Seeding next year

[pish69]

i hope whoever does seedlings takes a look at this year and understands that you don’t punish kids for being hurt. I don’t get why being hurt late in the year punishes kids but sitting duals because it precaution doesn’t?

They should have some type of common sense clauses.

1. Never seed Jason Nolf anything other than 1
2. Keep Kemerer on opposite side since anyone with brain knows thes are most talented guys at weight
3. Stop rewarding “undefeated” seasons and use common sense. No way was Cruz a 1, Hidlay a 1 all the Missouri guys with great records that were seeded too high
4. They Should take into account past season results. How do you discount Lavalle getting smoked by Nolf last year and seed him ahead of Jason?

There’s no perfect system but there should be some common sense. Someone should look at the weight class see who the best 2 guys are and make sure they are on opposite sides. NATO/Lee should have been opppsite. Nolf/Kem should have been opposite, etc

 

[nitlion6]

i hope whoever does seedlings takes a look at this year and understands that you don’t punish kids for being hurt. I don’t get why being hurt late in the year punishes kids but sitting duals because it precaution doesn’t?

They should have some type of common sense clauses.

1. Never seed Jason Nolf anything other than 1
2. Keep Kemerer on opposite side since anyone with brain knows thes are most talented guys at weight
3. Stop rewarding “undefeated” seasons and use common sense. No way was Cruz a 1, Hidlay a 1 all the Missouri guys with great records that were seeded too high
4. They Should take into account past season results. How do you discount Lavalle getting smoked by Nolf last year and seed him ahead of Jason?

There’s no perfect system but there should be some common sense. Someone should look at the weight class see who the best 2 guys are and make sure they are on opposite sides. NATO/Lee should have been opppsite. Nolf/Kem should have been opposite, etc

There should be some room for a small amount of "common sense", but the whole process should be as objective as possible. Otherwise we get the College Football Playoff "eye-test".

There really wasn't anything wrong with seeding Jason 3rd, even though second would have made more sense. The common sense approach should have kicked in with Kemerer and Shields. Kemerer 6th and same side as Nolf when it was obvious there was an intent there is what was stupid.

 

[jrd23psu]

The idea that because Jason had a loss on his record from an injury default and meant he should drop in seeding was just stupid.

He is the clear cut best guy at 157lbs by a wide margin. Even injured nobody could touch him. Just silly.

 

[pish69]

There really wasn't anything wrong with seeding Jason 3rd, even though second would have made more sense. The common sense approach should have kicked in with Kemerer and Shields. Kemerer 6th and same side as Nolf when it was obvious there was an intent there is what was stupid.

YES there was something wrong. That’s my point. Nolf didn’t lose a real match and Hidlay didn’t wrestle anyone all year.

So you have defending national champ with an injury default who’s beaten everyone at this weight and then you have a freshman who didn’t wrestle anyone other than Lavalle who was over rated in his own right

 

[billrag]

Agree all around. Last year with Suriano you could understand since he didn't wrestle in the conference championship and the severity of his injury was a complete unknown, but this year we saw Nolf wrestle at Bigs, same for Kemmerer. The 157 seeding this year was an absolute joke and I have a hard time believing that it was anything other than trying to "put the fix in".

 

[nitlion6]

YES there was something wrong. That’s my point. Nolf didn’t lose a real match and Hidlay didn’t wrestle anyone all year.

So you have defending national champ with an injury default who’s beaten everyone at this weight and then you have a freshman who didn’t wrestle anyone other than Lavalle who was over rated in his own right

I really did not have an issue with Hidlay getting the first seed and Jason below him. Whether due to injury or not Jason had a loss, Hidlay did not.

Yes, Jason ended up proving a point. That standing on one leg I can whoop all of you, but coming into the tournament that point for many was highly questionable.

The easiest way to change that is to award seeding points for accomplishments earned throughout season plus consideration for previous season's championships.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

We need more participation in the 3 big tournaments. Vegas, Scuffle, and Midlands. Every team needs to attend at least one. NC State and Missouri attended none and had some great records. Arizona State does Vegas and Midlands so you know they don't have artificial unbeaten wrestlers. I would like to see PSU in Vegas. It would answer some big questions early. Change the point system to who you have beaten weighted 5-1 over who beat you. Set up a system where 2 solid wins and 2 solid losses outweigh one solid win.

 

[pish69]

The easiest way to change that is to award seeding points for accomplishments earned throughout season plus consideration for previous season's championships.

This 100%.

Losses should mean nothing unless they are true losses. If VanBrill beats Nolf after 7 minutes, then it’s a loss.

And I don’t agree losses should count as much as Big wins. All the B1G guys had to grind each other all year. If Hidlay were in B1Gs he would have had some losses

 

[T J]

i hope whoever does seedlings takes a look at this year and understands that you don’t punish kids for being hurt. I don’t get why being hurt late in the year punishes kids but sitting duals because it precaution doesn’t?

They should have some type of common sense clauses.

1. Never seed Jason Nolf anything other than 1st.
2. Keep Kemerer on opposite side since anyone with brain knows thes are most talented guys at weight
3. Stop rewarding “undefeated” seasons and use common sense. No way was Cruz a 1, Hidlay a 1 all the Missouri guys with great records that were seeded too high
4. They Should take into account past season results. How do you discount Lavalle getting smoked by Nolf last year and seed him ahead of Jason?

There’s no perfect system but there should be some common sense. Someone should look at the weight class see who the best 2 guys are and make sure they are on opposite sides. NATO/Lee should have been opppsite. Nolf/Kem should have been opposite, etc

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

There really wasn't anything wrong with seeding Jason 3rd, even though second would have made more sense. The common sense approach should have kicked in with Kemerer and Shields. Kemerer 6th and same side as Nolf when it was obvious there was an intent there is what was stupid.

This^^. I understand some seeding "punishment" for the MFFs in the conference tournament. I think that had more to do with Nolf's #3 seed than the single loss by injury default. Where the committee really failed was to then seed Kemerer at #6, when there was plenty of justification to give him #4 or #5, on the opposite side of the bracket from Nolf. That decision appeared to be strictly punitive and lacked any common sense.

Also, IMO it was hard to argue too much with Cruz getting the #1 seed at 125.

 

[El-Jefe]

The easiest way to change that is to award seeding points for accomplishments earned throughout season plus consideration for previous season's championships.

PA has been doing this for sectionals, districts, and states for 30+ years. No reason it can't be done by NCAA, except NCAA.

I'd also seed all the way to 33. There were some glaringly bad random draws -- the two that really stood out for me were Garett Hammond and Ryan Solomon. When you draw #1 in Round 1, that means you were unofficially the #32 or #33 guy -- which is patently wrong for both. Especially Solomon, geez, go from R12 last year to opening with Snyder.

There were also an absurd number of avoidable rematches too early in the brackets. Really, a 1-spot swap of seeds generally doesn't make that big of a difference.

 

[BigFreddy]

Hidlay beat Micah Jordan, Berger, Finesilver and Lavallee during the regular season.

Nolf beat Pantaleo and Finesilver.

I don't think it was such a travesty that Hidlay got the number 1 seed this year, given their respective resumes this season and Nolf's injury default loss.

 

[RoarLions1]

Seeding is hard, so many factors. I know, done it for many years. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to try to do it just once.

Missed some, I’m sure...quick look at 2018 and we see 6 unseeded AA’s, and at least 8 seeded 9-16 that ended AA.

 

[pish69]

Hidlay beat Micah Jordan, Berger, Finesilver and Lavallee during the regular season.

Nolf beat Pantaleo and Finesilver.

I don't think it was such a travesty that Hidlay got the number 1 seed this year, given their respective resumes this season and Nolf's injury default loss.

But the reality is no one is better than Nolf. Not even close. At 100% he majors Hidlay.

I guess my point is, there has to be some rationale when you have special talents.

Yes Hidlay beat Jordan and Levalle, yes he undefeated. Not taking that away from him. The reality is he not better than Nolf or Kem.

 

[pish69]

Seeding is hard, so many factors. I know, done it for many years. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to try to do it just once.

Missed some, I’m sure...quick look at 2018 and we see 6 unseeded AA’s, and at least 8 seeded 9-16 that ended AA.

I’m sure it’s tough. Maybe Flo rankings should be used for seedings as it seemed a better representation than the seeding committee. Then again who knows.

All I know is Darian Cruz not in same league as Spencer Lee, NATO or Nick and yet he was seeded ahead of him. Meanwhile I don’t know anyone other than diehard Lehigh fans that would pick Cruz to win that weight

 

[dicemen99]

Seeding is hard, so many factors. I know, done it for many years. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs to try to do it just once.

Missed some, I’m sure...quick look at 2018 and we see 6 unseeded AA’s, and at least 8 seeded 9-16 that ended AA.

As have I, but you have to admit that giving NO consideration to previous year's accomplishments is pretty much a thing of the past now. Since PA no longer does it, I'm unaware of any tournament that does this currently. Maybe Iowa states?

Not hard at all to come up with a prestige point system. I've done it myself and it works very well and if you're not inclined to make your own, there are many examples out there that you can copy.

 

[Ian]

The cream always rises to the top...... it’s an inexact science. Cael is not going to change his routine of going to the Keystone and Southern Scuffle tournaments if the schedule works out. The guys don’t need to prove anything by going to Vegas or the Midlands. Now schedule Iowa every year!

 

[kingslayer_85]

Hidlay beat Micah Jordan, Berger, Finesilver and Lavallee during the regular season.

Nolf beat Pantaleo and Finesilver.

I don't think it was such a travesty that Hidlay got the number 1 seed this year, given their respective resumes this season and Nolf's injury default loss.

In my opinion the travesty was kem who is the clear 2nd best 157 being seeded 6 and in the same side with Nolf. All that does is mess up the brackets on the back side for folks like Shields who should be AA except for having to face the 2nd best wrestler in consolations

 

[a_mshaffer]

This 100%.

Losses should mean nothing unless they are true losses. If VanBrill beats Nolf after 7 minutes, then it’s a loss.

And I don’t agree losses should count as much as Big wins. All the B1G guys had to grind each other all year. If Hidlay were in B1Gs he would have had some losses

Well, it shouldn’t be ignored if you are getting your butt kicked and then get hurt

 

[pish69]

Well, it shouldn’t be ignored if you are getting your butt kicked and then get hurt

Agree. Again. Just some common sense in certain areas and I’m happy.

 

[diggerpup]

My big thing w seeding -

Either have zero coaches on the committee - or have a true committee of about 1/2Dozen or so coaches.

 

[billrag]

In my opinion the travesty was kem who is the clear 2nd best 157 being seeded 6 and in the same side with Nolf. All that does is mess up the brackets on the back side for folks like Shields who should be AA except for having to face the 2nd best wrestler in consolations

Agreed, and it also sometimes leads to someone getting more team points and further into the tournament than they deserved because of a ridiculously high seed.

 

[ptomaselli]

Here's one that needs changing...a wrestler should not get 2 points for a MedFor/InjDef. They didn't earn those 2 points on the mat.

 

[dicemen99]

Here's one that needs changing...a wrestler should not get 2 points for a MedFor/InjDef. They didn't earn those 2 points on the mat.

I think if you think that all the way through that is not a very good idea.

 

[ptomaselli]

I think if you think that all the way through that is not a very good idea.

If you're talking about situations like Nolf and Kemerer where they MedFor down to 6th place to make it to a tourney, you're saying without the bonus points MedFor would be rampant?

 

[PSUer1989]

If you're talking about situations like Nolf and Kemerer where they MedFor down to 6th place to make it to a tourney, you're saying without the bonus points MedFor would be rampant?

Or opponents have their huge underdog just MFF to keep it close with the stronger team...

 

[Chickenman Testa]

How about halving bonus in consis?

 

[El-Jefe]

In my opinion the travesty was kem who is the clear 2nd best 157 being seeded 6 and in the same side with Nolf. All that does is mess up the brackets on the back side for folks like Shields who should be AA except for having to face the 2nd best wrestler in consolations

Shields did place. And losing to Zilverberg in round 2 was drove him into Kemerer in consis.

Also not entirely convinced Kemerer was better than Hidlay. He might win, but hard to seed him ahead after getting stuck by Jordan at B10s.

 

[nitlion6]

The cream always rises to the top...... it’s an inexact science. Cael is not going to change his routine of going to the Keystone and Southern Scuffle tournaments if the schedule works out. The guys don’t need to prove anything by going to Vegas or the Midlands. Now schedule Iowa every year!

As I have posted many times. If up to Cael Penn State wrestles Iowa every single year. Iowa owes Penn State a trip. The last time Iowa and Penn State were not scheduled the reason they did not wrestle was Iowa would not travel despite the fact the previous unscheduled year Penn State traveled to Iowa.
So bottom line is simple, if Iowa is agreeable to traveling to Penn State this year the match will be scheduled. If not it will not happen. It is a Tom Brand's decision.

 

[RoarLions1]

As have I, but you have to admit that giving NO consideration to previous year's accomplishments is pretty much a thing of the past now. Since PA no longer does it, I'm unaware of any tournament that does this currently. Maybe Iowa states?

Not hard at all to come up with a prestige point system. I've done it myself and it works very well and if you're not inclined to make your own, there are many examples out there that you can copy.

"Body of work" works well. Only a couple seeds this year that a few are confused about, so it's no like they need to revamp the entire system.

 

[dicemen99]

"Body of work" works well. Only a couple seeds this year that a few are confused about, so it's no like they need to revamp the entire system.

I would agree with that. Expanding body of work beyond the current year is a simple and logical tweak to the existing system.

 

[RandyL]

just out of curiosity, and not arguing that anything inappropriate was going on....is there a complete list of who was on the seeding committee?

Is it done on some kind of rotating schedule?

 

[SetonHallPirate]

just out of curiosity, and not arguing that anything inappropriate was going on....is there a complete list of who was on the seeding committee?

Is it done on some kind of rotating schedule?

Dr. Billy Walker, Athletic Director, American (chair, expires 2018)
Heath Eslinger, Head Coach, Chattanooga (expires 2019)
Tom Ryan, Head Coach, Ohio State (expires 2019)
Brian Smith, Head Coach, Missouri (expires 2019)
Phil Wille, Sr. Associate AD for Internal Operations, Wyoming (expires 2020)
Karen Langston, Sr. Associate AD for External Affairs & Capital Projects, CSU Bakersfield (expires 2021)

 

[RoarLions1]

just out of curiosity, and not arguing that anything inappropriate was going on....is there a complete list of who was on the seeding committee?

Is it done on some kind of rotating schedule?

Head Wrestling Coach Brian Smith University of Missouri, Columbia Southeastern Conference AUG 2019
Head Wrestling Coach Tom Ryan The Ohio State University Big Ten Conference AUG 2019
Sr. Associate AD for Internal Operations Phil Wille University of Wyoming Mountain West Conference AUG 2020
Head Wrestling Coach Heath Eslinger University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Southern Conference AUG 2019*
AD William Walker American University Patriot League AUG 2018
DI Associate AD for External Relations Karen Langston California State University, Bakersfield Western Athletic Conference AUG 2021

Not done by rotation. Each position has a term limit, and interested parties are nominated and voted in. Appears they may not allow two from the same conference. Some are coaches, some are administrators. Just my thinking, I believe a presence from referees would be beneficial.

Tom Ryan's term (noted above, repeated here) expires in August 2019.

 

[Ian]

How does Ohio State get on another seeding type committee?

 

[RandyL]

Thanks fellas

 

[GhostK]

The obvious question----why isn't Cael on the seeding committee?

 

[GhostK]

Also, do all the seeding committee members have wrestling experience? I did a quick search on Karen Langston who is tenured until 2021 and she used to be a volleyball player. It seems she has no wrestling experience...what makes her qualified to seed wrestlers?

Would we trust Cael to seed the NCAA women's volleyball tournament?

 

[El-Jefe]

Head Wrestling Coach Brian Smith University of Missouri, Columbia Southeastern Conference AUG 2019
Head Wrestling Coach Tom Ryan The Ohio State University Big Ten Conference AUG 2019
Sr. Associate AD for Internal Operations Phil Wille University of Wyoming Mountain West Conference AUG 2020
Head Wrestling Coach Heath Eslinger University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Southern Conference AUG 2019*
AD William Walker American University Patriot League AUG 2018
DI Associate AD for External Relations Karen Langston California State University, Bakersfield Western Athletic Conference AUG 2021

Not done by rotation. Each position has a term limit, and interested parties are nominated and voted in. Appears they may not allow two from the same conference. Some are coaches, some are administrators. Just my thinking, I believe a presence from referees would be beneficial.

Tom Ryan's term (noted above, repeated here) expires in August 2019.

What does the asterisk next to Eslinger represent?

Also, isn't he the replacement for the committee member who became head coach at PSU Behrend?

 

[RoarLions1]

What is the asterisk next to Eslinger represent?

Also, isn't he the replacement for the committee member who became head coach at PSU Behrend?

I did see something about a replacement, but don't remember the details.

The asterisk represents he's eligible for a 2nd term once his current one expires.