pet peeve on football rules

[Obliviax]

I don't get the reasoning on this rule.

At one point, Kent got a first down and, after the play, a kent blocker started pushing and shoving that resulted in an unsportsmanlike penalty. So they mark off 15 yards and it is first and ten kent, but instead of from the 50, it was from the 35 (or something like that).

Had it been a gain of 2 on first down, the penalty would have made it second and 23. This is a far worse penalty because it puts the team behind the chains.

Why the different ruling?

Shouldn't the penalty take them to first and 25 and not first and 10 from the same place on the field? I get that the penalty was after the play so there is no loss of down. But why doesn't the penalty count against the distance to a first down like every other penalty?

 

[Art]

I don't get the reasoning on this rule.

At one point, Kent got a first down and, after the play, a kent blocker started pushing and shoving that resulted in an unsportsmanlike penalty. So they mark off 15 yards and it is first and ten kent, but instead of from the 50, it was from the 35 (or something like that).

Had it been a gain of 2 on first down, the penalty would have made it second and 23. This is a far worse penalty because it puts the team behind the chains.

Why the different ruling?

Shouldn't the penalty take them to first and 25 and not first and 10 from the same place on the field? I get that the penalty was after the play so there is no loss of down. But why doesn't the penalty count against the distance to a first down like every other penalty?

Because it's a dead ball foul which occurred after the play. The play sets the down and yardage to go.

 

[Mister Magoo]

Because it's a dead ball foul which occurred after the play. The play sets the down and yardage to go.

There was an odd play in a high school game I was at on Friday. Team went for it on 4th down. Had to measure to see if first down. Made it by inches. Then, a 15 yarder was marked off against the team that was on defense because the penalty was after the tackle. Had they been short of the first down, the team that stopped them would have still gotten the ball. But, would have started 15 yards back. Even though they committed the personal foul.

 

[Art]

There was an odd play in a high school game I was at on Friday. Team went for it on 4th down. Had to measure to see if first down. Made it by inches. Then, a 15 yarder was marked off against the team that was on defense because the penalty was after the tackle. Had they been short of the first down, the team that stopped them would have still gotten the ball. But, would have started 15 yards back. Even though they committed the personal foul.

Not odd at all. The result of the play was that the ball went over to the other team on downs. The mark off of the dead ball foul simply put it back 15 yards.

 

[Obliviax]

Because it's a dead ball foul which occurred after the play. The play sets the down and yardage to go.

But as soon as the player gained the first down, the down was set to first and ten. So moving the ball back 15, the next play should be at 1st and 25. Just the same as if the play netted 2 yards on first down, then the penalty, result should be 2nd and 23.

 

[sluggo72]

But as soon as the player gained the first down, the down was set to first and ten. So moving the ball back 15, the next play should be at 1st and 25. Just the same as if the play netted 2 yards on first down, then the penalty, result should be 2nd and 23.

those are the old 'screw the offense' rules. People, at every level, want offense, so at most levels, they have eliminated 'screw the offense' rules, or 1st and 25 are hard to find, and that's why the rule is administrated that way.

 

[Art]

But as soon as the player gained the first down, the down was set to first and ten. So moving the ball back 15, the next play should be at 1st and 25. Just the same as if the play netted 2 yards on first down, then the penalty, result should be 2nd and 23.

The dead ball foul is considered incidental to the play. So if the result of a play is first and ten, it remains first and ten after the penalty is walked off. If the result of a play is second (or third or fourth) and yards to go, you can't exactly move the sticks back.

 

[Obliviax]

The dead ball foul is considered incidental to the play. So if the result of a play is first and ten, it remains first and ten after the penalty is walked off. If the result of a play is second (or third or fourth) and yards to go, you can't exactly move the sticks back.

Thanks...but it is inconsistent. At that time, it is first and ten just like, at that time in the second scenario, it is 2nd and 8. So if it is incidental, should be 1st and 25.

I get what you are saying, Art, and I appreciate it. However, it is not consistent with the notion that it is incidental to the play. It is, in fact, preferential, when it happened after a first down was achieved.

 

[Roar More]

Another is a five yard defensive penalty inside the defense's five. Happened against Kent on Saturday. What's the harm if you jump offside on third and goal from the two? Maybe change so any defensive penalty inside the five results in a first down.

 

[CDLionFL]

There was a time years ago when that exact situation would have been 1st and 25. They had to have changed the rule somewhat recently (in the last 10-15 years?). I was still half-expecting it to be 1st and 25 after they announced that penalty and Timmy B was explaining it. I agree with you, Obli, that if a major penalty is committed like that, it should also hurt them in the chains game.

 

[tboyer]

It's a good question. They get the 1st down, and before the next play they commit a 15 yard infraction. They lose 15 yards of field position but they don't lose the 1st and 10. The logic is the team earned the first down on the previous play so they don't take that away, only the 15 yards of field position.

The problem is, this logic doesn't apply to a defensive penalty. Say you stop somone on 3rd and 7 and then commit a dead ball personal foul, you lose 15 yards AND the offense gets a 1st down. If you wanted to use the same dead ball logic, you'd award 15 yards of field position to the offense but the down and distance would stay 4th and 7.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

But as soon as the player gained the first down, the down was set to first and ten. So moving the ball back 15, the next play should be at 1st and 25. Just the same as if the play netted 2 yards on first down, then the penalty, result should be 2nd and 23.

No you can not start any new set of downs other than first and 10 and by start, that means the ready for play has to be given. So as soon as he gains the line ...there is actually nothing set. Once it is .... then everything is off. Know the rules or dont bitch ... or become an official.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

It's a good question. They get the 1st down, and before the next play they commit a 15 yard infraction. They lose 15 yards of field position but they don't lose the 1st and 10. The logic is the team earned the first down on the previous play so they don't take that away, only the 15 yards of field position.

The problem is, this logic doesn't apply to a defensive penalty. Say you stop somone on 3rd and 7 and then commit a dead ball personal foul, you lose 15 yards AND the offense gets a 1st down. If you wanted to use the same dead ball logic, you'd award 15 yards of field position to the offense but the down and distance would stay 4th and 7.

No your logic is flawed because the rules are you have 4 down to obtain the line to gain In any matter once the ready for play is given for first down. The whistle is what determines everything. If the white hat blows it in and you walking back to the huddle as an offensive player and punch the CB you start 1st and 25.

The 15 yards on the defense gives them a line to gain.

Now if you want to argue automatic first down and NFHS-NCAA/NFL current rulings... then ok but flawed logic isnt correct logic.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Another is a five yard defensive penalty inside the defense's five. Happened against Kent on Saturday. What's the harm if you jump offside on third and goal from the two? Maybe change so any defensive penalty inside the five results in a first down.

Well then you have flip the rule for the offense. If the false start from their own two it's a safety

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

those are the old 'screw the offense' rules. People, at every level, want offense, so at most levels, they have eliminated 'screw the offense' rules, or 1st and 25 are hard to find, and that's why the rule is administrated that way.

They are actually impossible to find in this scenario.

 

[Roar More]

Well then you have flip the rule for the offense. If the false start from their own two it's a safety

Why do you "have to" flip the rule?

 

[Obliviax]

No you can not start any new set of downs other than first and 10 and by start, that means the ready for play has to be given. So as soon as he gains the line ...there is actually nothing set. Once it is .... then everything is off. Know the rules or dont bitch ... or become an official.

I didn't say it was against the rules I said it is a dumb rule. Btw officials suck.

the point is that this penalty is half the penalty if it happens after a first down as opposed after. A penalty is a penalty two ways: a) lost field position and b) yardage against gaining a first down. In this case, the first remains true but there is no penalty in gaining a first down. As such, this penalty on first down is different than a penalty on 2nd or 3rd down.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Why do you "have to" flip the rule?

You just complained that the defense isnt penalized enough for jumping offsides when the ball is inside their 5 yard line. That is should be an automatic first down. Which is laughable notion. Because if the offense false starts they move back a full five yards.

Well if the offense has the ball inside the five on their own 1 yard line and they false start they only move a half yard, but the defense if they jump on hard count they get penalized a full five yards.

If you are going to make it an automatic first down the penalty on the defense the opposite side has to be just as severe. Which would be a safety or a loss of down on the offense when they have the ball and are backed up.

 

[Madsol]

Thanks...but it is inconsistent. At that time, it is first and ten just like, at that time in the second scenario, it is 2nd and 8. So if it is incidental, should be 1st and 25.

I get what you are saying, Art, and I appreciate it. However, it is not consistent with the notion that it is incidental to the play. It is, in fact, preferential, when it happened after a first down was achieved.

Boy, I don't get what Art is saying at all. And I agree with you. If it's 1st and 10 and they get 2 yards and then have a dead ball 15 yard penalty, it's now 2nd and 23. So why does the 15 yard penalty following the team gaining a 1st and 10 not result in the same penalty? Agree with you that it makes no sense.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

I didn't say it was against the rules I said it is a dumb rule. Btw officials suck.

the point is that this penalty is half the penalty if it happens after a first down as opposed after. A penalty is a penalty two ways: a) lost field position and b) yardage against gaining a first down. In this case, the first remains true but there is no penalty in gaining a first down. As such, this penalty on first down is different than a penalty on 2nd or 3rd down.

Not it's not half the penalty. The penalty is 15 yards. The team is penalized is 15 yards. Penalties are also C loss of downs...D ejections. E time run offs. Or did Mr. knowitall forget those? The penalty did not happen on first down. The penalty happened "post" during a time when the clock is stopped and the "official" chains are not even set. So at that very moment there is no line to gain established.

Become an official submit a rule change form . Be part of the process like Obama dreamed of. #change

You said in your first post you didnt get the reasoning and why the two different rulings.

You asked I answered.

 

[MJG-90]

I don’t like the “half the distance to the goal line” penalties at either end. Go the lesser of full distance or to the one yard line.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

I don’t like the “half the distance to the goal line” penalties at either end. Go the lesser of full distance or to the one yard line.

Here is a guy with at least a clue that thinks.
Good idea. What about the ball on the one yard line? No penalty?

 

[Madsol]

I don’t like the “half the distance to the goal line” penalties at either end. Go the lesser of full distance or to the one yard line.

I like that idea. I'd even settle for the 2. A roughing the passer personal foul at the 18 shouldn't only result in the ball moving to the 9.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

I like that idea. I'd even settle for the 2. A roughing the passer personal foul at the 18 shouldn't only result in the ball moving to the 9.

So what about offensive holding at the offenses 6 yard line?

 

[Madsol]

So what about offensive holding at the offenses 6 yard line?

It would go back to the 2 instead of the 3.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Boy, I don't get what Art is saying at all. And I agree with you. If it's 1st and 10 and they get 2 yards and then have a dead ball 15 yard penalty, it's now 2nd and 23. So why does the 15 yard penalty following the team gaining a 1st and 10 not result in the same penalty? Agree with you that it makes no sense.

Art is wrong on his reasoning of incidental to that play and in 15 years have never seen that on a test or in a meeting on either the college level or NFHS. That has nothing to do with a dead ball foul. A dead ball foul is also incidental to the play...(duh it's dead ball) on 2nd 3rd and 4th down.

 

[Obliviax]

Not it's not half the penalty. The penalty is 15 yards. The team is penalized is 15 yards. Penalties are also C loss of downs...D ejections. E time run offs. Or did Mr. knowitall forget those? The penalty did not happen on first down. The penalty happened "post" during a time when the clock is stopped and the "official" chains are not even set. So at that very moment there is no line to gain established.

Become an official submit a rule change form . Be part of the process like Obama dreamed of. #change

sorry.....wrong, wrong and wrong:

• the penalty happened after the play, got it. But the chains are not set in either case, when the penalty occurred. The ball was not set and the down market is not set. So consistency would insist on treating them the same.
• Since when is action on the field of play subservient to the officials ability to set the ball? The play determines the ball location and has nothing to do with some guy with a poll being able to get into position. I can understand a kickoff or punt, but not during the game progression.
• If that is the case, why doesn't the same rule apply for illegal substitution, false start or any other penalty that happens before the ball is snapped? If the RB moves before the ball is snapped, and the clock stopped, it end up being 1-15. Or, if it was 2nd and 7, becomes 2nd and 13.
• The clock has nothing to do with a penalty. It is a penalty or it is not.
• It is half a penalty to NOT make them go 1st and 25. If it happened on second down, the offending team would have two problems: lost field position and fewer downs. With that stupid rule, you only have one problem; the lost field position.
• As a result, the damage on the penalty is worse if it is after a first down was gained but not on subsequent downs.

 

[NittPicker]

Incidental to the play is they key part. Say a runner gets a first down and the play is subsequently blown dead. Then two seconds after the tackle an offensive player drills his assigned defender in the back near the site of the tackle. The result would be a personal foul against the offense but still a first and ten since the foul was incidental to the action on the field. The same would be true if an offensive player was blocking twenty yards away from the ball and gave a cheap shot to a defender after the whistle.

OTOH, say a runner gets a first down, all the action incidental to the play is finished and all players have disengaged and stopped competing. Then an offensive player walks up behind a defense player and gives him a hard shove in the back resulting in a personal foul. In that case it would be 1st and 25. If I'm incorrect about this I'm sure one of you will point it out.

It's ultimately up to the officials to determine when action incidental to the play has ceased,

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

It would go back to the 2 instead of the 3.

So roughing the passer gets a full 15 but your grand idea for holding moves 4 yards. Back to the two. What about at the nine yard line. Still the two? What about at the 11. To the two? In your world does the ball go back to the one.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

sorry.....wrong, wrong and wrong:

• the penalty happened after the play, got it. But the chains are not set in either case, when the penalty occurred. The ball was not set and the down market is not set. So consistency would insist on treating them the same.
• Since when is action on the field of play subservient to the officials ability to set the ball? The play determines the ball location and has nothing to do with some guy with a poll being able to get into position. I can understand a kickoff or punt, but not during the game progression.
• If that is the case, why doesn't the same rule apply for illegal substitution, false start or any other penalty that happens before the ball is snapped? If the RB moves before the ball is snapped, and the clock stopped, it end up being 1-15. Or, if it was 2nd and 7, becomes 2nd and 13.
• The clock has nothing to do with a penalty. It is a penalty or it is not.
• It is half a penalty to NOT make them go 1st and 25. If it happened on second down, the offending team would have two problems: lost field position and fewer downs. With that stupid rule, you only have one problem; the lost field position.
• As a result, the damage on the penalty is worse if it is after a first down was gained but not on subsequent downs.

The chains are not set in either case? After the whistle blows for the ready for play they are set.

A on 4th down that comes up short. A dead ball o the defense . It's the same the chains are in fact not set yet

 

[Obliviax]

Incidental to the play is they key part. Say a runner gets a first down and the play is subsequently blown dead. Then two seconds after the tackle an offensive player drills a defender in the back. The result would be a personal foul against the offense but still a first and ten since the foul was incidental to the action on the field. The same would be true if an offensive player was blocking twenty yards away from the ball and gave a cheap shot to a defender after the whistle.

OTOH, say a runner gets a first down, all the action incidental to the play is finished and all players have disengaged and stopped competing. Then an offensive player walks up behind a defense player and gives him a hard shove in the back resulting in a personal foul. In that case it would be 1st and 25. If I'm incorrect about this I'm sure one of you will point it out.

It's ultimately up to the officials to determine when action incidental to the play has ceased,

yeah...but if that same play happens after second down, the penalty is worse.

• Example 1: Roughing after a first down gained at the 50 yard line. Offense has a first and ten, at their 35.
• Example 2: Roughing happens after a first down gain of 2 yards. Offense has a second and 23 at their 35.

Which is worse: first and ten at the 35 or second and 23 at the 35?

 

[Madsol]

So roughing the passer gets a full 15 but your grand idea for holding moves 4 yards. Back to the two. What about at the nine yard line. Still the two? What about at the 11. To the two? In your world does the ball go back to the one.

Wow, now I see why I have you on ignore. You're an ass. Bite me.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

It's ultimately up to the officials to determine when action incidental to the play has ceased,

Stop using the word Incidental. It has nothing to do with it. The only thing that matters is the ready for play. That whistle is basically the hand of god. Dead ball fouls are all Incidental to the play. Because they dead ball fouls. It's not up to the officials to decide. The whistle decides when the way is over. Did blow yea. Dead ball. Did it not ... live ball

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Wow, now I see why I have you on ignore. You're an ass. Bite me.

You came up with rule while I guess taking a shit that makes absolutely no sense. How can you not punish the offense the same way. You obviously didnt think of every situation. Which of you are going to create a rule has to think or we get terrible ****ing rules the kick off time run off rule.

 

[Obliviax]

Stop using the word Incidental. It has nothing to do with it. The only thing that matters is the ready for play. That whistle is basically the hand of god. Dead ball fouls are all Incidental to the play. Because they dead ball fouls. It's not up to the officials to decide. The whistle decides when the way is over. Did blow yea. Dead ball. Did it not ... live ball

Again, what if it happened on second down right after a player made two yards and ran OOB. They are still not "ready for play". The down marker hasn't been set and the ball has not been placed. Yet, the offense is penalized by distance to gain a first down but if it was first down, no penalty in regard to distance to first down.

 

[NittPicker]

yeah...but if that same play happens after second down, the penalty is worse.

• Example 1: Roughing after a first down gained at the 50 yard line. Offense has a first and ten, at their 35.
• Example 2: Roughing happens after a first down gain of 2 yards. Offense has a second and 23 at their 35.

Which is worse: first and ten at the 35 or second and 23 at the 35?

No disagreement here. No doubt the rules have quirks which seem to defy logic. Too bad we can't go back in time and ask the people who made the rules what the reasoning was.

It reminds me of the rule which awards a touchback to the defense if the offense fumbles the ball through the defensive end zone. It's a remnant of an arcane rule in which ANY unsuccessful offensive play into the end zone resulted in a touchback. For example, an incomplete forward pass into the defensive end zone resulted in a touchback for the defense. It seems dumb today but back then that's just how it was. The rules are what they are.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

yeah...but if that same play happens after second down, the penalty is worse.

• Example 1: Roughing after a first down gained at the 50 yard line. Offense has a first and ten, at their 35.
• Example 2: Roughing happens after a first down gain of 2 yards. Offense

Again, what if it happened on second down right after a player made two yards and ran OOB. They are still not "ready for play". The down marker hasn't been set and the ball has not been placed. Yet, the offense is penalized by distance to gain a first down but if it was first down, no penalty in regard to distance to first down.

By the way I m mot arguing that 2nd down and 23 is not worse. Its infinite worst.

The first ready for play is the golden moment for first down. That sets the 10 yards to gain. Anything that happens post this whistle till football crossing the line or not obtaining those 10 yards starts now.

I get not liking bc even if a 4th down stop if a defensive player punches someone. He is on the field as defense. Very easy make the case. Offense should keep the ball.

 

[NittPicker]

Stop using the word Incidental. It has nothing to do with it. The only thing that matters is the ready for play. That whistle is basically the hand of god. Dead ball fouls are all Incidental to the play. Because they dead ball fouls. It's not up to the officials to decide. The whistle decides when the way is over. Did blow yea. Dead ball. Did it not ... live ball

It's not my goal to get into a sematics argument. Call it incidental. Call it a continuation of the play. Call it anything you want. When players disengage and are no longer competing then the 1st and 25 would come into play. It's up to the officials to determine when that happens.

 

[Obliviax]

You came up with rule while I guess taking a shit that makes absolutely no sense. How can you not punish the offense the same way. You obviously didnt think of every situation. Which of you are going to create a rule has to think or we get terrible ****ing rules the kick off time run off rule.

Dude...
I understand what you are saying. I understand the rule.

I am saying it is ridiculous that an offense gets penalized much less if it happens after the first down is gained versus subsequent plays. It is an easy fix...make it a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the ball after the play. IMHO, the official doesn't spot the ball, the player does. The official only recognizes that spot. So as soon as the play is concluded, the spot is made regardless of the official. In my two scenarios, it would be 1st and 25 or 2nd and 23.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

It reminds me of the rule which awards a touchback to the defense if the offense fumbles the ball through the defensive end zone. It's a remnant of an arcane rule in which ANY unsuccessful offensive play into the end zone resulted in a touchback. For example, an incomplete forward pass into the defensive end zone resulted in a touchback for the defense. It seems dumb today but back then that's just how it was. The rules are what they are.

I love the touchback rule. If you think about from a defensive side ...it truly is the ultimate reward in the game for a great defensive play. And at the same time the ultimate punishment for the offense not playing with smarts to live another day.

Love it and first through a plate glass door all in one.

If it is ever changed I hope they go a fumble through the offensive end zone goes to the defense at the previous position of the snap. For an opportunity at minimum 3 points with max of 8.

We are bitching about first down 15 yards and yada yada yada ..Peoples head would be exploding.