You are exactly right, lose late, get penalized, unless your Mich/Harbaugh. ESPN is salivating over a rematch
Regarding the snub, the truth of the matter is...
- Thread starter lionlurker
- Start date
First I don't but y the flukey win theory. You win, you win. PSU beat OSU- period. OSU beat Michigan- period. Michigan beat PSU- period.
Second, comparing how a team did one week versus a team, with how another team played another week is a very innacurate comparison. Games, situations, and conditions, are always different. So it doesn't matter if OSU beat Michigan while Michigan beat PSU, or if OSU beat MSU by 1 and PSU beat MSU by double digits- unless you consider the specific game, the situation, and the conditions.
Third, while Conference Championships mean a lot in terms of who gets the trophy for conference champion, it means little in establishing if you are establishing the best team because of the degree of unbalanced schedules in college football.
Fourth, who is playing the best at the end of the season matters but doesn't negate the rest of the season. And if you are evaluating who is playing the best at the end of the season, it also matters how fare you go back. If you go back 2 games OSU had two very close games, one games but one was against the 3rd ranked team in the playoff poll. If you go back 4 games OSU had two 62-3 victories- one against Nebraska, and a win over the #3 ranked team in the nation. Comparatively PSU gave up 31 to Indiana in a 2 TD victory, soundly beat Rutgers, sound win over a MSU, and say a victory over #7 Wisconsin. Both are strong finishes and which is better is in the eye of the beholder.
Finally, because of the unbalanced schedule, who you played and who you beat does matter. For example, I think the teams OSU played in the conference this year in #3 Michigan, losing a close one to PSU, beating Wisconsin and Nebraska, in the division crossover games, trumps the conference schedule OSU played last year. So although with identical 11-1 overall records and a belief that last year's Buckeyes were better than this year's, If OSU had last year's schedule this season, I don't think they would or even should be in the argument.
If you look at the Big 10 alone, OSU, Michigan, and the Conference Championship Game winner all have legitimate claims, but none have the decisive number of claims. So it does end up being subjective.
For me personally I can see why OSU would have a slot in the playoffs, but I could understand why not. Same goes for PSU, and on Monday I thought Michigan should be out, but as the week has progressed I can see how if Colorado beats Washington they might have an argument.
Second, comparing how a team did one week versus a team, with how another team played another week is a very innacurate comparison. Games, situations, and conditions, are always different. So it doesn't matter if OSU beat Michigan while Michigan beat PSU, or if OSU beat MSU by 1 and PSU beat MSU by double digits- unless you consider the specific game, the situation, and the conditions.
Third, while Conference Championships mean a lot in terms of who gets the trophy for conference champion, it means little in establishing if you are establishing the best team because of the degree of unbalanced schedules in college football.
Fourth, who is playing the best at the end of the season matters but doesn't negate the rest of the season. And if you are evaluating who is playing the best at the end of the season, it also matters how fare you go back. If you go back 2 games OSU had two very close games, one games but one was against the 3rd ranked team in the playoff poll. If you go back 4 games OSU had two 62-3 victories- one against Nebraska, and a win over the #3 ranked team in the nation. Comparatively PSU gave up 31 to Indiana in a 2 TD victory, soundly beat Rutgers, sound win over a MSU, and say a victory over #7 Wisconsin. Both are strong finishes and which is better is in the eye of the beholder.
Finally, because of the unbalanced schedule, who you played and who you beat does matter. For example, I think the teams OSU played in the conference this year in #3 Michigan, losing a close one to PSU, beating Wisconsin and Nebraska, in the division crossover games, trumps the conference schedule OSU played last year. So although with identical 11-1 overall records and a belief that last year's Buckeyes were better than this year's, If OSU had last year's schedule this season, I don't think they would or even should be in the argument.
If you look at the Big 10 alone, OSU, Michigan, and the Conference Championship Game winner all have legitimate claims, but none have the decisive number of claims. So it does end up being subjective.
For me personally I can see why OSU would have a slot in the playoffs, but I could understand why not. Same goes for PSU, and on Monday I thought Michigan should be out, but as the week has progressed I can see how if Colorado beats Washington they might have an argument.
When did you become the moderator? Trying being here longer that 12 weeks before you act like you own the place...
OSU has already beaten Wisconsin. So PSU beating Wisconsin doesn't give us a edge in strength of schedule, but it only pulls us even with regard to BIG opponents. Our OOC schedule is weaker because OSU beat Oklahoma and PSU didn't beat Pitt.
You get lost on the way to the Buckeye Fan-Boy Board?
WTF are the asshole Buckeye Boys doing swarming onto this board today?
Why don't these "shizholians"
go play "turd in the hot tub" on the board of whomever they are playing this weekend?Or go jerk themselves off on their own board?
Shizholians
Originally, the NCAA allowed championship game only for conferences of 12 teams. However, that gave those conferences an advantage as it gave an extra game, which added to strength of schedule and it occurred after all other conferences had concluded play, so conference champions could make a case to move up in rankings when no else could. This pushed more conferences to 12 teams in expansion. The NCAA playoffs came after conference championships, so they weren't created to facilitate selection of playoff teams although the largely have done so. The conference wants them for the money and to prevent other conferences from having an advantage.
Agree to disagree, at least with the first part. Florida is not the best nor the most deserving team to be SEC Champions based on 12 games played this season, but they will be if they win tomorrow. They'll get to raise the trophy and hang the banners and tell their grandkids...but Alabama is both the best team in the SEC and the most deserving team to win the title. And, they're going to be the team that's in the playoffs, regardless of the outcome of the SEC Title game. Deservedly so.
Wild card teams can win the Super Bowl, and they don't get in over division winners because that's the system the NFL set up. College football, as we stand today, has 4 spots. If you're a fan of the sport, you shouldn't want a thoroughly mediocre Florida team taking one of those spots from a better AND more deserving team because they happened to win the right game.
I posted that the champion did all they needed to do to win the conference championship and if Bama loses then they didn't do all they needed to do. And it's not just the system the NFL set up, it's the system everybody has set up except college football. Because of that, a conference championship is real and a national championship is mythical, just like it always has been. Until they go to something that at least resembles a playoff system, the NC is just the winner of a popularity contest.
This. Michigan gets respect for things they did months ago, blind eye turned to what they've done in the last month. Anyone doubt that Bama or Clemson would destroy UM? I'm confident we beat them now, in Indy, home or away.
I agree that they would have done what they needed to do to win the conference championship and be labeled as conference champions. That doesn't mean they're the best or most deserving team though.
And no, all PRO sports set it up that way. College sports all have ridiculous made for TV events to crown their champions. Basketball does the same thing with it's conference tournaments. Most conferences in soccer play conference tournaments. Same with baseball.
ETA: I realize that with soccer and baseball it's not necessarily "made for TV events", but now with conference networks they do get that additional programing. And they have the same result of potentially invalidating the full conference season because one team gets hot for a couple days at the end.
Money grab for the owners and a chance for fringe players to earn a roster spot. But preseason NFL football has absolutely nothing to do with regular season nonconference college football, so let's get back to the point at hand.
Penn State and Ohio State both finished with identical 8-1 records in conference play. There was very little differentiation between the teams, but Penn State beat Ohio State head to head, so they win the tiebreaker and get a shot at Wisconsin for the B1G title. That makes perfect sense.
The thing is, conference games only comprise 75% of the season. And it's in the other 25% that Ohio State distinguished themselves from Penn State. PSU beat Kent State and Temple, tOSU beat Bowling Green and Tulsa. Yawn.
But their marquee matchups were the difference. Penn State lost to Pitt, who is barely in the Top 25. Ohio State traveled to Norman and beat the hell out of Oklahoma on their own field. That right there is the reason Ohio State is almost guaranteed a playoff bid while Penn State needs to hope for one or two upsets. It's not because of JS and it's not because Penn State is the "step child" of the Big Ten.
The B1G doesn't care about non-conference games when deciding division tiebreakers unless you get to about #6 or so on the list. So Ohio State got no benefit for beating Oklahoma and Penn State was not penalized for losing to Pitt when it came time to decide the division winner. If non-conference games mattered then Penn State wouldn't be playing tomorrow.
But the CFP committee looks at all 12/13 games and they will take those games into consideration. If Penn State's overall resume was equal to Ohio State's overall resume then head-to-head would be a valid tiebreaker. But that's not the case. Ohio State has a better overall record against a stonger overall schedule. Head-to-head isn't a valid tiebreaker there because there is no tie to break.
The teams are not playing the same OOC schedules. For instance, Pitt has two wins against Top 10 teams and Temple won the AAC East Division and is playing in the AAC Championship Game, yet you want to claim that daO$U has played a more difficult OOC schedule because they beat Oklahoma who hasn't beaten anybody and has zero wins against Top 10 competition??? You can compare PSU's and daO$U's record in the B1G as the teams will have played 7 common opponents including themselves after PSU plays Wisconsin this weekend.
Pitt has two wins over Top 10 teams, while Oklahoma has ZERO and Oklahoma was blown out by Houston who is in the AAC, didn't win their Division (Navy did) and isn't playing in the AAC CCG, while Temple - who PSU beat - is playing in the AAC CCG.
Oklahoma is a joke ranked in the Top 10 - they have beat nobody....there best win is WVU whose 9 wins are against a group of pathetic competition (including I-AA YSU) none of whom are even sniffing being ranked!
And what do the conference tournament winners get in NCAA basketball? Oh yeah, that's right, they get to go to the big tournament for a chance at the national championship. Sounds like a little more than a made for TV event.
Conveniently you think the factors that you perceive to be in ohio states favor are the most important.... got it!
Ok, if non-conference games are going to carry that much weight, the NCAA should require at least one of them be played toward the end of the season so the committee has a more accurate picture of how good the teams are after they've grown and developed over the course of the season. Many teams that start off strong falter and vice versa. Do you really think Pitt would beat Penn State right now? The way the committee is talking right now, its way more important how good you were in September than how good you are right now. Why don't they just put OSU and Bama in the playoff at the beginning of the year and let everyone else fight for the other two spots? They might as well because apparently it doesn't do any good to beat them and win the conference.
No, I'm saying that non-conference amounts to 25% of the season while you guys want to pretend the non-conference games didn't happen and keep all the focus on the conference games.
It would have been enough if they hadn't lost to Pitt. It doesn't matter if Penn State would hypothetically beat Pitt if they played now because they didn't best them when they actually played them. You can't make that claim any more than Ohio State fans could claim they would beat Penn State if they played a rematch at The Horseshoe.
I look at Penn State 2016 as being very similar to Stanford 2015. Both teams lost an early season nonconference game to a good-but-not-great team. Both teams rebounded to finish 8-1 in conference play. If Penn State wins tomorrow they will be 11-2, just like Stanford. But despite winning the Pac-12 title, Stanford got left out of the playoff. In fact, they were ranked behind 12-1 Iowa even though Iowa lost to Michigan State in the B1G title game. Fair or not, Stanford's early season loss to Northwestern kept them out of the playoffs, just like Penn State's loss to Pitt might keep them out.
When you have 5 power conferences and only 4 playoff spots there is going to be someone left out. And it's almost always going to be a team with multiple losses. There hasn't been a 2-loss team in the playoffs yet and there won't be this year either unless there are some upsets tomorrow.
I'd like to see an 8-team playoff with the 5 champions and 3 at-large bids.
Beat Wisconsin tomorrow and Penn State will probably be the highest ranked 2-loss team in America. That's not exactly being disrespected.
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I agree with what you're saying but the circumstances are different and if that can't be taken into account than the system is worse off than anyone imagined. Penn State was so depleted with injuries early on that it wasn't even the same team it is now. I know every team has injuries but not like that. PSU is undefeated with their full team.
You can argue that Oklahoma is overrated and Pitt is underrated, but ultimately that argument is fruitless because Penn State lost to Pitt and Ohio State beat Oklahoma soundly. Therein lies the difference.
Every rating systems that I've found says Ohio State's schedule was stronger than Penn State's. And they have a better record.
Winning the Big Ten is an impressive accomplishment, but it's only 75% of the equation when the discussion turns to national playoff bids.
So before conference tournaments they just...what? Drew names out of a hat? How did the B1G determine who made the big dance before 1998?
They're all a way to crown a champion and make a lot of money doing it, nothing more. Wisconsin, by standings and tiebreakers is the 4th best team after 9 conference games. Their claim to being the best in the conference is 100% geography. It's the system we have, and they will be B1G champs if they win tomorrow...but let's not pretend they're the best.
Too funny, by your very own argument, PSU was the absolute best team in b1g play by "standings and tiebreakers", which would only be further solidified if PSU wins tomorrow - they would be the only team with 9 b1g wins. So do tell how PSU would be an illegitimate "Conference Champion" given that PSU would have won the East Division Championship, the head-to-head over daO$U and the Conference Championship ON THE FIELD OF PLAY while also having the absolute best record in b1g play, 9-1, which is the topic in this thread LMFAO! You clearly flunked your logic and cognitive reasoning classes as you just labeled PSU the absolute best team in the B1G Conference with a win tomorrow by your own articulated absolute standards!
Before the tournament the conference champion got an auto bid into the tournament...you know, like every other sport except college football.
Oh brother. Remember the days when the losing team stayed off the winning team's message board except to offer a reluctant "Good game" comment? But such common trends do not apply to our Buckeye trolls.
I'll start by saying that after your Buckeyes weaseled into the playoffs in 2014 with the help of :fluky" officiating agauinst Penn State, I was stunned at the outstanding coaching job by Urban Meyer. His comeback win over Alabama and rout of Oregon -- with the 3rd-string QB -- convinced me that Meyer is certainly worthy of the title as "Best Head Coach in the Nation." But this past month, you fans have taxed my admiration of OSU to the limit.
You OSU guys already have an entire network (ESPN/ABC) shilling for you, complete with its pretty-boy "objective," "watches all the games" alumnus broadcaster.
You play in a conference that (1) fights vehemently to defer punishment for ineligible players so that you can send your best athletes to the bowl game; (2) encourages?/allows officiating that totally defies logic to get your team into the conference championship game.
Finally, you have a Playoff Committee that when you needed to jump 2 Big 12 teams with 11-1 records to make the playoffs, it rules that "Conference Championships are more important" Then, just 2 years later, when you have no chance at the conference championship because you lost to that Eastern interloper, the same committee rules that conference championships really aren't that important any more.
You have all that going in your favor, yet here you are on a board of a school slandered for actions done by an individual 15 years ago when current players were ages 3-7, seeking approval and support for once again politically sliding into the playoffs.
I swear. You and your twin Darling of this corrupt conference truly deserve each other.
I'll start by saying that after your Buckeyes weaseled into the playoffs in 2014 with the help of :fluky" officiating agauinst Penn State, I was stunned at the outstanding coaching job by Urban Meyer. His comeback win over Alabama and rout of Oregon -- with the 3rd-string QB -- convinced me that Meyer is certainly worthy of the title as "Best Head Coach in the Nation." But this past month, you fans have taxed my admiration of OSU to the limit.
You OSU guys already have an entire network (ESPN/ABC) shilling for you, complete with its pretty-boy "objective," "watches all the games" alumnus broadcaster.
You play in a conference that (1) fights vehemently to defer punishment for ineligible players so that you can send your best athletes to the bowl game; (2) encourages?/allows officiating that totally defies logic to get your team into the conference championship game.
Finally, you have a Playoff Committee that when you needed to jump 2 Big 12 teams with 11-1 records to make the playoffs, it rules that "Conference Championships are more important" Then, just 2 years later, when you have no chance at the conference championship because you lost to that Eastern interloper, the same committee rules that conference championships really aren't that important any more.
You have all that going in your favor, yet here you are on a board of a school slandered for actions done by an individual 15 years ago when current players were ages 3-7, seeking approval and support for once again politically sliding into the playoffs.
I swear. You and your twin Darling of this corrupt conference truly deserve each other.
Exactly, prior to the "Divisionalization" and CCG in the B1G (or any other conference for that matter), the "Conference Champion" was determined by standings & tiebreaker just like the Divisions now use and the Conference Champion received the conference "auto-bid" to the NCAA playoff and was not subject to worrying about an "at-large selection". IOW, that "Conference Champion" by standings and tiebreak rules would have been PSU under the old system just as they will be even more "authoritatively" with a win tomorrow which would only add to their B1G record which is ALREADY the absolute best record in conference play going into the BIG CCG!!! LMFAO that the Shizholian daO$U lame-o is declaring PSU the absolute best b1g shizhole team by his own self-declared objective standards - this moron clearly doesn't understand the rudimentary basics of forensic debate!
Right. And why they start playing tournaments?
(Psssst....it has to do with TV playing them fat stacks of cash to play tournaments.)
Before 6 years ago, the B1G champ went to the Rose/BCS. They started playing a conference title game because Fox dumped $20 million/year in their lap to play a conference title game.
Pssst...it also gives other teams a shot to get into the tournament. So it's a win win. Apparently college football's conference championship games are just for money.
Unless the team they want to get into the playoffs wins then it's all important. I guarantee if PSU and OSU's situation was flipped this year, OSU would get in if they won the championship.
We'll never know. I do think the committee will evolve how they choose teams and it's entirely likely that they will find 4 they want and back into the justification however they can.
None of that changes my opinions on the title games as they're constructed today though.
No doubt, if they're going to pick the teams then back into the explanation, there is absolutely no reason to have a championship game except money. There's also no reason to have a playoff committee except it's easier to control with a smaller number of people (and no pesky computers). They ought to just let them pick the four teams at the beginning of the season and save us all the time and effort of watching 13 exhibition games.We'll never know. I do think the committee will evolve how they choose teams and it's entirely likely that they will find 4 they want and back into the justification however they can.
None of that changes my opinions on the title games as they're constructed today though.
Pssst, if PSU wins tomorrow night - the winner of the regular season with the absolute best record (i.e., the old way the B1G Champion was determined) would be the same team as the winner of the Conference Championship game except with the reinforcement and reconfirmation of an additional B1G win over 2nd place daO$U (i.e., the new system for determining the B1G Champion via Championship Game between division winners)!!! LMFAO, this tool is trying to make a case that the "Old Way" truly determined the "best team with the best record in the B1G Conference" and if PSU wins the CCG it would render the EXACT SAME GD RESULT but with even a RECONFIRMATION of an additional win!!! IOW, by this tool's very own standard - PSU should be declared the best team in B1G Conference play right now, let alone the unquestioned best if they add a 9th B1G win tomorrow night!
If you want a serious conversation, someone thing for me. Quote where I said this. I don't want 20 lines of poor grammar, random caps, and even more random punctuation. Just quote this post, and quote the post where I said PSU would be illegitimate.
I don't know...their early rankings have been pretty bad in hindsight. Maybe we want those games played out some.
Anyway, through the course of the debate, I may have staked too extreme a position. Ohio State did play their way in in the B1G title game in 2014. Washington is eliminating any doubt tonight. Penn State or Wisconsin can make a claim with a dominating performance tomorrow. Alabama is in, so the SEC title game is 100% cash, no playoff implications whatsoever.
When I first chimed into this thread, my only point is that the conference champion by way of a title game is not always the best or most deserving team and no one should be surprised when a non-conference winner makes it. Three teams made the BCS title game without winning their conference and two of them without winning their division. If it can happen with two sports, it's going to happen with four.
You keep babbling about how the B1G Conference Championship Game does not produce the legitimate Conference Champion tool boy! PSU already produced the BEST RECORD BY STANDINGS AND TIEBREAKER DURING THE CONFERENCE REGULAR SEASON tool boy! (i.e., the "old system" you keep referencing). How would PSU reinforcing this with an ADDITIONAL B1G win against a Top 10 Wisconsin do anything but REINFORCE that they are the best team in the B1G Conference???
I don't know...their early rankings have been pretty bad in hindsight. Maybe we want those games played out some.
Anyway, through the course of the debate, I may have staked too extreme a position. Ohio State did play their way in in the B1G title game in 2014. Washington is eliminating any doubt tonight. Penn State or Wisconsin can make a claim with a dominating performance tomorrow. Alabama is in, so the SEC title game is 100% cash, no playoff implications whatsoever.
When I first chimed into this thread, my only point is that the conference champion by way of a title game is not always the best or most deserving team and no one should be surprised when a non-conference winner makes it. Three teams made the BCS title game without winning their conference and two of them without winning their division. If it can happen with two sports, it's going to happen with four.
And the illegitimacy of when it happened in the 2 team format - i.e., when Alabama got a second bite at the apple against LSU despite multiple other teams being easily as deserving as Alabama and never being given a single shot at LSU - is why the 2-team format was expanded to 4! (i.e., because a Committee subjectively picking two deserving teams from multiple deserving teams and screwing most of them while giving non-SEC Champion Alabama TWO SHOTS at LSU is patently UNFAIR!). It is still patently unfair under a 4-team SUBJECTIVE INVITATIONAL just as it was under a 2-team SUBJECTIVE INVITATIONAL tool-boy! daO$U does not deserve to be in a National Playoff if they didn't even win their own Conference's REGULAR SEASON or POST SEASON CCG!!!
