drugs. I guess the school is to blame for him turning to selling drugs. We all know that men of principle would never do such thing. It a shame the university ruined all these outstanding men of principle.

 

[Cletus11]

Two different topics being argued at one time.

1. Why did Barron have to go public with his statement? No reason to in my book, only meant to embarrass the Greek IFC and try to get political/media leverage. College President should not be doing that with students. Should have been kept in house. I think most agree on that.

2. What to do about the Greek System and the recent tragedy? That is the bigger question. No good answer to that.

 

[joeparules]

Joeparules: "One fraternity chose not to" comply with rules on alcohol? I think that's a real stretch. The truth is that EVERY PSU fraternity chose not to comply with rules on alcohol, particularly underage drinking.

The night that Tim Piazza suffered those injuries, virtually every PSU fraternity was having its own Bid Acceptance party for new pledges. How many of those parties do you think involved the consumption of alcohol? A similar scenario could, but for the grace of God, have unfolded at ANY of the other PSU fraternity houses.

There is some irony in the fact that, just last year, the PSU chapter of Beta was named the Fraternity of the Year by PSU. Underage drinking is a problem at every campus in the country. So is binge/excessive drinking. The University quite rightly wants to do something about it. The question is what to do, and how to go about it.

My point wasn't that the other 43 fraternities were drinking milk and singing folk songs, but that one fraternity took it too far while the other 43 were able to act responsible enough. Yet all 44 are being punished. Ban Beta and have open discussions between the university and IFC/Panhellenic to find ways to reduce the risk of another tragedy. They did the first ... not sure why they can't do the latter!?

 

[Pardlion]

Well the house manager was dealing drugs. I guess the school is to blame for him turning to selling drugs. We all know that men of principal would never do such thing. It a shame the university ruined all these outstanding men of principal.

Sure. There are plenty of drugs on campus. And, there will be more when alcohol parties are banned.

No way, no how, will the University stop kids from partying.

 

[PSU_Nut]

My point wasn't that the other 43 fraternities were drinking milk and singing folk songs, but that one fraternity took it too far while the other 43 were able to act responsible enough. Yet all 44 are being punished. Ban Beta and have open discussions between the university and IFC/Panhellenic to find ways to reduce the risk of another tragedy. They did the first ... not sure why they can't do the latter!?

Do you really think all others were acting responsible? This isn't the only fraternity on campus who killed someone. They also aren't the only fraternity causing problems.

 

[LafayetteBear]

So having alcohol (even if against the rules) at a bid party is an immediate risk of death!? Hyperbole much?

Where did I suggest that the mere provision of alcohol poses "an immediate risk of death?" The questions is really the quantum of the risk. It is pretty much a tautology to say that college students drink alcohol. So if alcohol is being drunk on campuses across the country, the demographics suggest that some percentage of those students are going to get drunk.

And although it is (fortunately) a much smaller percentage, some percentage of students imbibing alcohol are going to engage in high risk behavior or injure themselves, perhaps even mortally. This happens several times each year across the nation.

It is a tragedy that Tim Piazza fell and suffered mortal injury. If it prompts the University and the IFC to reexamine their policies and come up with a way to reduce the risk of that happening again, something good will come out of Tim's untimely death. The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that providing alcohol at parties entails some risk, and that Beta was hardly alone in incurring that risk.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Sure. There are plenty of drugs on campus. And, there will be more when alcohol parties are banned.

No way, no how, will the University stop kids from partying.

There is absolutely no correlation of the two. The university has not banned alcohol or even parties. They simply have limited the scope and how the party are managed. You are acting like the kids are going to say I really wanted to drink tonight but now I can't. I might as well smoke some crack. The fact that you are suggesting that frat parties keep kids of drugs is ridiculous.

 

[MtNittany]

YO

Where did I suggest that the mere provision of alcohol poses "an immediate risk of death?" The questions is really the quantum of the risk. It is pretty much a tautology to say that college students drink alcohol. So if alcohol is being drunk on campuses across the country, the demographics suggest that some percentage of those students are going to get drunk.

And although it is (fortunately) a much smaller percentage, some percentage of students imbibing alcohol are going to engage in high risk behavior or injure themselves, perhaps even mortally. This happens several times each year across the nation.

It is a tragedy that Tim Piazza fell and suffered mortal injury. If it prompts the University and the IFC to reexamine their policies and come up with a way to reduce the risk of that happening again, something good will come out of Tim's untimely death. The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that providing alcohol at parties entails some risk, and that Beta was hardly alone in incurring that risk.

You said it was only by the Grace of God that it didn't happen at another Fraternity that night. That same night, probably 20 or so other drunk kids fell down apartment stairs, dorm stairs, rental house stairs, fire escapes, parking deck stairs, etc. Fortunately, they all apparently survived.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Well the house manager was dealing drugs. I guess the school is to blame for him turning to selling drugs. We all know that men of principal would never do such thing. It a shame the university ruined all these outstanding men of principal.

How many of these kids do you know personally? I'm amused to learn that you consider yourself sufficiently informed to pass judgment on whether any of them is or is not a man of principle.

 

[Pardlion]

There is absolutely no correlation of the two. The university has not banned alcohol or even parties. They simply have limited the scope and how the party are managed. You are acting like the kids are going to say I really wanted to drink tonight but now I can't. I might as well smoke some crack. The fact that you are suggesting that frat parties keep kids of drugs is ridiculous.

You got any stats to back that up? Didn't think so. Alcohol is de facto banned right now. Kids gonna party.

 

[Art]

Two different topics being argued at one time.

1. Why did Barron have to go public with his statement? No reason to in my book, only meant to embarrass the Greek IFC and try to get political/media leverage. College President should not be doing that with students. Should have been kept in house. I think most agree on that.

2. What to do about the Greek System and the recent tragedy? That is the bigger question. No good answer to that.

Why did Barron have to go public? That's what college presidents do. Deny him his moment in the sun? Never!

 

[LafayetteBear]

YO

You said it was only by the Grace of God that it didn't happen at another Fraternity that night. That same night, probably 20 or so other drunk kids fell down apartment stairs, dorm stairs, rental house stairs, fire escapes, parking deck stairs, etc. Fortunately, they all apparently survived.

I think you are making my point, and am at a loss to understand why we are debating here. You appear to agree with me that the what happened to Tim Piazza could conceivably have happened at any number of other PSU fraternities. Hence, my use of the term "by the grace of God." And hence, my disagreement with Joeparules.

 

[MtNittany]

I think you are making my point, and am at a loss to understand why we are debating here. You appear to agree with me that the what happened to Tim Piazza could conceivably have happened at any number of other PSU fraternities. Hence, my use of the term "by the grace of God." And hence, my disagreement with Joeparules.

OK...I read it as this is some ticking time bomb ready to go off at any time - which it isn't.

 

[getmyjive11]

We are at the point where the University needs to ask itself whether keeping the frat affiliation is a prudent move. The liability seems to be growing. Underage drinking, drugs, sexual assaults and fights all seem to happen more frequently at the frats, and when a tragedy occurs, PSU gets unnecessarily involved. Outside of THON and some charitable work, I'm not seeing the big benefit to PSU.

 

[Pardlion]

We are at the point where the University needs to ask itself whether keeping the frat affiliation is a prudent move. The liability seems to be growing. Underage drinking, drugs, sexual assaults and fights all seem to happen more frequently at the frats, and when a tragedy occurs, PSU gets unnecessarily involved. Outside of THON and some charitable work, I'm not seeing the big benefit to PSU.

Can we get rid of the softball team and the philosophy department, too?

 

[manatree]

Translation: I had a meeting a long time ago, but didn't make any specific recommendations or provide any direction or leadership for further discussion or follow up. When shit hit the fan, I just did whatever I wanted to do.

Translation: I had a/several meeting(s) with the Greek members within the last three months and those that attended were not responsive.

Also, according to their own public statements, they have had input and were involved in the process.

Penn State Interfraternity Council suspends all social events until further notice
Frank Esposito | The Daily Collegian Feb 8, 2017

The Interfraternity Council, with support from all 46 chapters, announced that all social events will be suspended until further notice, according to a release from Michael Cavallaro, IFC vice president for communications.

The decision to suspend socials came after a Feb. 7 meeting between Damon Sims, vice president for Student Affairs, met with presidents from Penn State's fraternities to discuss future policy changes, according to Lisa Powers, senior director of Penn State's Office of Strategic Communications.​

Interfraternity Council and Panhellenic Council to allow attendance of dry socials
Shelby Kaplan | The Daily Collegian Mar 21, 2017

Since then, a new rule allowing attendance of "dry socials," has been instated."Shortly before spring break, our chapter presidents began expressing a need for a way to still interact while being respectful of IFC's moratorium," Panhellenic Council President Amanda Saper said via email. "If the point of all of this is to change our current culture, then I firmly believe that there needs to be opportunities provided for our members to interact in new and normal ways."​

So back in February, the rules that they publicly supported were to suspend all socials.

In March, the rules that they publicly supported were to allow dry socials.

In April, at least 8 of their Fraternities and Sororities were caught breaking the rules that they all publicly supported with one IFC leader sending an email to other fraternity leaders detailing ways of getting around the restrictions

Please tell me, what am I missing?

I happen to be one of the few non-students that live in the Fraternity district. I have lived there for almost 20 years. Other than the abrupt halt to the parties that were in progress the Saturday after Timothy Piazza's death, I have seen no visible change in the activity in the Fraternities surrounding my place. There were still parties every weekend and the recycling bins were overflowing every Monday.

The Greek system has had the bottom up structure to enact changes by themselves for years.

 

[PSU_Nut]

You got any stats to back that up? Didn't think so. Alcohol is de facto banned right now. Kids gonna party.

How is it de facto banned? They can still have parties with alcohol, they can still have alcohol in the houses, they can still go to parties with alcohol that are non fraternity parties. There is nothing stopping a kid from drinking if they want to at Penn State

 

[Pardlion]

How is it de facto banned? They can still have parties with alcohol, they can still have alcohol in the houses, they can still go to parties with alcohol that are non fraternity parties. There is nothing stopping a kid from drinking if they want to at Penn State

I was just there last weekend. All houses are dry. There are deans sneaking around at night looking in windows. I believe that this is supposed to be the case for the rest of the semester, but the administration has changed the rules so many times in the last three weeks that no one knows what exactly is going on.

 

[getmyjive11]

Can we get rid of the softball team and the philosophy department, too?

They aren't exactly causing problems at the University.