Southern Scuffle Day 2 Session 3 - Semis and 5th Rnd Consi
- Thread starter dunkej01
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Oh I can’t wait to watch McKenna drive around, stuck in reverse for 7 minutes vs Young Nick Lee.
It wasn't as clear of a TD as I expected in reading the comments.. For those who really understand the rules of control etc... what are your thoughts?
I'm really not sure how this isn't a takedown in hindsight. Even if you assume Cassar doesn't have control for the entire time UNI is on his back, the danger rule surely applies and 4 seconds went off the clock.
We shouldn’t try to figure out what was going on in the refs head. This was the same ref that awarded Verk a TD and 30 seconds of scramble later he awarded him a reversal.
Problem with the rule, as interpreted here, is that Cassar would have easily gotten the two points by spinning his body parallel instead of going to chest to chest looking for the pin. Rules shouldn't incentivize takedowns over pins. If you have your guy on his back and you're chest to chest like that, that should be deemed sufficient control. Rare occurrence, sure, but it's as if baseball deemed home runs foul balls.
Shorter above: YOU'RE KILLING THE SPORT!!
the only thing i can see is that the refs says he wasn't chest to chest long enough and then the guy puts his arm around Cassar's leg which the ref viewed as Cassar not having control.
lol. that seems logical, but it's not the case. To become a HS ref in PA, you take a test where you have to score 75 (or is it 80; I can't remember) or higher on the rules. You then have to join a wrestling referees chapter, and attend 7 meetings. Those meetings are supposed to be informational and instructional, and at times they are. However, new refs are not given hours of instruction. Most of them are thrown into youth, middle school, or HS JV matches with absolutely no instruction, and nobody watching them and providing feedback. Most refs learn on the job by a combination of: making mistakes, thinking through what they did and learning from it, observing other refs in tournaments (this helps a lot), and picking the brains of other refs at the chapter meetings. I should note that since youth wrestling follows NFHS rules (with a few modifications), passing the PIAA test makes you eligible to wrestle youth matches. However, the youth meets usually take place on Saturday, when the PIAA refs are also needed for HS matches, and HS tournaments. This means there are frequently not enough refs to go around. As a result, it's not uncommon for youth meets to include some refs that have never passed the test -- they're nothing more than kids or adults that have expressed interest in reffing, and are sent out to the match with no instruction AND with no prior reffing experience.
nitlion6 has it correct. New refs are lucky if they have a friend that is a ref, as they can meet with them or call them and get some instruction from them.
The proper sequence is to signal the TD, and to then start the swipes. If a ref has a silent count going while signaling the TD, the coaching staff of the bottom wrestler is not going to be pleased with counts starting at 3 or 4. It's not wrong for the ref to do that, and there is nothing the coaching staff can do about it, but it causes friction. Refs do take that into consideration when deciding how to handle a TD-to-back-to-NF situations, and as I mentioned previously, will often go directly to the swipes and award the TD later.
I suffer from 20 x 20 bias, but that is a takedown every bit as much as a hand touch. Should have been two.
However. Cassar could have been in on the legs like that 20 times if he wanted, and you need to finish those. The call sucked. The fact this particular match was presented to the possibility of "blown call" was a situation self induced by Anthony.
USC coaching legend John McKay was ask why he ran OJ Simpson 35 or more times a game. He answered when you have the biggest cannon on the field why wouldn't you just keep firing the thing.
If you have an offensive attack almost nobody can stop why in the Sam Hill do you need cajoled into using it. Keep attacking. This kid (Cassar) should walk onto the mat with a personal goal of 10 takedowns. Every freaking match, no exceptions. If he gets to 10, immediately readjust goal to 15.
However. Cassar could have been in on the legs like that 20 times if he wanted, and you need to finish those. The call sucked. The fact this particular match was presented to the possibility of "blown call" was a situation self induced by Anthony.
USC coaching legend John McKay was ask why he ran OJ Simpson 35 or more times a game. He answered when you have the biggest cannon on the field why wouldn't you just keep firing the thing.
If you have an offensive attack almost nobody can stop why in the Sam Hill do you need cajoled into using it. Keep attacking. This kid (Cassar) should walk onto the mat with a personal goal of 10 takedowns. Every freaking match, no exceptions. If he gets to 10, immediately readjust goal to 15.
That happens far more frequently than most would expect in tournaments, especially at the lower levels, where refs may do 80-100 matches over 5 hours, with little or no break.
In D1 tournaments like the scuffle, you have more experienced refs, and they have breaks built in to their rotations. As such, it is not too common in D1 tournaments, but it does happen. In tournaments, where there are variety of colored uniforms, and a blue uni may be wearing green ankle bands in a match, and 10 minutes later the same ref has a blue uni that is wearing red ankle bands, can play with the ref's mind, especially when there is a lot of scrambling. In college, the 2nd ref will usually pick up the mistake and mention it to the ref, or the table will ask for a clarification, and the mistake gets resolved.
That's a really tough sequence for a ref. However, I think the ref(s) got the call correct.
The hand touch comparison isn't all that valid here, as hand touches are a unique situation where the offensive wrestler is behind the defensive wrestler, on their feet, and a touch of the mat by a defensive wrestler, even momentarily, is considered control and thus a TD.
In the sequence with Cassar, it's such a fluid situation. Just when I think Cassar has control, the defensive wrestler has the leg and then is coming up on the side and has Cassar out in front, and Cassar has no control.
Think of the Hall - BoJo NCAA final last year. Tan Tom and tOSU fans felt BoJo had a TD. However, it was a fluid situation that in real time was not a TD.
Holy Moly.
The only thing Cassar failed to do on that Double leg was spike the kid in the end zone and do a touchdown dance.
That call reminds me of the Jesse James “TD”, Steelers vs Patriots.
Where the Letter of the Rule totally destroys the Spirit of the Sport.
Total Garbage.
Still ..... Cael has said in the past that it’s an objective sport and to not leave the outcome in the Refs’ hands.
(ie - no more 0-0 first periods )
The only thing Cassar failed to do on that Double leg was spike the kid in the end zone and do a touchdown dance.
That call reminds me of the Jesse James “TD”, Steelers vs Patriots.
Where the Letter of the Rule totally destroys the Spirit of the Sport.
Total Garbage.
Still ..... Cael has said in the past that it’s an objective sport and to not leave the outcome in the Refs’ hands.
(ie - no more 0-0 first periods )
Not sure if this was talked about, but the other ref criticism in Cassar loss was when he got locked hands call, right around the last escape, they didnt seem to check video evidence to set riding time. It was at 104 and they seemed to just estimate the time back to 58. The announcers of the match were sarcastically poking fun at refs for this. Maybe they did look or someone did but it didn't appear as such.
The problem as I see it is the review slowed the sequence and allowed a bit of an evaluation of where the opponent's hands are. When he goes to his back they are still wrapped around Cassar, and I'm not sure why that should be a factor. Further Cassar sends his right arm over the body rather than back to the near side where he will have the correct leverage, and the movement continues.
Still, in real time he is ON his back with no measure of control other than the hand wrap. Even without full leverage "control" from Cassar his move put the opponent on the back for 2-3 seconds and if you can't get a TD from that motion, it is hard to know what would cause the ref to give it.
Note also that it was the secondary ref that waved off the TD and then they went to the review. The primary called it, and in my opinion correctly.
Caesar should have done better with his right arm, and perhaps as NitLion said, gone around to secured the TD and win, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a TD....sloppy finish or not.
Funny, I thought his mistake was with his left arm. Might not have been able to sink a half, but a tight overhook lets him lean on his right hip and trap Holschlag on his back. Or at least post it to the side to brace against the roll thru. Under the back was the least effective of those options.
Of course easy for me to say from my phone ...
I won’t argue with the left arm. My issue with the right is he crosses the body and can’t presure back. Eventually he does but it’s too late.
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