Yes you do know what went on in that shower that night. JS was showering with a kid after working out as part of 2nd Mile Friends Fitness program. No one has ever claimed they were sexually assaulted in that shower that night. Mike's words to his father moments after the shower incident were that he didn't see a sex act. John said it for Mike in his testimony. Anything Mike claims/testified to after that discussion with his dad moments after the shower incident that claims he saw a sex act is a LIE.
The Jerry Sandusky Case: What Really Happened in Penn State’s Locker Room?
- Thread starter francofan
- Start date
Yes you do know what went on in that shower that night. JS was showering with a kid after working out as part of 2nd Mile Friends Fitness program. No one has ever claimed they were sexually assaulted in that shower that night. Mike's words to his father moments after the shower incident were that he didn't see a sex act. John said it for Mike in his testimony. Anything Mike claims/testified to after that discussion with his dad moments after the shower incident that claims he saw a sex act is a LIE.
I'll take a stab at this one.
Penn State and Joe Paterno's reputations are in the toilet because the prevailing narrative is that Mike told Joe, Tim Curley, and Gary Shultz that Jerry was diddling a kid in the shower and that they did nothing about it. Would this be the huge issue that it is if the prevailing narrative was NOT that Mike saw Jerry assaulting a kid in the shower, but rather that he just saw Jerry in the shower with a kid? I think that would have made a huge difference in how everything went down. And the preponderance of the evidence indicates that Mike did NOT see an assault in the shower. That is why this is important.
If Mike didn't really see an assault in the shower, and only reported to Joe, Tim and Gary that he saw Jerry in the shower with a kid, wouldn't it make sense that Joe, Tim, and Gary weren't rushing to call the police, but rather were looking at how to address the situation in house? (Yes) Would Tim, Gary, and Graham have been charged with anything? (No) That is why what Mike saw and what Mike said is a big deal.
Dranov & McQ Sr should have been indicted along with the others. Child Endangerment. If the PSU admins failed, then they did, too.
TRANSCRIPTS....which "transcripts" do you want. Truth has a way of showing itself by ACTION. If you take each one on MM's "testimonies" none of his actions match what he did. His ACTIONS voided his own testimony!!!
Now....lets look at those people who he DIRECTLY TOLD about what he saw in the PSU showers in 2001. Both Dranov and Mike's father CONFIRMED in multiple testimonies that a "sexual component" was NOT what MM told them!! If it was, then there would have been a CRIMINAL ELEMENT to what MM saw and ACTION would have been taken by one or both of them. REMEMBER...they BOTH stated emphatically that there was nothing concrete that was observed.
Now TODAY...2011+ MM has introduced the "sexual" term into his sighting. Of course, this change in "emphasis" could not have been introduced because he may have been "reminded" by those State of PA persons interviewed him that they knew of his "photo swapping" and gambling issues. This surely would not be a motive for "embellishing" what COULD have happened in 2001. IF something in hos 2001 description changed....what harm? After all...who would know???
The only first hand witness was MM...Just because his actions in 2001 and his description to MULTIPLE persons ruled out seeing anything criminal ....hey, The OAG and Linda Kelly, Frank Noonan, Frank Fina are all honorable(???) people....so what if this group took the "worst case " sighting (from at least 3 reported vesrions) from MM and then took "artistic license" with this testimony and turned it into "SODOMY with a 10 year old". ... not much different from what MM's actions in 2001 proved actually happened ?.... RIGHT!!!
Grow up - you are "wishing" an end result that was and is an abuse of the Legal system so as to hide OTHER CRIMES --- Are you happy with promoting hidden crimes so that you personal ego can be stroked??? That's what your doing by supporting a testimony that has been CONFIRMED to be suspect - most likely an externally created LIE!!!! Remember - the 2001 "Victim" confirmed "nothing happened" in 2001. This all supports actions taken in 2001 - not the "Story" created in 2011 and the "evidence" you continue to spew!!
Charging others with Child Sex Crimes as a means of hiding other crimes has been around forever - It is also something that has been linked to other "suspicious" handling by PA government in similar accusations/crimes in the past. Check Milton Hershey School Sex Scandal and "Kids for Cash".
THE SIMPLE QUESTION.....So you righteously support the "legal kill at all costs" of anyone ACCUSED of child crimes no matter how many "questionable" legal issues are involved.....YET you ACTIVELY SUPPORT those same kinds crimes if they are sanctioned by rouge PA government actions and then professionally covered-up.
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I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say @kevina001. The reputations of Penn State, Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Tim Curley, and Gary Schultz are in the toilet because of the prevailing narrative.
Not only that; if the prevailing narrative is wrong which IMO it is, then the grand jury presentment was false, the Freeh report is a farce, Jerry Sandusky did not get a fair trial, and Penn State is not culpable for any of the damages that have resulted from the fiasco/scandal with the exception of the negligance due to the actions of the BOT.
Regardless of whether anyone believes that sandusky is guilty or innocent, the only way Paterno's reputation and legacy are ever going to have a chance to be redeemed is if some how sandusky were to be exonerated. I believe the damage is to extensive at this point to redeem Paterno's reputation and legacy. I have come around now in believing that Ziegler is 100% correct on this point.
More importantly.....there is motive for creating this abuse of PA justice - the motive include hiding criminal political dealings, unsavory business associations and protecting politically elite personalities. This is the most obvious reason why a LEGALLY MANIPULATED - publicly promoted, Penn State "Criminal Football" image has been created.
However, I believe that ENGINEERED into this crime was another, slightly less obvious criminal component.... the targeted THEFT of more than $200M of University funds. This stolen money was "facilitated" by the established corrupt collusion of political elites who created this "Sports Scandal" and who needed new and very deep pockets. The publicly untraceable money pool created by the "Scandal" was required so that massive amounts of payback money could reward political favors - both now and in the past!!!
The Crime of the Century has been an "inside job" and, is NOT the "Story" the public has been led to believe.....In fact, IT DOES NOT involve Jerry Sandusky!!! Look beyond that sham of a "trial" and see who could "influence" the legal investigation/evidence/processes needed to open up the "Bank of PSU" for plunder. I think you will find the same group of names we thought suspicious 5 years ago!!
I don't disagree with you at all! Fair and good post. We can not assume Joe could have gotten all of the info needed from MM to make a perfect decision. MM may be lying for all we know. But just about everyone in America including a jury of his peers understands that there were crimes going on regarding Sandusky. Those crimes were not defined by the day MM claimed to see something. MM did not commit those crimes over years and years. Scumbag Sandusky did. Detroit LB Levy made a general assessment being reported today that puts the blame at Joe's doorstep, which is ridiculous. Levy's feelings probably have very little to do with the one day MM claimed to see something and Joe apparently didn't do enough. It probably has to do with the blind eye from many that left many kids vulnerable to scumbag Sandusky. My negative emotions are pointed directly at the monster responsible for damaging Penn St and basically ruining Joe's reputation. Those arguing for Sandusky's innocence will always seem wrong and misguided to me. As for dragging the MM event further along I just don't see where it makes a big impact. People believe what they believe and most National perspectives do not center on the one event with MM. My travels tell me National perspective centers on the long period of tolerance and neglect that appears to have occurred. This being true or false and the entire media narrative in opinion pools has long been decided.
Kevin assume one thing just for discussion. Assume the MM event literally never happened. Does NCAA change any of their actions? Does BOT change anything they Did? Does Penn St posturing regarding blame change? Does Penn St pay victims any less? Does the world view Penn St and/or Joe any differently? The answer to all those questions(and many more) are probably no.
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I couldn't disagree more. Joe's reputation was never tied to Jerry's guilt or innocence. The evidence in the Freeh report proves Joe didn't do anything wrong. The same evidence that Freeh used to crucify Joe, exonerates him. It's being interpreted incorrectly and that's easily proven. I have total confidence that between Spanier's suit against Freeh and the Paterno family's suit against the NCAA/PSU, the truth will be revealed.
JZ might be right about Jerry, but he's as wrong in believing Joe's reputation hangs on Jerry's innocence as he was about Trump.
Not sure most of the country agrees with you. For giggles why do you think most of the country looks down on how Joe handled the Sandusky situation? I'm thinking most people find it impossible to believe he knew nothing about his best friend and closest coaching relationship over multiple decades. What's your perspective. Give me one reason for me to stop hating Sandusky for ruining Joe's reputation and legacy.
best friend?
What difference does it make what most of the country thinks? Most of the country thinks that Mike McQueary witnessed an anal rape in the Lasch locker room shower, that the Freeh report is factual, and that Sandusky received a fair trial.
I have to vehemently disagree. I believe the answer to just about every question in your last paragraph is a resounding YES.
I disagree with this for the most part. If the MM event never happened, there's no way the NCAA or BOT could pin this on Joe or Penn State. You would still have idiots in the media saying that Joe must have known and didn't do anything, but I'd like to think that notion would have never gone anywhere.
If you remember back to the first couple of days after the Sandusky arrest, Joe was actually getting GOOD press on this. He was noted as being cooperative with the investigation and truthful in his testimony. The thing that buried him was the mischaracterization of the MM incident in the Grand Jury Presentment as "anal rape", and the fact that it was reported that MM told Joe of said (fictitious) anal rape. It was all downhill from there.
Umm...are you completely oblivious to the fact that the MM incident is the lynch pin the OAG used to make this a PSU football issue and not an OAG/DPW/CC CYS/TSM issue?
Without MM's claim in 2010 that he was 99.9% sure JS was sodomozing V2 and reported it as such to all involved, there'd be no way for the OAG to place the blame on PSU since 1998 was investigated by everyone under the sun, MM's 01 report of inappropriate shower that made him uncomfortable (no less than 7 people testified that this is what was reported in 01- JM/Dranov/CSS/Joe/Jack Raykovitz) was forwarded to the child care experts and mandatory reporters at TSM, and the supposed janitor V8 incident was never reported up the chain, etc.
MM's bullshit revisionist history story to the OAG in 2010 was the only hope the OAG had to deflect the blame towards PSU FB and for whatever reason MM played along thus screwing over every person who had contemporaneous knowledge of the 01 incident for "not doing more".
You kind of lose it with best friend talk as that was not the case. It's bigger than MM or Joe and neither one put Jerry in jail. The victims testifying did that. You're right to hate Jerry although only the sickest of humans do what he did. He's not really even human to be honest.
Most of the country doesn't give a damn about McQueary, Sandusky or Paterno. Most of the country is probably focused on things that don't revolve around State College.
So it doesn't make any difference what the rest of the country thinks. It isn't some national crisis just because it consumes your life.
Shut up. Thanks in advance.
Apparently, someone left the lid off the top of the Idiot Box today - - - and we got Nit16 running loose
I'll play. < zips up flamesuit >
Tom Corbett was using the power of a grand jury as a weapon to take out political enemies. He used it to try to assassinate Dr. Spanier. However, Corbett was stupid in using the grand jury and its power to ascend to the Governor's Office.
Frank Fina was Corbett's hand-picked gunslinger using the power of a grand jury for other purposes, and he allowed Joe Paterno to be named in Linda Kelly's grand jury presentment - which was not normal protocol. Obviously, this was so John Surma could step up and ax Joe.
I think we have way too many Drunk Toddlers With Loaded Handguns in this saga - and to be honest, there wasn't a damned thing Penn State could have done about it - who would expect your AG to target your university President and help a Trustee with a personal vendetta? Harrisburg is corrupt and that singular lie of "anal rape in a Penn State shower" has cost not only the commonwealth, but public and private citizens hundreds of millions of dollars, not to mention destroyed lives, legacies and reputations.
Our Office of Attorney General has now shut down any talk of investigating Second Mile. Hmm...now why would they do that? What could possibly be flowing thru $econd Mile that would have any political blowback? Might want to ask Jake Corman that.
The case against the PSU 3 is a shit sandwich and Beemer knows it. The OAG is stepping on the accelerator only because they've committed themselves to it. I hope those F*ckers pull a Thelma & Louise over it.
I truly hope Auditor General DePasquale finally nails these bastards.
Tom Corbett was using the power of a grand jury as a weapon to take out political enemies. He used it to try to assassinate Dr. Spanier. However, Corbett was stupid in using the grand jury and its power to ascend to the Governor's Office.
Frank Fina was Corbett's hand-picked gunslinger using the power of a grand jury for other purposes, and he allowed Joe Paterno to be named in Linda Kelly's grand jury presentment - which was not normal protocol. Obviously, this was so John Surma could step up and ax Joe.
I think we have way too many Drunk Toddlers With Loaded Handguns in this saga - and to be honest, there wasn't a damned thing Penn State could have done about it - who would expect your AG to target your university President and help a Trustee with a personal vendetta? Harrisburg is corrupt and that singular lie of "anal rape in a Penn State shower" has cost not only the commonwealth, but public and private citizens hundreds of millions of dollars, not to mention destroyed lives, legacies and reputations.
Our Office of Attorney General has now shut down any talk of investigating Second Mile. Hmm...now why would they do that? What could possibly be flowing thru $econd Mile that would have any political blowback? Might want to ask Jake Corman that.
The case against the PSU 3 is a shit sandwich and Beemer knows it. The OAG is stepping on the accelerator only because they've committed themselves to it. I hope those F*ckers pull a Thelma & Louise over it.
I truly hope Auditor General DePasquale finally nails these bastards.
I think most consider Sandusky a child rapist and hold Penn St leadership responsible for time lapsed. That is where I believe there is a huge injustice that sticks Sandusky's actions and crimes around the University's throat.
The OAG obviously used the MM event for their narrative, which was way over the top, but they would have come to same conclusion because once it was obvious Sandusky was raping kids the witch hunt was on. I mean I'm not presenting anything new or earth shattering. My basic point was that some are obsessed with MM and I just think he isn't the reason why Penn St has a National perception problem, if we even have one.
Sandusky and the length of time it took leadership to react to him is the issue. Most also may consider the BOT throwing Joe and the University under the bus as a sign of guilt for everyone involved. That's where most outsiders focus their opinions IMO.
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There was no other situation with anything close to an eyewitness.
You are speaking about the Second Mile here, right? We are all waiting for the Second Mile leadership to be held accountable. Every person/victim has one unique link: TSM!
We established a long time ago that it was Tom Corbett & Frank Fina's intent to anchor this story on Penn State for political purposes. It wasn't because of their concern for "the children" - because if it were, Second Mile leadership would have been investigated, along with CYS and other licensed child welfare professionals.
That never happened.
The "rape" narrative is a product of the OAG, and I have to wonder if Patrick Blessington had a hand in that. Rape is a very powerful word, and I am of the opinion that a guy like Frank Fina - who had such a hard core pornography problem and is so prurient - did not consider the implications of how that would play out. It might have worked if Fina was targeting political players in Harrisburg that the nation couldn't give a flip about - but once you apply the word "rape" to a squeaky clean institution and the sports media uses the Paterno name as fuel - well, a shitstorm happens.
Our own Office of Attorney General is why "we" have a national perception problem.
Who would have thought that the two forces propelling the "shower incident" had personal sexual obsessions. Fina with his trophy stash of porn at work and Mike pulling an Anthony Weiner.
"It was a calculated risk" - Tom Corbett
Your comment is another example of how MISINFORMATION which was engineered into this illusion feeds a narrative that, with actual facts, is absurd!
Sandusky was ANYTHING but a close friend of Paternos. FACT!!!
I guess you think that is the case because they worked together for so long, but by all accounts Joe didn't exactly pal around with him. It was quite the opposite and even more so later on in their careers. I don't know how much if any real interaction Joe had with Jerry once Joe told him he wasn't ever going to he HC at PSU. You saying they were close friends doesn't make it so.
Again there are a group of PSU fans that still want PSU cleared and their only hope is MM's story being discounted or Jerry being found innocent. Jerry isn't getting out of prison as too many victims have testified against him...that pretty much trumps everything. How they got there via MM is irrelevant for the most part as the victims testifying is where the charges came from. It's relevant to people here, but the court system doesn't care about the collateral damage, they care about putting a known monster in prison. I hate that PSU was dragged through the mud due to that sick SOB and failed PSU leadership at the time, but I don't see some magic bullet coming like some here are holding out hope for.
Everything you say concerning the entire Sandusky-Penn State situation is 100% TRUE. If we want the truth...just re-read this post above.
Now if we want more details on what is a CRIMINAL COLLUSION and if we want to STOP this from happening...then get the Feds to do their job and weed out the snakes that control the State of PA and its courts!!! The actual VICTIMS here are in the Tens of thousands - they are the forgotten VICTIMS here are those who have gone through the courts at lower levels and have had their "justice" abused by the same collusive actions we with this....the State of Pennsylvania Sex Scandal.
Personally, I do not believe ONE SINGLE STATEMENT made by the OAG about the entire Sandusky Presentment, trail and verdict!! The entire evidence pool used in this sham is TAINTED. The "under oath" testimony used to charge and convict Sandusky is suspect in so many areas it is ABSURD. In fact, the most accurate description of this entire case is ...IT IS ABSURD - and it is a crime". This entire criminal illusion was made possible by the Power of the State creating AND PROMOTING the "Guilty until proven innocent" public image. The result is a theft of the real University's identity and A QUARTER OF A BILLION $$$$ in funds.
Just as important...TSM - a free ride for 5+ years...destroying evidence while under the eyes of PA government. Tell me this is NOT a crime 10X worse than what the public has been deceived to believe!!!
FINALLY...as far as our BOT is concerned...those BOT "leaders" who have been directing the actions of the LEGAL ENTITY - Penn State University - they are nothing but coordinated criminals themselves and I hope they rot in jail for the next 30 years next to the political crooks who started all this.
JUSTICE needs to be restored to the State of Pennsylvania!
The reason most of the country doesn't agree with me is because there is nothing out there compelling the press to print the truth. I still have faith that the Paterno suit against the NCAA/PSU and the Spanier suit against Louis Freeh will force a change in the narrative.
As others have pointed out, if you think Joe and Jerry were best buds, you're not getting your information from sources interested in the truth.
I'm not really interested in whether you or anyone else hates Sandusky. I do care that you seem to think the McQueary incident isn't at the forefront of the country's perception about Joe. I think the direct answer to your question is that when Linda Kelly had her presser with huge pictures of Tim Curley and Gary Schultz along side of Jerry, and the grand jury presentment erroneously suggested that Mike saw and reported "anal intercourse" to Joe and the others the narrative was established. Add Frank Noonan's completely unprofessional diatribe in which he questioned whether Joe met his moral obligation and here we are.
If you want to hate somebody, hate Tom Corbett. It was Corbett who pulled Kelly's and Noonan's strings. And it was Corbett who drove the BOT into panic mode.
A bombshell development in Sandusky's PCRA petition. Judge Cleland has recused himself. In Cleland's filing it seems clear that he was going to rule against a new trial, so IMO this is good news for Sandusky's defense.
http://co.centre.pa.us/centreco/media/upload/SANDUSKY OPINION AND ORDER FILED NOVEMBER 18 2016.pdf
http://co.centre.pa.us/centreco/media/upload/SANDUSKY OPINION AND ORDER FILED NOVEMBER 18 2016.pdf
The funniest thing about that line is the ACTUAL victim who Jerry molested doesn't count...or in this case...8 who testified. Maybe it was another guy who looked like him...yeah that must be it. No eye witnesses....well except for the people he actually molested. Somehow in this warped world...they don't count.
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