True but the internet is exactly why these old timers ( God I hate typing that ) should be included. It isn't hard to determine who might be worthy.
You are right about Zain....probably the biggest single win.
Top Ten Penn State Wrestlers
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You are right about Zain....probably the biggest single win.
Complete agreed that earlier wrestlers should be included. Not defending the author -- he took a lazy out.
No probably about Zain's win over Stieber -- there are only four 4x champs in history (so far), and he beat one of them. Stieber also later became a senior world champ.
Offhand, next best win in PSU history was Jim Vollrath beating 3x champ Dieringer. At least tied for next best win.
Cenzo’s wins over IMar are great, too. Remember, Cenzo stopped a guy from being 4-timer. Zain failed at that task. And IMar may yet also become senior world champ. Edit: And IMar himself was a quality guy who stopped a guy (Nolf) from being 4-timer.
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AND Nolf stopped Mighty Micah from becoming a 1xer.
Different criteria brings about different lists. Retherford, Taylor, Ruth and Bo have all been listed as #1 by someone in this thread. I'll add Jason Nolf, and make them 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, and 1e, they are that close.
Retherford is the only one that did not benefit from a redshirt year in his true freshman campaign. He's the only one of the five that did that.
Taylor "only" has two National Championships, the other four wrestlers have three each.
Taylor, Nickal, and Nolf are the only ones that were four-time finalists. Zain has a 5th place finish, and Ruth has a 3rd place finish.
All five wrestlers have three career losses, which I find very interesting. The number of wins are different as wrestlers had more matches during the Taylor/Ruth years.
Nolf is the only one to win a championship on one leg for the tourney, though Ruth gets credit for coming back to place 3rd after an injury during the tourney.
As far as career NCAA Points, all-time and all teams; Taylor is 5th (99 pts), Nolf is 7th (98 pts), Nickal is 8th (95.5 pts), Ruth is 10th (94.5 pts), and Retherford is 11th (93.5 pts). So Penn State has 5 of the top 11 right now. Joseph and Hall would have surely been top-20 on this list.
I do believe that McCoy, Megaludis, Prescott, Martin, Hall, Joseph, Matter and others belong near the top of any all-time Penn State list.
Someone else mentioned the difference in competition. Two of Retherford's losses were to Stieber, two of Taylor's losses were to Dake. I believe this should be a consideration, but it gets messy when one starts using this level of detail to differentiate careers.
Retherford is the only one that did not benefit from a redshirt year in his true freshman campaign. He's the only one of the five that did that.
Taylor "only" has two National Championships, the other four wrestlers have three each.
Taylor, Nickal, and Nolf are the only ones that were four-time finalists. Zain has a 5th place finish, and Ruth has a 3rd place finish.
All five wrestlers have three career losses, which I find very interesting. The number of wins are different as wrestlers had more matches during the Taylor/Ruth years.
Nolf is the only one to win a championship on one leg for the tourney, though Ruth gets credit for coming back to place 3rd after an injury during the tourney.
As far as career NCAA Points, all-time and all teams; Taylor is 5th (99 pts), Nolf is 7th (98 pts), Nickal is 8th (95.5 pts), Ruth is 10th (94.5 pts), and Retherford is 11th (93.5 pts). So Penn State has 5 of the top 11 right now. Joseph and Hall would have surely been top-20 on this list.
I do believe that McCoy, Megaludis, Prescott, Martin, Hall, Joseph, Matter and others belong near the top of any all-time Penn State list.
Someone else mentioned the difference in competition. Two of Retherford's losses were to Stieber, two of Taylor's losses were to Dake. I believe this should be a consideration, but it gets messy when one starts using this level of detail to differentiate careers.
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I thought Zain won that match due to the flu and long bus ride? You mean he was good as a true freshman?
I heard Stieber wasn't trying.I thought Zain won that match due to the flu and long bus ride? You mean he was good as a true freshman?
No, it was the average official.I thought Zain won that match due to the flu and long bus ride? You mean he was good as a true freshman?
Also remarkable, since 2016 Penn State wrestlers have won NCAA titles at every weight class.
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Difference is while sick Zain only wrestled NCAA runner-up Sorenson, and Stieber had to deal with Retherford.
Stieber likes average officials. Just ask JO.
My humble opinion. BO is the best we have seen in blue and white. One move going the other way and he is a four timer not to mention he took on dean who most thought was unbeatable going for his third and Bo continuously got better and dominated all competition. Hands down my pick for the best all time penn stater although.......I would love to have seen bo and ed ruth go at it one time on their primes
Ahead of 4x AA and NCAA Champ Nico, Molinaro, and Phil Davis?
Joseph at number 8 needs to be ahead of Wright #8 and Hall #7 and McCoy #6.
Joseph beating 2x IMAR twice in the finals plus he's a 3 time finalist.
For me DT is behind the 3 time champs, Nolf, Ruth, Nickel, and Zain.
Nickel #1 being a finalist at 174, 184, and 197 makes him my number 1. Big10 champ at 174, 184, and 197
Zain #2
Ruth #3
Jason #4
Joseph beating 2x IMAR twice in the finals plus he's a 3 time finalist.
For me DT is behind the 3 time champs, Nolf, Ruth, Nickel, and Zain.
Nickel #1 being a finalist at 174, 184, and 197 makes him my number 1. Big10 champ at 174, 184, and 197
Zain #2
Ruth #3
Jason #4
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I was addressing the response that said Nico at number 10 ahead of Cassar. For me Cassar transforming his body to wrestle heavyweight and beat Stevenson twice is more impressive than Nico wrestling at 125 is whole career.
Nico and Cassar have something in common: neither placed lower than 3rd at nationals.
Nico did this 3 more times than Cassar did.
I would agree Zain's win was the greatest dual meet victory over the 2x Logan Steiber at the time. Zain later lost to Steiber at the Big10's and NCAA's and Steiber went on to get his 3rd championship. Zain redshirted the next year and Steiber became a 4 time champ if memory serves me. Also Steiber had 3 loses.
For me the greatest NCAA's tournament wins matter way way more than dual meets victories in Dec. The ones come to mind Bo pinning Martin, Joseph pinning IMAR preventing him from his 3rd championship, Cassar beating Stevenson at Big10's and NCAA's. Does Stevenson ever lose if not for Cassar? Does IMAR become a 4x champ if not for his two loses to Joseph at the NCAA's?
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Upon further reflection, Bo gets #1 for me because he was presented with a situation where he knew the team race was more or less on him winning and he responded with a pin utilizing one of the riskiest moves in the most dramatic fashion. Kind of an unfair tiebreaker you can argue since none of our all timers ever got that chance (every moment that tournament was pressure situation and Nolf was on one good leg) but still it adds to his legend and his speech that is cemented forever.
I guess that depends how much is "much". IMar's 1 1 2 2 isn't chopped liver. And he had winning records against the only 2 guys who beat him.
To add to my post above, using data as a basis...
The highest bonus-point wrestlers in PSU history, %-wise, are the five noted as 1a though 1e.
Taylor - 91.2%
Nolf - 86.6%
Nickal - 77.1%
Ruth - 75.9%
Retherford - 75.4%
The highest bonus-point wrestlers in PSU history, %-wise, are the five noted as 1a though 1e.
Taylor - 91.2%
Nolf - 86.6%
Nickal - 77.1%
Ruth - 75.9%
Retherford - 75.4%
Wow, how blessed to have that many great wrestlers! When you see that the elite only lost three matches in their career totally crazy! Then there's is this guy sitting in the coaching chair saying "oh my god you lost 3"
And Imar has three career losses to Dake’s four losses. Dake definitely one of the greatest ever, but Imar was pretty darn good too.
Before the internet era you had to go to Rec Hall and watch Penn State wrestling, travel to the various EIWA schools to watch PSU on the road, or wait for the Daily Collegian to come out the day after a PSU wresting match to find out how the wrestlers fared. In February of 1970 Andy Matter destroyed 2-time EIWA champ Jack Bentz of perennial eastern power Lehigh 14-5. Penn State fans fell in love with Andy because of his prowess and relentless offense from his feet. PSU fans had really never seen a wrestler with the moves that Andy used on his opponents and from that point on we knew we were watching someone special. Let's not forget that freshmen were not allowed to wrestle duals with the varsity in 1969, and Bill Koll elected not to allow Andy to wrestle at the NCAAs as a freshman. In 1970, #2 seed Andy was pinned in the quarterfinals by Mike Lightner of Oklahoma State, and at the time if you lost in the quarters you were eliminated from further wrestling and therefore unable to become an AA. Andy lost only 2 matches in his career and was the 1st 2-time NCAA champ in PSU history. And by the way, Andy beat Clarion's (future NCAA champ) Bill "Elbows" Simpson 15-0 in a match in 1971. Andy Matter should always be considered top ten in PSU wrestling history. Considered.
Nick and Roman finished bluewashing the weight classes. Now, just like painting the Golden Gate Bridge, the team can go and do it again.
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Nick and Roman finished bluewashing the weight classes. Now, just like painting the Golden Gate Bridge, the team can go and do it again.
Dayum, I wouldn't wish painting the GG for anyone! (Well, maybe if we kept Osama Bin dbag alive)
But is the average of (Dake + Bubba) as good as IMar? Or as good as healthy Mehki Lewis? 🤔 (The scary part is that the average might be that good.)
Anyhow, quality wins is more important than quality losses, in my opinion.
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There wasn't a bigger win than Bo pinning Martin in the finals. My top guy is still Taylor.
I believe Nick Suriano was on the 2016-17 team, that was a pretty darn good team too
Big whoop. He’s been doing that move since he was 6 😉
Taylor always gets credit because he as much as Cael started this.
The greatest win in PSU history? As far as individual dual victories Zain's win against eventual 4X champ Loggie Bear was a helluva an accomplishment. However, Bo has numbers 1 & 2. Pinning fellow one time champ Martin in the NCAA final to secure an individual and team championship in my opinion is number one. Number two is Bo's first championship denying Dean a third. Dean lost two matches in the NCAAs, to two separate PSU three timers.
The greatest win in PSU history? As far as individual dual victories Zain's win against eventual 4X champ Loggie Bear was a helluva an accomplishment. However, Bo has numbers 1 & 2. Pinning fellow one time champ Martin in the NCAA final to secure an individual and team championship in my opinion is number one. Number two is Bo's first championship denying Dean a third. Dean lost two matches in the NCAAs, to two separate PSU three timers.
While I don’t feel he belongs in the top 10, a quick hat tip to one of my favorites, Morgan McIntosh. In three years Morgan went 98-9 with 5 of those losses coming at the hands of J’Den Cox and Kyle Snyder (both of whom he also beat). If you dig deeper, Morgan had a lot of high quality (top 10) wins in an era when 197 was pretty loaded (Schiller, Huntley, Pfarr, Perry, Burak, Wolfe, studebaker, Haught, Brooks, etc).
Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic. I’m just a big MM fan. Same goes for Matt Brown.
Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic. I’m just a big MM fan. Same goes for Matt Brown.
Cassar and hall should not be on the list. We should start with 2 time winners on up. Who was the lightweight early eighties that had 2?
Of course I would have bill koll n the top ten as well!!
