Your first sentence in the "Frats" section is not accurate. Some frats are not only inhabited by students but also by the head trainer of the football program.
Carry on.
Penn State IFC tells Barron to grow up
- Thread starter jerseylion109
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Your first sentence in the "Frats" section is not accurate. Some frats are not only inhabited by students but also by the head trainer of the football program.
Carry on.
It does. Hell, I DID IT. I just don't recall needing the advice of frats and sororities to deal with it.
Neither did 43 of the 44 social fraternities at PSU. So why are they being dragged into this problem? If a kid ODs in his dorm room should all students in the dorms be reprimanded and have restrictions placed upon them?
Look this was a terrible, terrible tragedy and I can't even imagine being Tim's parent, but this is yet another poor reaction to an unfortunate event by Penn State "leadership". Punish the guilty and not everyone with some kind of association that had no control over it. Sound familiar?
It different because the apartment complexes are not recognized by the university and as part of their charter must follow rules by set by the university. I don't understand why people have such trouble grasping that concept.
So why are they being dragged into this problem?
Ahhh! Well, that would be because they voluntarily joined a Council to work out whatever it is they work out with the University. They figured I guess that there was some benefit to be had from banding together. I guess if I were running one of the "innocent" frats, I'd say, "either they're out, or we are.
Ahhh! Well, that would be because they voluntarily joined a Council to work out whatever it is they work out with the University. They figured I guess that there was some benefit to be had from banding together. I guess if I were running one of the "innocent" frats, I'd say, "either they're out, or we are.
That because they need to be recognized by the university in order to retain their charter from the national organization. So without being recognized by the university they would cease to exist.
Interesting Dem. So you are advocating eliminating interest houses and different athletic housing as well?
Students can for sure get loans to cover off campus housing costs.
The issue here is that we have a university-created housing shortage that is feeding a massive housing industry (controlled in part by the university's own trustees) adjacent to the university (not talking about Boalsburg, I'm talking about State College). The university is well-aware of this, and is making an intentional decision to outsource its housing, and thereby shift all associated risks to others. I'm okay with this, but let's recognize that Fraternities are serving exactly the same function. I'm not at all persuaded that "recognition" by the university of individual fraternity chapters is in any way meaningful. I also don't think that liability for fraternity misdeeds should be shifted back to the university, unless the university has done something affirmative to cause the liability.
I think his quote was"You want to join a club, join, but we are not offering you any deal that others don't get. Like being able, (if they are) to pick who lives on your dorm floor and shut other folks out."
This would apply to many groups, including athletics.
If history has taught us anything, it appears that merely punishing the guilty parties, such as was done with the KDR Facebook scandal and the death of Joe Dado in 2009 (remember him?) has not worked.
The Greeks already have a bottom up government/enforcement structure in place. If they are able to control who is invited to join, who is allowed to attend their functions, how they shake hands and whether or not their pledges are allowed to use elevators or not, they have the ability to control their alcohol and sexual assault issues. they have just chosen not to.
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So you think good leadership is sitting back and doing nothing? You don't think it is reasonable put some rules in place? If a dead kid is not good enough reason to place restriction what is?
Also, I've yet to see the football team or the soccer team try to drag others into their problems. And, anyone who lives in the dorms answers to a RA, right?
The town's zoning laws would never allow them a house in town, so where are you suggesting they go?
They wouldn't? They allow the other Greeks to have houses. I suggest Bellefonte or Snowshoe. Someplace that has no zoning.
Okay, so I think there is some confusion between what makes a university liable and what it's actions should be to reduce that liability, and a more philosophical question like: What are the university's moral and ethical responsibilities to its student body?
Your point about there not being enough campus housing is fair, but that has nothing to do with whether social frats are becoming a legal liability for the university because of their behavior - serving alcohol to underage students, creating an environment that encourages binge drinking, etc.
When students are in organizations officially recognized by the university, their actions can become a liability for the university. The thinking is something like this: If a university recognizes your group's existence it - by that very recognition (think blessing) - is responsible for what happens within these groups.
You can read just the first three pages to get the gist of this line of thinking:
http://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1246&context=jchlp
So frats can't have it both ways. If the university is liable for their actions then the university should have 24/7 access to the frats and also be able to supervise every event that takes place at a frat. Apparently frats cannot exist without recognition from the university due to some inane national chapter regulations, so if that's the case the frats can't say: The university should recognize us -making them a potential liability - but then also say: Stay out of our business b/c we live off campus in private housing. For example, the university laid down new regulations for serving alcohol at frats, and immediately the frats began violating the new rules. That can't happen.
Never thought about it. Is it because that would make it easier for frat boys to find them and commit sexual assaults? Look, if they want to be in a group, that is no problem. Why do they need their own special tie to the University?
And I am guessing that at PSU, if the football team started having parties where members of the team die, and other students die, maybe the rules would get harsher for them, too./ How many times have they said "no hazing?"
We know what the upside for PSU is from the FB team. What is the upside from the IFC?
For the average sorority/fraternity member it could mean lifelong friendships and professional networking. What exactly is the football team doing for them?
I have lifelong friendships and professional networking, and I got it myself. BTW, that would work just as well without the University affiliation, if they felt they needed to be in some selective group. BTW, I asked what the IFC does for the University. You told me what it does for the students. The University is going to end up paying somehow. What do they get for their money?
I'm pretty sure the IFC had a role in both Pi Kappa Phi and Kappa Delta Rho getting booted off campus in the last couple of years. It plays a significant part in the disciplinary process.
Could and should the IFC have taken a more proactive role in trying to pump the brakes on underage drinking and hard alcohol consumption within the Greek system? Certainly, but keep in mind that Damon Sims was supposedly convening a committee that would formulate and promulgate a plan for all of this.
As indicated in the letter to Barron from the IFC, the University (i.e., Sims) did not solicit any input from the IFC or its constituent members even though the University had ostensibly taken ownership of the whole issue by announcing the formation of this committee.
I can't bash the University without reservation, since it is no simple matter to tackle an issue like underage drinking on college campuses. (Query whether state laws - mandated by the federal government under the threat of withholding federal highway funds - that effectively make universities responsible for policing underage drinking are good public policy.)
But consider how likely the prospect of success is when a new policy intended to combat underage drinking in the Greek Houses is announced with zero input from the very people it is intended to regulate.
That is no longer the case with several national fraternities. The concessions that some Universities have demanded as the price of recognition have a number of Chapters, and some National Fraternities, either questioning or abandoning the notion of recognition, and instead relying on their First Amendment "free association" rights.
What I see here is something that says exactly the opposite of what you are saying (it says that universities typically have no duty regarding fraternities), and some law student arguing that things should be changes so that this isn't the case anymore.
Good leadership would be to sit down with IFC/Panhellenic and mutually construct a course of action to reduce the chance of a repeat occurrence of this tragedy (nothing will eliminate the risk short of eliminating Greek life). Poor leadership is thinking you are the smartest person in the room and know what is best for everyone (see OGBOTs). Poor leadership is also an open letter in the media or asking someone to call you at 10:00 pm to tell them they are fired. Who knows, maybe IFC/Panhellenic has some good ideas on this topic?!
We know one fraternity chose not to ... do you know if the other 43 social fraternities have chosen not to?
There are two sides to every story:
Penn State Administrator Damon Sims weighs in on new fraternity rules, future of greek life
Frank Esposito | The Daily Collegian Apr 12, 2017
Sims stressed the importance of open dialogue to solve the issues, however when the March 30 sanctions arrived the IFC as well as the University Park Undergraduate Association initially claimed no one talked to their organizations about the sanctions prior to their release.
Sims chuckled at the notion that he never talked to them.
"Any group who says we never talked to them is kidding themselves," Sims said.
Sims said he included not only the current presidents but past presidents of greek organizations in a meeting where he spoke about the need for change. This remained part of Sims' plan to engage in "ongoing" and nearly "endless" discussion about the moves forward for greek life. The groups involved with the discussions on greek life reached little consensus on many issues.
After one meeting Sims found little in the way of questions asked by the greeks other than how to contact him.
"I asked if they had any questions and most of the guys said nothing, they asked how do we reach you and I gave them my number to keep the conversation going," Sims said.
Eventually members of greek life stopped communicating, which marked the start of the communication break down between members of the greek community and the administration prior to the March 30 sanctions, Sims said.
Sims chuckled at the notion that he never talked to them.
"Any group who says we never talked to them is kidding themselves," Sims said.
Sims said he included not only the current presidents but past presidents of greek organizations in a meeting where he spoke about the need for change. This remained part of Sims' plan to engage in "ongoing" and nearly "endless" discussion about the moves forward for greek life. The groups involved with the discussions on greek life reached little consensus on many issues.
After one meeting Sims found little in the way of questions asked by the greeks other than how to contact him.
"I asked if they had any questions and most of the guys said nothing, they asked how do we reach you and I gave them my number to keep the conversation going," Sims said.
Eventually members of greek life stopped communicating, which marked the start of the communication break down between members of the greek community and the administration prior to the March 30 sanctions, Sims said.
Absolutely love this letter. While I, unlike many here, think that Barron tries to do the right thing sometimes, he was off-base in how he handled responding to the media on this. Sims was even worse. The IFC did what these two leaders should have done.
