I rarely agree with you, but you are spot on here.
Upside benefit, minimal. Downside risk, huge.
Penn State IFC tells Barron to grow up
- Thread starter jerseylion109
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I rarely agree with you, but you are spot on here.
Upside benefit, minimal. Downside risk, huge.
I'd answer that question for you (since it is quite a lot), but your statement concerning your residence tells me that it would be a waste of time.
Dem-
I can buy your original premise, but you are sliding. You started with a blanket statement that no student groups should get special treatment including being able to chose who is allowed to live in their area. Now you are calling out football as OK because it brings positives to the university. Sounds like a football centric culture problem, where you are calling out greeks. This is especially true of sororities as they both have no other option, and let's be honest. I am not recalling any women dying in Ewing hall. They have even less issues than athletes where we have seen some issues.
Your bias is showing
Just saying the University gets something from tootball, and despite asking here I have nothing from any of you to tell me what they get from Greek Life. Tellingly, the one guy who tried to answer told me what the STUDENTS get, but not what the University gets.
If our football team was known for binge drinking and sexual assault, I would like to think we would shut it down, too.
You can say that a floor of jazz musicians or nuke engineering majors is the same as a frat, bit it is not.
This is a longstanding problem for many years from frats. Why should the U risk civil liability from them when it is getting nothing?
If our football team was known for binge drinking and sexual assault, I would like to think we would shut it down, too.
You can say that a floor of jazz musicians or nuke engineering majors is the same as a frat, bit it is not.
This is a longstanding problem for many years from frats. Why should the U risk civil liability from them when it is getting nothing?
a lot of students when choosing colleges look for schools with strong greek communities. I know this may come as a shock to you but to many prospective students it means something to belong to a club and community that makes a school of 40,000+ more manageable. So i was say yes, that helps the school with admissions and interest
This is absolutely true. Not sure why Demlion is oblivious to this, although I will say that he frequently allows himself to be led by his biases.
What percentage of students at Penn State are in either fraternities or sororities, and how many are in frats?
I think I read the whole greek number is about 8,000. Not sure if that is just UP or the whole shootin' match. Perhaps we should rely upon our unbiased posters to provide figures.
Hey, it only took a day to answer the question. Not bad for a group that has it own org to deal with the University.
So are there any statistics to back that up? Or are you just going with your instincts here? If it is the latter, isn't that kind of like leading with your biases? lol.
So you guys think then that if PSU suddenly said, no connection between the U and these orgs, IFC and Panhellenic disbanded today, that applications would nosedive? Is this truly a belief you hold?
Seems to me that the only time I was concerned about making this "school of 40,000+ more manageable," was also the only time I was ineligible to join a frat, that is, when I was a first semester freshman.
But surely the IFC publishes surveys that would address this, right?
As of 2014 Academic Year:
7,000 in Frat/Sor out of approx 41,000 undergrads at UP.
Pretty much evenly split among Frat and Sor.
So about 17%. Given that freshman can't yet be included in those numbers, the actual % of those who are, or will be, "Greek" probably 20% - somewhere in that ballpark
A clear minority of the student body, but not an insignificant minority.
Since you apparently disbelieve that Greek life is a factor that kids use in selecting colleges (contrary to college guides that specifically list this information), how about you come up with some statistics that show this factor to be irrelevant. As for attendance plummeting, yes, anyone who has a strong inclination towards a Greek-oriented social life would likely go elsewhere, since there are many other options. PSU would be left with the wienies.
Good thing there's no bias here. Look, regardless of the lack of evidence for your theory regarding what Greek does for the University, it is not my argument. It is yours, regarding why the University should not just be done with the whole mess. If you are asking me to disprove your argument, you are kind of missing the way argument goes in the history of Western thought. You go first when it is your argument. Put up your proof.
If you are saying you have nothing to support your argument, okay. But you seem to be unwilling to actually say it.
The rate of alcohol related deaths and sexual assaults is actually a real thing. It is being cited by the opponents of University association with fraternities to argue that the U ought to be done with them.
You seem really unfamiliar with the whole college selection process. I guess you don't interact with high school kids too much, because if you did, you would know that Greek life is a frequent consideration (just pick up any college selection guide), and that many kids actually choose campuses based in part on the availability of Greek life. I'm not interested in spending time to "prove" this to you with the "statistics" you are looking for, because it's as obvious as the nose on your face. You are the one who suggests that Greek life is useless and irrelevant, so you back up your claims--that's actually how arguments work for those who like to win them.
The last time I got into an argument with you was about the Freddie Gray case. How'd that work out for ya?
That includes service and academic, correct? The problems seem to lie with the social frats and the parties where they consistently serve alcohol to underage students, haze, encourage binge drinking, etc. Or does this occur at service frats as well? Have any idea how many are in social frats/sororities? I'm thinking Penn State could clamp down on social frats while keeping the service and academic ones.
Well I have sent two former highschoolers to college. I have been volunteering with highschoolers headed to college for the last 8 years.
One daughter joined a Greek org, the other didn't. Neither used the affiliation with the University as her basis for choosing a school to attend. The Greek orgs could be there, without being affiliated with the University. None of their friends chose their college that way. I did not say Greek life is useless nor irrelevant...I said the University does not get enough out of it to justify taking legal liability when they do the same stupid shit over and over.
Freddie Gray is still dead regardless. I have noticed that here in PA we have some jury verdicts that do not accord with our idea of justice. Glad you think that does not happen in Maryland, but you're wrong.
Finally! An answer which addresses the question! So I guess the University has to address whether pulling its recognition from Greek life will harm that very worthwhile charity.
punishing groups instead of individuals is something that should never be allowed
THON would survive without Greek life. There are many groups who participate that are outside of Greek life. I think I read that organizations outside of Greeks raise more money now then Greeks.
Talk about bias....
I'd rather PSU be without the frats, such as Delta Chi (goes into college heights and steals decorations from homes to decorate their parties, uses THON money to buy booze & blunts), et al. PSU would be just fine without frats.
This has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. So the University should not be allowed to set any rules or guidelines for students? These are not punishments, they are operating rules that they must follow. No one is forcing them to follow the rules because no one is forcing to be a member of a fraternity. If they don't like the rules, then don't join a fraternity that is recognized by the university. If you fraternity doesn't want to follow the rules then don't be part of the IFC.
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Is there any reason the Greek orgs. can't exist independent of college/university recognition? Why can't their national chapters just go it alone as private businesses that operate independent of higher education? They can still have houses, still admit only college students, restrict it to either male or female students, etc.
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You mean "go it alone" like the Skeller thought they were within their rights to do back in the Case Race days?
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So you have changed your premise to just Greek letter organizations should not have privileges because Greeks are bad actors. The stats for sororities are very different yet you consider them the same. Can you explain why?
I agree. In 20 years, universities will be wondering 'why did it take us so long to divorce ourselves from these organizations?'
Beta was having a social with Trilogy(an unsanctioned sorority and what is left after T
From the comment section of Philly.com.
- When you say 'off campus', you mean the Borough of State College. University recognition is required to maintain the non-conforming zoning use the chapter houses in the neighborhood have. Add to that the fact that all rental housing here requires rental permits, and those come with a whole set of regs and ordinances. Plus, being a municipality (not campus) as it is, there are laws and ordinances that apply to everyone here - not rules, laws. Somehow that part keeps getting left out of this discussion, but it shouldn't be
That was set up by your fellow Greekers. And you who tried to dilute the thing even further by bringing in interest houses. May not be any reason to include any of them except the frats, since that is where the recurrent problem is.
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Even if it was, Old Main would just pressure the local turds into changing the zoning.
I don't pretend to have any answers to this apparent problem, but what strikes me is the level of contempt there seems to be between the people who support Fraternities and Sororities and those that do not. BJF gave numbers on the % of the student population who are part of the Greek system currently. When I was at PSU the number was higher as there was a smaller overall enrollment with more Fraternities and Sororities. There was always some friction between those in apartments and those in Fraternities and Sororities, but it seems much more bitter now. Maybe it is simply due to the anonymity a message board gives. Has something happened to widen the rift between the two groups over the years? Too bad that two groups of Penn State students can't get along better. Or is this more an issue with the alumni than with the students?
Just a reminder that the Greek system is a major driving factor in the success of Thon.
I am not sure what the answer to the issue is. But I fail to see why shutting down the Greek system would prevent any of this from happening. It would simply shift the place of occurrence from a fraternity to a rental house or apartment.
To think that shutting down the Greek system would do anything to curb drinking or drinking related injuries or deaths is silly.
I am not sure what the answer to the issue is. But I fail to see why shutting down the Greek system would prevent any of this from happening. It would simply shift the place of occurrence from a fraternity to a rental house or apartment.
To think that shutting down the Greek system would do anything to curb drinking or drinking related injuries or deaths is silly.
I think Penn State's issue is simply liability and their inability to control their exposure in the Greek system.
If a student dies from eating contaminated food in the dining halls, fine, Penn State's responsible -- but they can control their exposure by exercising best practices in the kitches. Same with sports teams -- Penn State can instill good practices that keep people from suffering unnecessary harm during sports events and recreational activity.
But off campus fraternities are this strange beast. PSU has no real control over what happens in off-campus frats, but PSU, because it has a formal relationship with the Greek system, will inevitably be the target of lawsuits if students die or are injured (or assaulted) in alcohol related incidents. PSU is on the hook for millions of dollars every time a kid dies at a fraternity party -- which, as we have seen, happens every couple of years.
You have bereaved parents go in front of a jury and talk about their son taken from them at age 18, no jury with a heart is going to send them away empty handed. They will go away with a trunk full of money and the money will come from the deepest pockets among he defendants -- and that is PSU.
So I think PSU is going to have to try and figure out how to extricate itself legally from the Greek system. And the Fraternies (and, I guess, sororities) are going to have to figure out how to exist with no formal legal ties to the university.
Maybe they will have to be reconstituted as private apartment houses with greek letters on them. And they will have to buy their own liability insurance.
Given what Penn State has had to spend on settlements the last few years, PSU is understandably sick of it and wants to curtail liability. And then another fraternity brother dies in an alcohol related incident......
If a student dies from eating contaminated food in the dining halls, fine, Penn State's responsible -- but they can control their exposure by exercising best practices in the kitches. Same with sports teams -- Penn State can instill good practices that keep people from suffering unnecessary harm during sports events and recreational activity.
But off campus fraternities are this strange beast. PSU has no real control over what happens in off-campus frats, but PSU, because it has a formal relationship with the Greek system, will inevitably be the target of lawsuits if students die or are injured (or assaulted) in alcohol related incidents. PSU is on the hook for millions of dollars every time a kid dies at a fraternity party -- which, as we have seen, happens every couple of years.
You have bereaved parents go in front of a jury and talk about their son taken from them at age 18, no jury with a heart is going to send them away empty handed. They will go away with a trunk full of money and the money will come from the deepest pockets among he defendants -- and that is PSU.
So I think PSU is going to have to try and figure out how to extricate itself legally from the Greek system. And the Fraternies (and, I guess, sororities) are going to have to figure out how to exist with no formal legal ties to the university.
Maybe they will have to be reconstituted as private apartment houses with greek letters on them. And they will have to buy their own liability insurance.
Given what Penn State has had to spend on settlements the last few years, PSU is understandably sick of it and wants to curtail liability. And then another fraternity brother dies in an alcohol related incident......
I work in the industry and can say this: It's a very complicated issue that many universities are dealing with, and unfortunately there are no easy answers.
On one hand, you have the fact that many, many alumni of Greek-heavy schools very closely connect their experiences with their houses to their experiences at the university. To them, it was a fundamental part of their college years, and in truth their loyalty to the school is in large part based on their loyalty to their houses. Which makes sense, as the house provided the very basis of their entire social life at the school. There is a lot of good in the system, including the commitment to service, etc., and universities are wary to act too harshly against the system because of fear of backlash from some of their most engaged alums. I think even critics of Greek life would admit that, for those who are part of it, it can really be a great thing.
On the other hand, the stats are what they are: the houses do generally seem to have higher instances of problem behavior -- dangerous drinking, sexual assault, hazing -- than can be found elsewhere. And that's why universities don't have any choice but to act.
I don't think anyone would honestly suggest that the drinking isn't a problem across the entire Penn State student population -- it clearly is -- and while you can do everything you can to educate kids about problem drinking, the reality is that they are adults and they are going to make their own decisions. As institutions you can only hope that when a kid really is in trouble, his/her friends will step up and make sure they get the medical care they need. Again, that goes to education and communication between the schools and the students, with the institution making clear that everyone's safety -- not "busting" parties or citing kids -- is the top priority. Trust has to be established for it to work.
But let's put drinking along to the side for a moment. Drinking is going to happen, we all know that. It's just a matter of managing it as best as possible and keep the kids as safe as possible.
The issue that I think really puts a target on the Greek system is hazing. And that's precisely because hazing and drinking is an awful combination that leads to terrible circumstances. Whatever the reasons why hazing continues to linger, whatever traditions are part of every chapter's history, etc. -- I think the time has come to wake up and realize that it's got to end, or more kids are going to end up sick, injured or dead. It's a very simple equation--a bunch of drunk brothers (still young adults, prone to dumb decisions) hazing a bunch of younger kids who may or may not know their limit, in a culture where binge drinking and hazing is just accepted, is a serious problem, and an entirely unnecessary one.
I don't think there's a chance of the Greek system ever going away at Penn State. It's too entrenched. But the system needs to wake up and really embrace fundamental change, or the pressure on them will simply never go away. Alumni need to back the changes. Parents do, too.
On one hand, you have the fact that many, many alumni of Greek-heavy schools very closely connect their experiences with their houses to their experiences at the university. To them, it was a fundamental part of their college years, and in truth their loyalty to the school is in large part based on their loyalty to their houses. Which makes sense, as the house provided the very basis of their entire social life at the school. There is a lot of good in the system, including the commitment to service, etc., and universities are wary to act too harshly against the system because of fear of backlash from some of their most engaged alums. I think even critics of Greek life would admit that, for those who are part of it, it can really be a great thing.
On the other hand, the stats are what they are: the houses do generally seem to have higher instances of problem behavior -- dangerous drinking, sexual assault, hazing -- than can be found elsewhere. And that's why universities don't have any choice but to act.
I don't think anyone would honestly suggest that the drinking isn't a problem across the entire Penn State student population -- it clearly is -- and while you can do everything you can to educate kids about problem drinking, the reality is that they are adults and they are going to make their own decisions. As institutions you can only hope that when a kid really is in trouble, his/her friends will step up and make sure they get the medical care they need. Again, that goes to education and communication between the schools and the students, with the institution making clear that everyone's safety -- not "busting" parties or citing kids -- is the top priority. Trust has to be established for it to work.
But let's put drinking along to the side for a moment. Drinking is going to happen, we all know that. It's just a matter of managing it as best as possible and keep the kids as safe as possible.
The issue that I think really puts a target on the Greek system is hazing. And that's precisely because hazing and drinking is an awful combination that leads to terrible circumstances. Whatever the reasons why hazing continues to linger, whatever traditions are part of every chapter's history, etc. -- I think the time has come to wake up and realize that it's got to end, or more kids are going to end up sick, injured or dead. It's a very simple equation--a bunch of drunk brothers (still young adults, prone to dumb decisions) hazing a bunch of younger kids who may or may not know their limit, in a culture where binge drinking and hazing is just accepted, is a serious problem, and an entirely unnecessary one.
I don't think there's a chance of the Greek system ever going away at Penn State. It's too entrenched. But the system needs to wake up and really embrace fundamental change, or the pressure on them will simply never go away. Alumni need to back the changes. Parents do, too.
Dem: How about money? Money talks, as they say. Check with any U.S. campus, and the percentage of Greeks who donate to their alma mater is higher than the percentage of non-Greeks who donate to their alma mater.
