Steep enrollment declines at PA State colleges

[LemonEars]

Just my opinion, but I believe somewhere along the way going to college changed from "going to college to get a job", to "going to college for "fun" and to stay in school".

Just as an example. I graduated HS in 82 and wanted to attend college. My family was lower-middle class so going to college was a stretch for the family. My parents wanted to know things like "what was my major", "how many jobs could I get with my major", "what type of jobs I'd get with my major", and "once I graduated, would having a degree in my major help me land a good job". My parents were very influential in the major I chose. I ended with a degree in Finance and minor in Accounting. The only other choice they were going to approve was an engineering degree. My parents saw Finance, Accounting or Engineering as worthwhile investments to make so 4 years later I could be a wage earner.

Fast forward to the early 2000s. My sisters kid graduated HS and wanted to attend college. He was not sure of his major and my sister & her husband did not push him on a degree. He chose Psychology because it sounded fun, and "nothing else" appealed to him. During his 4 years of under-grad we told both my sister & my nephew that having a 4-year degree in Psychology was not going to get him a good paying job. With that degree he needed to go for a masters or even doctorate. A 4-year degree in Psychology was going to get him a $25,000/year social services job.......... Sure enough that happened. He ended up getting a social services job. Worked that a few years and decided to go back to college. This time he decided on "Film". We advised him that if he was going for "Film" he needed to go out to CA and go to a USC or UCLA that had Film programs that would set him up in the business. He stayed in PA and went another 4 years to a PA college for Film......... Again, that got him no real job. He went to college for 8 years. Got 2 majors. Had no real plans. Was not advised that those 4/8 years of college should be used to get a job. He is in big time student debt. And not working in either Psych or Film.

I believe this is the type of crap we need to stop.

You make a lot of good points, Kiber. I think a root cause of this problem is either non-existent or weak fathers. When I was a senior in HS I decided that I was going to go to Franklin and Marshall to study political science. I decided this because I wanted to be John Kennedy - handsome, pretty wife, powerful, etc. One night at dinner my Dad looked at me and said, "You are going to Penn State and you are going to study engineering." That was the end of it. What my Dad said was non-negotiable. I did what he said and I think it was the right decision. I don't think that happens much these days.

 

[diontechristmas]

Doesn't look like the south is any cheaper

Univ South Carolina- https://www.sc.edu/apply/cost_tuition_financial_aid/
In State:26,007
Out State: 46,896

Univ Georgia- https://www.admissions.uga.edu/afford/
In State: 27,450
Out State: 47,136

Alabama- https://financialaid.ua.edu/cost/
In State: 30,886
Out State: 51,236

The regional state universities are much cheaper.

Tuition at Georgia Southern University is something like $6,500 per year.

 

[Lyons212]

FWIW:

The average student at many private universities - like Lehigh - pays LESS in tuition than the average student at UP..... once you figure in the amount of Aid/Scholarship $ provided by the University:

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/pennsylvania/lehigh-university/price/

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-state-university-main-campus/price/

(So, Lehigh and PSU are basically the same net cost - for the average student..... Lehigh being a bit less for students coming from "modest" means, a bit more for students of wealthy parents)


One of the great misperceptions regarding college costs is that "private" Universities have higher costs.
Some do.... many (most?) do not - - - - - because what they do is have very high "sticker prices" - but provide HUGE discounts off of that sticker price for the vast majority of students.
Very few students at most private universities pay anything close to the sticker price.

Exactly right. I know a family whose son attends a ivy league school for $14K a year. Once his sister starts college in the fall, the ivy league school will be $7K a year.

 

[Parkland Fan]

My state roommate and still BFF is sending kid 2 to Lehigh. #$67k per for FVCKS sake

And Lehigh is expanding with an additional building for the College of Business and a new College of Health Sciences. Plus they just completed a major expansion of student housing. Lehigh recognizes that it is in a very competitive market for the students in their target market.

 

[Secret Asian Man]

too many kids going to school as elementary ed or social program majors racking up $200,000 in loans. You just aren't going to make enough money, early in your career, to cover that burden.

 

[PSUoh90]

I agree 100%. I'm surprised PSU Branch campuses arent fiaring better. They are a good alternative to high cost Universities. Looks like they need some consolidation.

I think that's the problem though, while less expensive than Main, they're still far more expensive than the PA state schools and especially community colleges.

 

[joeparules]

Good! It's been far too many years that the "college for all" mantra has been beaten into kids heads leading to a massive glut of over educated and under employed 20 somethings with crushing student loans.

Hopefully people have learned that "______ for all" is never a good idea. I believe it was the HUD director in the early 2000s that felt everyone should be able to buy their own house!? How did that work out? You forget about all the people who make a living off of the rental market (landlords, building managers, leasing agents, etc). If everyone went to college, who would work on cars, HVAC systems, plumbing and construction since I don't believe those are majors?!

On the other hand, the universities need to take a look in the mirror and determine how to cut costs. Do the schools really need all these fancy amenities?

I knew this was a problem when touring UNF with my younger daughter and they told us about the lazy river in one of their two dorm complexes. FSU had a huge rock-climbing wall and an entire building just for women's volleyball. Seriously?

 

[LemonEars]

too many kids going to school as elementary ed or social program majors racking up $200,000 in loans. You just aren't going to make enough money, early in your career, to cover that burden.

Very true. And what about Art History or sociology majors. Parents aren't doing their job by helping kids make good decisions. Parents let their kids drift into college, spending 4 years partying, and then being ruined for the next 40 years with backbreaking debt and a minimum wage job. The kids should be allowed to sue their parents for malfeasance.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

too many kids going to school as elementary ed or social program majors racking up $200,000 in loans. You just aren't going to make enough money, early in your career, to cover that burden.

You don't have to go to Harvard or Georgetown to be a school teacher. Part of the issue is a) we need school teachers, and b) the 'value' of a teaching degree isn't the same as other areas of study (for the most part). There should be incentives to be a teacher - lower tuition or loan assistance/forgiveness would be a start (noting that kind of program already exists but is not working as intended).

 

[PSUoh90]

Very true. And what about Art History or sociology majors. Parents aren't doing their job by helping kids make good decisions. Parents let their kids drift into college, spending 4 years partying, and then being ruined for the next 40 years with backbreaking debt and a minimum wage job. The kids should be allowed to sue their parents for malfeasance.

In fairness, you can spend 4 years partying and still graduate with a useful degree and solid GPA. I know plenty of people who did.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Very true. And what about Art History or sociology majors. Parents aren't doing their job by helping kids make good decisions. Parents let their kids drift into college, spending 4 years partying, and then being ruined for the next 40 years with backbreaking debt and a minimum wage job. The kids should be allowed to sue their parents for malfeasance.

There is value/need for art history and sociology professionals. The cost to get a degree in art history shouldn't be the same as it is to get a degree in mechanical engineering. Not everyone can or should be an engineer, scientist, or doctor.

 

[Delco Lion]

I think that's the problem though, while less expensive than Main, they're still far more expensive than the PA state schools and especially community colleges.

You are correct. I wrote checks to PSU Brandywine and WCU and I think they may have been the same. Its fuzzy now, but I was surprised at the cost of Brandywine. With that being said, it was still a bargain.

 

[Secret Asian Man]

There is value/need for art history and sociology professionals. The cost to get a degree in art history shouldn't be the same as it is to get a degree in mechanical engineering. Not everyone can or should be an engineer, scientist, or doctor.

fair enough...it is governed by the simple law of supply and demand. Perhaps it shouldn't be....

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

fair enough...it is governed by the simple law of supply and demand. Perhaps it shouldn't be....

Is it though? The cost to get an art history degree is the cost - it doesn't fluctuate because of demand (only by school).

 

[Parkland Fan]

Hopefully people have learned that "______ for all" is never a good idea. I believe it was the HUD director in the early 2000s that felt everyone should be able to buy their own house!? How did that work out? You forget about all the people who make a living off of the rental market (landlords, building managers, leasing agents, etc). If everyone went to college, who would work on cars, HVAC systems, plumbing and construction since I don't believe those are majors?!

I knew this was a problem when touring UNF with my younger daughter and they told us about the lazy river in one of their two dorm complexes. FSU had a huge rock-climbing wall and an entire building just for women's volleyball. Seriously?

As I mentioned in my post above about Lehigh, schools are in a very competitive market. While it might make sense to compete by lowering tuition and increasing financial aid, many schools are competing by adding modern housing and gyms. Thus, raising the cost to attend.

 

[Secret Asian Man]

Very true. And what about Art History or sociology majors. Parents aren't doing their job by helping kids make good decisions. Parents let their kids drift into college, spending 4 years partying, and then being ruined for the next 40 years with backbreaking debt and a minimum wage job. The kids should be allowed to sue their parents for malfeasance.

it is a scaling issue. If you can pay $200k and your kid needs four years to find themselves, it is a personal issue. But many kid's parents have no idea how to help guide their kids. in the current environment, you can't spend $200k for a $12k per year job. but a lot of kid's parents are blue collar people admirably trying to allow their kids to live a better life than them. The problem is that they don't have the experience to provide guidance.

 

[PSUoh90]

You are correct. I wrote checks to PSU Brandywine and WCU and I think they may have been the same. Its fuzzy now, but I was surprised at the cost of Brandywine. With that being said, it was still a bargain.

This list is outdated, but still paints the picture. Click "Check out the complete list here". It is flooded with PSU campuses.

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-expensive-public-universities-2014-7

 

[PS4814]

You don't have to go to Harvard or Georgetown to be a school teacher. Part of the issue is a) we need school teachers, and b) the 'value' of a teaching degree isn't the same as other areas of study (for the most part). There should be incentives to be a teacher - lower tuition or loan assistance/forgiveness would be a start (noting that kind of program already exists but is not working as intended).

And that’s where the PASSHE schools began - as teacher colleges. Then somewhere over the decades they ballooned into their current state and are now struggling to even get people into their teacher cert. programs. A few years ago I spoke with a rep. from a state school who said their teaching internship class had less than 10 people in it. Unless things change we’re less than a generation away from importing teachers from overseas.

 

[Secret Asian Man]

Is it though? The cost to get an art history degree is the cost - it doesn't fluctuate because of demand (only by school).

the pay fluxuates by demand. If everyone wanted your "art", whatever that is, you'd make more. Now, Gwyneth Paltrow was born into the industry and had a trust fund allowing her to take those chances. A kid with a great voice and parents struggling from paycheck to paycheck has a different set of issues. And for every GP, is a ton of kids waiting tables in LA to make ends meet (or dancing with a pole, which has a much greater law of supply and demand)

 

[BBrown]

Very true. And what about Art History or sociology majors. Parents aren't doing their job by helping kids make good decisions. Parents let their kids drift into college, spending 4 years partying, and then being ruined for the next 40 years with backbreaking debt and a minimum wage job. The kids should be allowed to sue their parents for malfeasance.

There is nothing wrong with Art History Majors or Sociology Majors or Lit Majors as long as they are aware that they will not be making a lot of money to pay back their loans and I don't want to hear them crying about it. I was contemplating an Art History degree, as it is I had about 13 credits of it, I knew at the time 1981 that my options were very limited so I changed to something Art related, Graphic Design.
I make a nice living today doing it but I would and do caution everyone who asks me about it. The same bang for the buck does not exist today. Meaning I wasn't in massive dept when I graduated and was able to pay it off.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

the pay fluxuates by demand. If everyone wanted your "art", whatever that is, you'd make more. Now, Gwyneth Paltrow was born into the industry and had a trust fund allowing her to take those chances. A kid with a great voice and parents struggling from paycheck to paycheck has a different set of issues.

But an 'art history' major isn't the same as being an 'artist'. Art history majors are likely to research, write, lecture, teach, consult, or work as a museum curator. Maybe they're artists; dunno.

You're right about Paltrow - when one has the luxury to not have to earn a living with a formal education, you can study what you want (noting she went to UC Santa Barbara to study anthropology before dropping out to be an actress). I'd add that her French fluency, which she likely learned in prep school, would be more marketable than an anthropology degree (again noting the foundation of an anthropology degree is going to be the ability to research, write, draw conclusions, etc. - all of which are marketable attributes for nearly any profession).

 

[diontechristmas]

And that’s where the PASSHE schools began - as teacher colleges. Then somewhere over the decades they ballooned into their current state and are now struggling to even get people into their teacher cert. programs. A few years ago I spoke with a rep. from a state school who said their teaching internship class had less than 10 people in it. Unless things change we’re less than a generation away from importing teachers from overseas.

Yup, teaching programs are way down. Around 10 years ago it was nearly impossible to get a solid teaching job in many parts of PA , and many prospective teachers simply choose another major. My wife works at a good suburban school district that is one of the better paying and most desirable to work in the area. They hired very few teachers for a few years, and virtually nobody right out of school. Most new hires were 26-27 years old and had to work as an associate or charter school teacher for a few years. Only in the last year or two had the district once again started hiring kids fresh out of school.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

You make a lot of good points, Kiber. I think a root cause of this problem is either non-existent or weak fathers. When I was a senior in HS I decided that I was going to go to Franklin and Marshall to study political science. I decided this because I wanted to be John Kennedy - handsome, pretty wife, powerful, etc. One night at dinner my Dad looked at me and said, "You are going to Penn State and you are going to study engineering." That was the end of it. What my Dad said was non-negotiable. I did what he said and I think it was the right decision. I don't think that happens much these days.

That's laughable but I shouldn't expect anything else coming from you.

The root cause of the problem is easy money, backed by the government, which leads to bloat in higher education (both in terms of tuition/facilities cost and worthless degree programs) coupled with the pervasive attitude that a college degree guarantees a good life.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

That's laughable but I shouldn't expect anything else coming from you.

The root cause of the problem is easy money, backed by the government, which leads to bloat in higher education (both in terms of tuition/facilities cost and worthless degree programs) coupled with the pervasive attitude that a college degree guarantees a good life.

In my own anecdotal experience being a public school teacher appears to provide a really good quality of living. I have relatives who are teachers in Bucks County. One is a music teacher; the other teaches math (and not in 'top' school districts). They make an excellent living, have summers off, a large house with a huge yard and pool, and are looking forward to a retirement with something like an 80% pension. My MIL is a retired Philadelphia school teacher and pays almost nothing for health care. The one issue is the uncertainty that comes with school budgets, but those seem to pass for the most part.

 

[lein]

Repairing refrigerators?

Beats the career choices a degree in Women's Studies provides and doesn't come with a ridiculous debt

 

[BBrown]

But an 'art history' major isn't the same as being an 'artist'. Art history majors are likely to research, write, lecture, teach, consult, or work as a museum curator. Maybe they're artists; dunno.

You're right about Paltrow - when one has the luxury to not have to earn a living with a formal education, you can study what you want (noting she went to UC Santa Barbara to study anthropology before dropping out to be an actress). I'd add that her French fluency, which she likely learned in prep school, would be more marketable than an anthropology degree (again noting the foundation of an anthropology degree is going to be the ability to research, write, draw conclusions, etc. - all of which are marketable attributes for nearly any profession).

In my case I was.

 

[Judge Smails]

I like everyone on here just saying, "Well, guess they don't go to college" instead of trying to change the ridiculous American system to look like most of our 1st world peers that have extremely low cost or free college for their citizens.

Of course, everyone under the sun says "How will we pay for it??!!" which is never asked for the military spending that uses most of our budget.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

In my own anecdotal experience being a public school teacher appears to provide a really good quality of living. I have relatives who are teachers in Bucks County. One is a music teacher; the other teaches math (and not in 'top' school districts). They make an excellent living, have summers off, a large house with a huge yard and pool, and are looking forward to a retirement with something like an 80% pension. My MIL is a retired Philadelphia school teacher and pays almost nothing for health care. The one issue is the uncertainty that comes with school budgets, but those seem to pass for the most part.

It's heavily dependent on where you live. You're fortunate--a lot of other states' teachers struggle to put food on the table and/or have second jobs.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

It's heavily dependent on where you live. You're fortunate--a lot of other states' teachers struggle to put food on the table and/or have second jobs.

I mean, I'm not a teacher. They are. But, point taken.

 

[Lion Son/Husband/Father]

Hopefully people have learned that "______ for all" is never a good idea. I believe it was the HUD director in the early 2000s that felt everyone should be able to buy their own house!? How did that work out? You forget about all the people who make a living off of the rental market (landlords, building managers, leasing agents, etc). If everyone went to college, who would work on cars, HVAC systems, plumbing and construction since I don't believe those are majors?!

I knew this was a problem when touring UNF with my younger daughter and they told us about the lazy river in one of their two dorm complexes. FSU had a huge rock-climbing wall and an entire building just for women's volleyball. Seriously?

I would have smoked bags of herb on that river.

 

[psufan1999797]

As the parent of a high school senior going through this, I can confirm that you are correct. But why is that? Do they count on the rich folks to pay the full price so that schmucks like me can pay the reduced price? The price just seems made up because, as you say, seemingly no one pays that amount.

Yes, this is correct. Rich folks generally do pay sticker price. That is figured into the yield and admissions process to optimize revenues. My son received a whopping $700 aid package from Lehigh. I was wondering why they even bothered to send the paperwork. Lafayette offered a 50% scholarship, resulting in a COA of less than the cost of PSU out of state.

Schools aren't even offering multiple student discounts. I have a friend paying list price for 2 of his kids at Villanova.

 

[Lion Son/Husband/Father]

FWIW:

The average student at many private universities - like Lehigh - pays LESS in tuition than the average student at UP..... once you figure in the amount of Aid/Scholarship $ provided by the University:

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/pennsylvania/lehigh-university/price/

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-state-university-main-campus/price/

(So, Lehigh and PSU are basically the same net cost - for the average student..... Lehigh being a bit less for students coming from "modest" means, a bit more for students of wealthy parents)


One of the great misperceptions regarding college costs is that "private" Universities have higher costs.
Some do.... many (most?) do not - - - - - because what they do is have very high "sticker prices" - but provide HUGE discounts off of that sticker price for the vast majority of students.
Very few students at most private universities pay anything close to the sticker price.

I will absolutely report back on his nut. She's certainly qualified for some cash. A real smarty pants.

 

[maxxedout]

The reality is that there is a significant proportion of students graduating who will never repay their student loans because the only jobs they can get are low paying.
Many of them would be better off repairing refrigerators at least in financial terms.

what a ****ing elitist viewpoint. Maybe you’d be better off repairing refrigerators.

 

[Lion Son/Husband/Father]

This isn't elitist, it's true.

 

[maxxedout]

Yes, this is correct. Rich folks generally do pay sticker price. That is figured into the yield and admissions process to optimize revenues. My son received a whopping $700 aid package from Lehigh. I was wondering why they even bothered to send the paperwork. Lafayette offered a 50% scholarship, resulting in a COA of less than the cost of PSU out of state.

Schools aren't even offering multiple student discounts. I have a friend paying list price for 2 of his kids at Villanova.

that’s the way it should be. Need-based aid. It’s there in the name. It’s the social structure we are a part of. It’s the same social structure that allowed me to have upward mobility — no sense in complaining now that I have to pay for it.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

I mean, I'm not a teacher. They are. But, point taken.

FWIW, here are (according to NEA) average teacher starting salaries by state:

http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

The data is a bit old and I'm assuming things haven't drastically changed since 2017-18.

A lot start in the low- to mid-$30s per year, which depending on debt burden (hence my response to Lemon Ears), isn't enough to live. When you factor in unpaid hours of work outside the classroom, it's really hard to have a second source of income let alone raise a family. Especially if one lives in a high tax state and/or high COL area.

 

[katchthis]

Just my opinion, but I believe somewhere along the way going to college changed from "going to college to get a job", to "going to college for "fun" and to stay in school".

Just as an example. I graduated HS in 82 and wanted to attend college. My family was lower-middle class so going to college was a stretch for the family. My parents wanted to know things like "what was my major", "how many jobs could I get with my major", "what type of jobs I'd get with my major", and "once I graduated, would having a degree in my major help me land a good job". My parents were very influential in the major I chose. I ended with a degree in Finance and minor in Accounting. The only other choice they were going to approve was an engineering degree. My parents saw Finance, Accounting or Engineering as worthwhile investments to make so 4 years later I could be a wage earner.

Fast forward to the early 2000s. My sisters kid graduated HS and wanted to attend college. He was not sure of his major and my sister & her husband did not push him on a degree. He chose Psychology because it sounded fun, and "nothing else" appealed to him. During his 4 years of under-grad we told both my sister & my nephew that having a 4-year degree in Psychology was not going to get him a good paying job. With that degree he needed to go for a masters or even doctorate. A 4-year degree in Psychology was going to get him a $25,000/year social services job.......... Sure enough that happened. He ended up getting a social services job. Worked that a few years and decided to go back to college. This time he decided on "Film". We advised him that if he was going for "Film" he needed to go out to CA and go to a USC or UCLA that had Film programs that would set him up in the business. He stayed in PA and went another 4 years to a PA college for Film......... Again, that got him no real job. He went to college for 8 years. Got 2 majors. Had no real plans. Was not advised that those 4/8 years of college should be used to get a job. He is in big time student debt. And not working in either Psych or Film.

I believe this is the type of crap we need to stop.

“Well intended” government loans eventually evolved into a screw the pooch mentality . The pooch was the debt holder on the education without a financial path out of the fiscal hole.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

FWIW, here are (according to NEA) average teacher starting salaries by state:

http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

The data is a bit old and I'm assuming things haven't drastically changed since 2017-18.

A lot start in the low- to mid-$30s per year, which depending on debt burden (hence my response to Lemon Ears), isn't enough to live. When you factor in unpaid hours of work outside the classroom, it's really hard to have a second source of income let alone raise a family. Especially if one lives in a high tax state and/or high COL area.

I do know their salary is helped by having advanced degrees; as in, *any* advanced degree guarantees more salary. I think the policy has since changed to 'an advanced degree within your area of teaching expertise' to qualify for the extra salary.

 

[rigi11]

As a free market enthusiast I say let the market determine if a college stays open. Some of these overpriced Administrators and professors should start seeking to put their expertise at use in the private sector.

Close Cheyney. They only have a couple hundred students

 

[rigi11]

“Well intended” government loans eventually evolved into a screw the pooch mentality . The pooch was the debt holder on the education without a financial path out of the fiscal hole.

Eliminate gov loans. Let the colleges make the loans.