Simmons looks like a LB, and Toney probably a little leaner than Simmons. Great talent to speed rush a QB, but I just don't see them holding up against 300+LB OT's against the run..... But it's great to have top athletes at DE.
Spring Camp News Thread....
- Thread starter Judge Smails
- Start date
Simmons looks like a LB, and Toney probably a little leaner than Simmons. Great talent to speed rush a QB, but I just don't see them holding up against 300+LB OT's against the run..... But it's great to have top athletes at DE.
Can we please get this thread back on track to THIS YEAR'S team. At this point I really don't care whether John Thomas was a lousy S&C coach or not, since he's no longer here.
Simmons has, or will have, enough size to be a BIG DE. Toney will need nothing less than a Nassibian transformation to be an every down player.
We've already seen that Spencer likes to rotate a lot of people, so both guys will probably be used mostly on third and long situations this season. Fortunately, we appear to have enough depth to do this.
Just from casual observation, Simmons doesn't seem to be gaining much size. He was physically impressive when he declared for PSU as a high school junior, and he is still physically impressive, just doesn't seem to be adding much weight. The question is whether Simmons and Toney will get measurably bigger, or if not, have the athletic ability to be effective defenders and pass rushers off the edge. Hope each finds the appropriate role -- they're very good athletes.
Simmons is now listed as 6'3", 244 as a RS Fr. I expect he'll probably play around 250 for most of his career, which is not big, but adequate for a speed DE.
Toney is listed as 222 now, so it's harder to imagine him adding enough size to be anything more than a situational player as a DE.
If these guys have aspirations to play at the next level, it will not be as DE's.
The good thing about our roster is that we have a variety of body types at the position.
In 2016, four of the top 10 sack leaders were 250lbs or under. That includes two under 235lbs.
He has a narrow frame. Luckily, you can be successful in college without being thick at the DE position. I think he will turn out having a similar career as Aaron Maybin... hopefully without leaving too early. Maybin never got above 245 at PSU.
Yet we haven't seen Toney moving to LB. That's a bit of a mystery with Cabinda & Smith gone after this year.
But he was wrong and was enabled to continue as other programs used best in practice options.
How does Menet look taller to you? He is in the foreground (by a little) and Will Fries's head is clearly above Menet's... it's almost cropped out of the photo in fact.Basically the same picture but from the side. Looks more like their listed dimensions, eh?
All April Fools jokes should be required to be deleted on April 2nd...
Last edited:
Simmons is lean but incredibly strong. Even more he uses that strength to the max with perfect technique with his hands and long arms. Every clip I've seen (hs, camp, and practice) he controls much larger lineman with his strength and perfectly placed hands. He will be fine and I stick with my prediction of him having a huge break out year
I like the here and now. But since you brought it go see Ohio Lions post on this.
Toney will never play LB IMO, nor should he. He is a rush specialist with explosiveness like we haven't seen in some time. He is already almost as big as Maybin was when he started getting major minutes. He had little training and a poor diet prior to arriving here. Don't be shocked to see him close to 230 by the start of the season. He has gained over 25 lbs since arriving on campus.
Maybin played at @ 230-235 his last year here. He added a ton of weight between his last game and the combine. If memory serves he added almost 20 lbs in that time frame.
Anxious to know more about:
- LB: Will Cooper be ready? Can Miller or Thomas make an impact?
- DE: Will Simmons, Toney, or Joseph challenge Brown and Buchholz for PT at DE?
- DT: Any PT for Jordan?
- CB: Taylor was highly rated and this is his 3rd year. Will he finally break through?
- OL: Health of Mahon & Nelson?
- WR: How much PT for Charles & Johnson?
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Amazing no OL questions. That is a great feeling.
Go back and read the posts. I said that "Looks more like their listed dimensions, eh?" Their listed dimensions are Fries much larger framed than Menet. So you are fishing in the wrong pond. I posted that picture in response to another post of a picture from another angle that seemed to show Menet larger than Fries......
No doubt that Simmons will be productive on passing downs. But I stick with my opinion that we need size at DE that Miller seems to have in order to stop the run against good teams and make them get to 3rd down.................
Won't be shocked to see Toney at 230 lbs by September, but 230 is still LB size in 2017. I watched some of Toney's H.S. film and his sideline to sideline pursuit looked ideal for LB. Others here have also watched his film and with our need for LB depth the subject will continue to surface...... I just hope he is a dynamic playmaker where ever he plays!!
Don't have to move him to DE, as he is already there........ and has been since he arrived on campus as a true freshmen.
Last edited:
IIRC, he was a guy who would add weight over the summer and then lose 10-15lbs during the season.
We have two separate DE positions in our scheme, it isn't a balanced line. Toney will play the wDE role without any position flexibility between the 2. Simmons is more of the type of kid that could eventually slide to sDE but it's unlikely. A kid like Matos is going to be your true sDE type. This staff likes position flexibility whenever possible. That's why you will see many kids come in with two possible homes. Think Bucholtz flipping back and forth from DE to DT. All our LB's are cross trained at 2 different spots. Our 2 safety positions are basically interchangeable. We have the Star which is the transition position between LB and S. Many of our corners move to S. In this day and age when you are battling the 85 man limit, it only makes sense to try to maximize your chances with a system that emphasizes position flexibility. Toney might be one of the few exceptions that really only has one hole in the roster he can fill. I don't think he can ever get to the size needed for sDE and he doesn't have the ability to play in space.(IMO) I liken him to Wake in that sense except Wake had a little thicker frame.
Good post but what makes you think Toney can't play in space? Have you watched practices or has someone who would know told you as much? Just curious because this is the second time you've expressed an opinion about Shaka's skills or lack of. How are you informed?
Simmons and Toney are both still in there true frosh year. They have literally years to continue to add good weight. Neither is going to be called on to be an every down player because PSU finally has some depth. Brown and Miller will start. Simmons and Toney both need to play about 20 snaps per game mainly in pass situations. They will be fine and I expect as the years go on and they stay in Galts program will be plenty big for everydown guys by the time they are expected to be them.
I was hoping that CJF would upgrade our DE size going forward to more like what oh-high-ya regularly puts on the field. And what Bama plays. i.e. bigger DE's that can hold up better and more regularly stop the run the against the big OL's that top teams have. Neither Simmons or Toney are anywhere near big enough at this point to do that. Schwan and Sickels last year, both around 260, were very average in size and were pretty average against the run against the best teams PSU played.
Yes Matos has a big frame, but he is years in the weight room away from being the 270-280 lb DE that can line up and stop Bama from running right at him.
As Cletus points out both Simmons and Toney are still very early in their careers and will get bigger. But with Sickels leaving Simmons, Joseph and Toney will be integral players and be on the field a good bit in 2017. And with Brown having eligibility only through 2018 our DE position will be pretty young for the next few years. It will be interesting to see how CJF plans to stop oh-high-ya, michigan, wisky... and others from running the ball the next few years. Having big dominant DT's will surely help. I'm hoping Buchholz plays lots of DE in our base defense.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Simmons at 260 or better next spring. Judging by the pictures, he looks like most of his weight gain - reportedly 20+ pounds - is in his lower body. By the time Miller and Brown leave after next season, he should easily have the weight it takes to be an every-down DE.
Edit: Thanks for the catch, Greg. No idea what I was thinking about.
Last edited:
Brown leaves after 2018, but Miller is just a redshirt soph in 2017 with 3 more years of eligibility, just like Buchholz. But to be fresh in the 4th quarter CJF will play at least 4 DE's and more likely 5 or 6 when he has 5 or 6 good one's.
Hope you are correct about Simmons, but he really does not have a big frame for a DE and I will be surprised if he is a legit 260+ a year from now.
Last edited:
I've seen him enough between HS and the one time I got to see him during a practice last year that I believe I have a pretty good bead on how he moves. Honestly, it's not really even a knock on him as much as it is a statement of how special he can be in the role of rush specialist. It's also less about lacking physical tools to play LB as it is instincts. I think he is a kid that you need to give a target to point at and let him go, much like Wake. Wake struggled when he was here bc he was asked to read keys vs just go whip his assignment one on one. When he went to Canada, that was the role they carved out for him and he excelled to the point that the NFL took notice and took a chance that he could fill that role at the highest level.
The reports early on on JJ have me pretty excited. The dude is just a freak in terms of size and athleticism. Hopefully it all comes to together for him and Charles this year...it could be downright scary if they do.
