Proposed Changes after watching the tournament

[nitlion6]

Just curious after reading 117 posts...is college wrestling really in need of major rule changes? Current rules apply to all, so the playing field is level, imo.

Tweaking to add excitement as the sport tries to grow seems reasonable to me. Change for change sake is insanity, and modifying rules where no problem exists is a waste.

I love the sport. I do not follow the thought process that says we need 10 point offensive takedowns and only 3 points for a defensive takedown or anything along those lines.

I would like to see championship weigh-ins at nationals happen sometime after consolation and placement matches.

There are also situations that I would like to see designated as stalling, since they are stalling.
Just several examples, continuously retreating without attacking. The White kid against Joesph should have been DQed.
Neutral wrestling and as they begin to pass each other's ankles back and forth, if one discontinues to attempt to improve stall him. If they both stop stalemate it. If a continuation is going to put a kid in jeopardy PD it.
Anytime a top or bottom wrestler discontinues to attempt to improve position stall him.

Riding hips is not improving. Riding with legs and not digging to work towards a fall is stalling. Being ridden with legs and tucking arms, and placing belly and head on mat is bottom stalling.


Just a few things that drive me nuts.

 

[JBott]

True, but you can't have an IV without a bandage, right? Where were the bandages or the tape jobs covering the bandages? If no bandages, wouldn't there likely be somebody bleeding (other than Meredith and Snyder from the forehead)?

No bandages necessary! A bit of pressure when you first take out the needle and then a band aid for a bit.

 

[Afw6006]

Exactly. Or don't engage in unsafe practices. I went down 30 pounds from my football weight for wrestling my senior year of high school and made it a point to stay at least 3 pounds under during wrestling season. I never ate after weigh-ins and didn't have to worry about drinking water because I wasn't dehydrating. It can be done.

You don't need to be cutting large amounts of weight like that for it to affect you. You could be cutting 10 pounds for the season and you still aren't really drinking or eating up until the point of your weigh in. Get up and go run a 5k tomorrow morning without eating breakfast or hydrating and tell me you don't think you would have fared better if you had at least an hour to get some fuel in you first

 

[Agoodnap]

The proposal isn't practical, though not for the reason you listed.

In duals, the ref conducts weigh-ins by weight class. If a wrestler doesn't make weight, they get to step off, step back on, and are weighed again. They are limited to 3 attempts. Once all the wrestlers at that weight for both teams have been weighed in, then the weight class is closed, so if a wrestler missed weight they are out. That's why wrestlers will check their weight an hour or more before the weigh-in, and work out if they are over or just at the weight.

In tournaments, it's pretty much the same general process, with a minor tweak. They typically use multiple scales to move the process along. Weigh-ins are done by weight class. If a wrestler does not make weight on their initial weigh-in, then after all other wrestlers at that weight class have weighed in, that wrestler gets one attempt to qualify at each other scale used in the process. After these additional attempts are concluded, for all wrestlers that did not make weight on their 1st attempt, then that weight class is closed.

You could still do this...but, the final weigh-in is right at the mat. Meet the weight and wrestle or don't meet the weight and your coach has small amount of time to find a sub. Simple. I'm a solution guy.

 

[Agoodnap]

You don't need to be cutting large amounts of weight like that for it to affect you. You could be cutting 10 pounds for the season and you still aren't really drinking or eating up until the point of your weigh in. Get up and go run a 5k tomorrow morning without eating breakfast or hydrating and tell me you don't think you would have fared better if you had at least an hour to get some fuel in you first

In this case you describe that wrestler should be wrestling at a higher weight. If you show up dehydrated you're probably going to lose, so you really need to weigh-in hydrated, it's as simple as that.

 

[Agoodnap]

Wouldn’t that mean that they would cut weight right up until the match? How is that better?

Because stepping on the mat dehydrated would mean they'd lose virtually every match, so they'd have to stop that practice.

 

[johnstownsteel]

I’d like to see the wrestlers put back on their feet after 30 seconds or if there’s a turn after backs are awarded and the top guy gets a riding time point. With this, there is no stalling on either wrestler. If the bottom guy wants to turtle up or lay there then so be it....youre settling on giving the other man a point. If the top guy wants to hang on to ankles or legs and just wants to maintain control for one point then fine. It’s probably a dumb idea but I’m sick of hearing Iowa fans screaming stalling the entire match.

 

[El-Jefe]

Wouldn’t that mean that they would cut weight right up until the match? How is that better?

Joe used to say the best way to prevent head injuries was to remove the face mask.

Of course that will never happen, but the same principle applies to 1-hr weigh-ins -- incentives matter. Behaviors change when costs exceed benefits.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Joe used to say the best way to prevent head injuries was to remove the face mask.

Of course that will never happen, but the same principle applies to 1-hr weigh-ins -- incentives matter. Behaviors change when costs exceed benefits.

I agree with the face mask, but actually think removing the helmet totally is the answer...

 

[amattaro]

When guy on bottom gets out and is holding a single leg while his opponent is hopping on one leg and riding time is still rolling against him....they gotta figure that one out. A conditional escape and stop the riding time, then change the 1 to 2 if he secures the reversal (takedown).

 

[NoVa Lion]

Disagree. First, I should have said "hop" not "leap". Guy gets a single leg and they are both moving all over the mat. They get close to edge and defensive wrestler works his way out of bounds. Lurches out of bounds pulling offensive guy with him. Tug of war. It's wrestling, yes, but it is also a means to escape the takedown. Saw it many times at NCAAs. Do splits, etc.

That is already stalling by rule. See actual language below. The refs just don't call it all the time.

Art. 8. Stalling by Kicking Out of Bounds. A wrestler kicks out of a lower leg hold and this kick out requires the referee to make an out of bounds call.

 

[psualt]

Honestly with all the talk about weigh ins and perceived weight differences it makes me wonder why PSU fans are concerned. Come March, the only time it is beneficial is in the finals. I’m glad the other teams have some top guys starving themselves. For every Zahid there are multiple Dean Heils who are just glad the season is over.

 

[LorenzoFan]

When guy on bottom gets out and is holding a single leg while his opponent is hopping on one leg and riding time is still rolling against him....they gotta figure that one out. A conditional escape and stop the riding time, then change the 1 to 2 if he secures the reversal (takedown).

And if the the true escape or a reversal is not earned, what then do you do with riding time? Start it back? Table workers would have a hel of a time with that.

 

[dunkej01]

another thing that annoys me is when a guy is going for the escape but goes back in for a reversal. Control has been lost by the top man but the RT clock keeps ticking simply because the E was not awarded. then they go OB or a stalemate happens and the ref awards the E, yet the clock kept running right up to the whistle.

its on the bottom man to get clear, I get that, but if you escaped at the whistle you had to have escaped before, right?

 

[Cowbell Man]

another thing that annoys me is when a guy is going for the escape but goes back in for a reversal. Control has been lost by the top man but the RT clock keeps ticking simply because the E was not awarded. then they go OB or a stalemate happens and the ref awards the E, yet the clock kept running right up to the whistle.

its on the bottom man to get clear, I get that, but if you escaped at the whistle you had to have escaped before, right?

The short answer is yes. However, while action is live the ref is making sure the action proves to be a reversal. Without complete disengagement they can’t award 1 escape and immediate 2 takedown since they never were in the neutral position.

When action stops OOB then the official Escape can be awarded.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Joe used to say the best way to prevent head injuries was to remove the face mask.

Of course that will never happen, but the same principle applies to 1-hr weigh-ins -- incentives matter. Behaviors change when costs exceed benefits.

I agree with the face mask, but actually think removing the helmet totally is the answer...

If the rules changed, the behaviors would as well. The hydration choices would change. Simple fact.

But we will still complain that the other guy is bigger. Lol.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

Honestly with all the talk about weigh ins and perceived weight differences it makes me wonder why PSU fans are concerned. Come March, the only time it is beneficial is in the finals. I’m glad the other teams have some top guys starving themselves. For every Zahid there are multiple Dean Heils who are just glad the season is over.

but one of those guys beat our guy, so we have to change the rules lol

 

[nerfstate]

The short answer is yes. However, while action is live the ref is making sure the action proves to be a reversal. Without complete disengagement they can’t award 1 escape and immediate 2 takedown since they never were in the neutral position.

When action stops OOB then the official Escape can be awarded.

It seems like this could be solved by some sort of "Stop the clock" signal that awards no points. I know the refs and table have a lot to keep track of, but this one seems solvable to me.

 

[RoarLions1]

If the rules changed, the behaviors would as well. The hydration choices would change. Simple fact.

But we will still complain that the other guy is bigger. Lol.

Ha Cowbell!! You nailed my thoughts about rule changes in general with those 10 or so words.

 

[Doctori]

I agree, but they should have wrestled right then...

Agreed!!!

 

[dunkej01]

The short answer is yes. However, while action is live the ref is making sure the action proves to be a reversal. Without complete disengagement they can’t award 1 escape and immediate 2 takedown since they never were in the neutral position.

When action stops OOB then the official Escape can be awarded.

right. my point is the clean break is silly, but I guess it is a necessary evil. similar to the catch and release TDs that happen when going for bonus. I guess my way adds more subjectiveness to referees that maybe shouldnt be given additional leeway to think.

 

[StopYellingStalling]

I'm not really sure where this entire weigh in issue is even coming from. Did one of the ten second place wrestlers coach complain after their loss that they had a disadvantage? I can guarantee Mark Hall didn't come off the mat and say hey coach, I lost because he ate more after the weigh in. Who do you think the healthier wrestler is in a situation like nationals? The wrestler who is able to go to bed with food in his stomach or the one that has to wake up an hour earlier the next morning to do wind sprints in the hallway dressed in sweats. If you saw a picture of Zahid at weigh ins vs Zahid at match time, do you think you could really tell a difference?

Appearance alone is so difficult in these situations. I stood next to Cenzo after a PSU match and he might be around mid five feet tall, then in Cleveland I rode the elevator with Wick after his medal round who was probably at least 6'1". My friend even made the comment at how Wick makes 165. The biggest difference I can really tell by looks alone is that Cenzo is packing more concrete and rebar in his hips and legs than it took to build rec hall.

 

[CentexLion]

I don't doubt that. But I'm still asking: who were the guys getting IVs on Saturday to gain weight? How long did they have to be under the drip to gain that much weight? Where were the bandages, tape jobs, and blood?

Lots of leg braces and bandages. Get the IV in the quad and cover it up with a brace.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Lots of leg braces and bandages. Get the IV in the quad and cover it up with a brace.

typical IV saline is given at 250ml/hour (approximately 8 oz). For fast rehydration, double that. A pound an hour. Not going to make that big of a difference.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I like wrestlers having to operate from all three positions, I don't like choice as Nato did with Spencer at Big10s avoiding getting ridden out like in the dual, he never had to operate of bottom. No wrestler should be able to avoid their weakest position. 1 point for out if bounds would stop the endless retreating late in the match and where stalling should be but isnt called. I want more weigh ins close to the match with only a slight hydration allowance maybe 2 lbs, too many kids losing to much weight which in the end kind of cheats the system. Enforce hands to the face more like freestyle, although Zain lives off of hands to the Head, what he had to put up with this year as a retaliatory tactic was a bit rediculous and out of hand (Rutgers). And lastly on upheld challenges they need to go back to the point where the continuation of action was interrupted or ceased. The thought of a brick in Bo's match challenging Miles getting back points and if upheld it would have been 4-0 Miles is absurd. If tOSU had challenges and the brick came out before the fall it's possible that is how it could have played out. Many many examples of some pretty dynamic wrestling and valuable points scored immediately following a challenge event where the reversal of a call would have had no effect on the action and flow of events, why take that away.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

Lots of leg braces and bandages. Get the IV in the quad and cover it up with a brace.

Speaking of leg braces & bandages & elbow wraps, etc.
I guess with the 'matside' weigh-ins, a guy would have to run out & get weighed in, then go back and meet the trainer to get 'taped up', then head back from the locker room to the mat. Then start wrestling.
I'm sure the opponent [and fans] will be patient.

 

[seeyajohn]

The short answer is yes. However, while action is live the ref is making sure the action proves to be a reversal. Without complete disengagement they can’t award 1 escape and immediate 2 takedown since they never were in the neutral position.

When action stops OOB then the official Escape can be awarded.

But the rule could be changed to allow the riding time clock to be stopped as soon as the top wrestler loses control with the escape/reversal call coming later.

 

[psufutbolman]

Backing up in a circular fashion is still backing up. Currently they only enforce stalling if you blatantly back straight up and sometimes not even then. Some of these guys put on a mile or two, backing up in a circular fashion.

Wrestling could be the most exciting sport in the world if both contestants were required to come reasonably close to the same level of “initiating” action and “taking risks”. I could show you clip after clip of guys balling up/flattening out to avoid being turned with no attempt to improve their position, or waiting over and over for their opponent to shoot so they can work counters. On top, a guy riding for the sake of riding never attempting to work for near fall.
The rules are written to prevent this already so technically this wouldn’t be a rule change. What is required is changing the culture (acceptable norms) which isn’t impossible but would take tremendous effort and a leader with a great deal of influence

 

[amattaro]

Some of these guys put on a mile or two, backing up in a circular fashion.

We’ll call it “Pletchering”.

 

[Notsofastmyfriend21]

I like wrestlers having to operate from all three positions, I don't like choice as Nato did with Spencer at Big10s avoiding getting ridden out like in the dual, he never had to operate of bottom. No wrestler should be able to avoid their weakest position. 1 point for out if bounds would stop the endless retreating late in the match and where stalling should be but isnt called. I want more weigh ins close to the match with only a slight hydration allowance maybe 2 lbs, too many kids losing to much weight which in the end kind of cheats the system. Enforce hands to the face more like freestyle, although Zain lives off of hands to the Head, what he had to put up with this year as a retaliatory tactic was a bit rediculous and out of hand (Rutgers). And lastly on upheld challenges they need to go back to the point where the continuation of action was interrupted or ceased. The thought of a brick in Bo's match challenging Miles getting back points and if upheld it would have been 4-0 Miles is absurd. If tOSU had challenges and the brick came out before the fall it's possible that is how it could have played out. Many many examples of some pretty dynamic wrestling and valuable points scored immediately following a challenge event where the reversal of a call would have had no effect on the action and flow of events, why take that away.

I said this also on my friend Tom Ellings' facebook page: I would love to see a return to mandatory "take bottom" one period, then the other man mandatory "take top" for the third, or vice versa depending on the first decision. No more defer, no more option to take neutral. One man takes top? That man takes bottom in the third, and vice versa. Just my thoughts.

 

[Agoodnap]

This seems like a good place to drop this tweet. This is just wrong.

 

[nerfstate]

This seems like a good place to drop this tweet. This is just wrong.

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I'm sorry, but 20lbs in an hour? Can the body absorb water that fast, even with an IV? Is he trolling?

 

[Dogwelder]

I'm sorry, but 20lbs in an hour? Can the body absorb water that fast, even with an IV? Is he trolling?

He’s either trolling, or he’s Trisolaran.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I think J’den can sweat out 20 lbs of water in a 7 minute bout, or however long a FS bout its.