VT-Ark call revisited.

[JR4PSU]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

So it should have been VT ball with the penalty that also happened. I think that would have put VT inside the 5 yd line. Don't remember exactly where they were on the field.

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

 

[psuro]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

So it should have been VT ball with the penalty that also happened. I think that would have put VT inside the 5 yd line. Don't remember exactly where they were on the field.

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

Ask them if they ever got a verbal whipping by Joe. Franklin is a church mouse compared to how Joe used to be.

 

[PrideoftheLion]

Wow, bad rep with officials, wonder what kind of reputation a clown like Harbaugh has with officials?

 

[ClarkstonMark]

My memory isn't great, but what was the penalty?
I am trying to understand how VT could have gotten the fumble recovery, yet also gotten the penalty enforced. Wouldn't they need to decline the penalty to get the fumble recovery? Or was it a personal foul?

 

[Erial_Lion]

My memory isn't great, but what was the penalty?
I am trying to understand how VT could have gotten the fumble recovery, yet also gotten the penalty enforced. Wouldn't they need to decline the penalty to get the fumble recovery? Or was it a personal foul?

It was a hold on the return.

 

[BoulderFish]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

First, thanks for checking with him, then posting his thoughts here.

With that said, I don't see how your colleague's POV (yes, I understand that he's an official) reconciles with the rules that were cited here the other day. The way that rule stated it, the "immediate recovery after the whistle" thing only applies if/when a team previously had possession and fumbled (which wasn't the case here -- And that's what complicated this play).

I would 100% agree that what your colleague said is the way it SHOULD work, but it sure doesn't look like that is accurate by the "letter of the law."

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

Hmmm.... That's strange, because while I know there's not a camera iso'd on the coaches that we can always look at (i.e. obviously we can't see everything), but it sure seems like many/most other coaches are complaining/whining to the line judges a lot more than Franklin. At least based on what the TV shows us.

In fact, one of my complaints about Franklin used to be that he seemed to just take bad calls (and no calls) laying down -- didn't voice his displeasure.

Weird.

 

[JR4PSU]

My memory isn't great, but what was the penalty?
I am trying to understand how VT could have gotten the fumble recovery, yet also gotten the penalty enforced. Wouldn't they need to decline the penalty to get the fumble recovery? Or was it a personal foul?

The penalty was against VT. Holding, I believe.

 

[Bob78]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

So it should have been VT ball with the penalty that also happened. I think that would have put VT inside the 5 yd line. Don't remember exactly where they were on the field.

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

JVP wore out his share of refs, and he was correct often enough that it gave way to replay. Seems to me that more coaches than not voice their opinions to the refs during the game. O'Brien sure did. I'm glad Franklin fights for the team.

Last spring, I was at one of the PSU practices. It was a controlled scrimmage, full pads, thud tackling. Refs were there - not the full complement, as I recall, but maybe 5 or so. Anyway, I was standing on the sidelines and the ref by me called a penalty of some sort. I thought the ref's call was correct (what do I know?), but Franklin actually got on the ref for it for about 4 or 5 seconds. This is a routine spring practice. I looked at the ref and smiled, he just kind of shrugged and went back to work.
To me, it's what coaches do, and in practically all sports. I'm sure the refs' training has heavy doses of how to handle, how to let it roll off, when to react, what the limits of response are, etc. They're human, but they need to be better than you and me at understanding and handling that stream of pressure during a game.

 

[JR4PSU]

Ask them if they ever got a verbal whipping by Joe. Franklin is a church mouse compared to how Joe used to be.

The crews are quite used to being verbally whipped for making a bad call. What they seem not to appreciate with Franklin is that he's constantly "whining" about "did you see that hold", "ah, come on, that guy pushed off", blah, blah, blah, blah. Apparently constantly throughout the game. Not just now and then.

Refs get this sort of thing from all coaches. It just seems Franklin is a bit more over the top than most, I guess.

 

[psuro]

The crews are quite used to being verbally whipped for making a bad call. What they seem not to appreciate with Franklin is that he's constantly "whining" about "did you see that hold", "ah, come on, that guy pushed off", blah, blah, blah, blah. Apparently constantly throughout the game. Not just now and then.

Don't know what to say to your friends. I would imagine all coaches do this, and not just Franklin.

 

[JR4PSU]

Don't know what to say to your friends. I would imagine all coaches do this, and not just Franklin.

Yes, they do. Which would mean Franklin is a bit more over the top with it than most. And my friend has told me plenty of stories about coaches around the country. And just a note, my friend has not been on the sidelines with Franklin, he is hearing this through the officiating grape vine. So take it for what it's worth.

 

[NittPicker]

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

My guess is the informal expectation among B1G refs is that the Penn State HC is expected to stand on the sideline, keep his mouth shut and accept any bad officiating which may negatively affect his team. Other coaches are allowed to act like infants on the sideline and that's perfectly alright.

 

[psu1969a]

The crews are quite used to being verbally whipped for making a bad call. What they seem not to appreciate with Franklin is that he's constantly "whining" about "did you see that hold", "ah, come on, that guy pushed off", blah, blah, blah, blah. Apparently constantly throughout the game. Not just now and then.

Refs get this sort of thing from all coaches. It just seems Franklin is a bit more over the top than most, I guess.

And how do you know what/how the Officials feel?

 

[JR4PSU]

And how do you know what/how the Officials feel?

By talking to an official.

 

[razpsu]

Harbaugh is much more restrained.

 

[demlion]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

So it should have been VT ball with the penalty that also happened. I think that would have put VT inside the 5 yd line. Don't remember exactly where they were on the field.

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

I could see how JF would be whining to the LJ a little. But does anyone actually believe we won't get F'ed on some calls when the score is close next year?

Stated another way, what would B1G refs do to us if the really hated us that is any worse than what they have already done? They are not admitting bias are they?

 

[JR4PSU]

I could see how JF would be whining to the LJ a little. But does anyone actually believe we won't get F'ed on some calls when the score is close next year?

Stated another way, what would B1G refs do to us if the really hated us that is any worse than what they have already done? They are not admitting bias are they?

I don't think anyone is suggesting bias. My take is simply that the B1G line judges don't particularly like Franklin's sideline personality and find him exhausting to deal with. Nothing more.

I think a recruit recently said something to the effect that "(Franklin) is a bit over the top, but it's all good". I think Franklin IS a bit over the top. Probably no less so on the sideline. And I personally like his excitement about everything.

 

[demlion]

I don't think anyone is suggesting bias. My take is simply that the B1G line judges don't particularly like Franklin's sideline personality and find him exhausting to deal with. Nothing more.

I think a recruit recently said something to the effect that "(Franklin) is a bit over the top, but it's all good". I think Franklin IS a bit over the top. Probably no less so on the sideline. And I personally like his excitement about everything.

Too bad there is no other way to communicate to the B!G refs how much we hate how this conference has treated us, on the field and off, for over 20 years.

 

[JmmyW]

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

The crews are quite used to being verbally whipped for making a bad call. What they seem not to appreciate with Franklin is that he's constantly "whining" about "did you see that hold", "ah, come on, that guy pushed off", blah, blah, blah, blah. Apparently constantly throughout the game. Not just now and then.

Refs get this sort of thing from all coaches. It just seems Franklin is a bit more over the top than most, I guess.

Yes, they do. Which would mean Franklin is a bit more over the top with it than most. And my friend has told me plenty of stories about coaches around the country. And just a note, my friend has not been on the sidelines with Franklin, he is hearing this through the officiating grape vine. So take it for what it's worth.

Franklin is developing a bad reputation with B1G officiating crews?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

I think the B1G officiating crews already have a horrible reputation with Franklin. How many more times will the B1G have to issue apologies for blown calls?


----- 9/28/2016

Just in: @bigten says "the call of Targeting should have been reversed by the Replay Official" on this play.

http://btn.com/2016/09/28/big-ten-responds-to-penn-state-michigan-targeting-ejection/

---- 10/27/2014

The conference released statements on the controversial OSU-PSU calls, and @BTNRickPizzo recaps it all.

http://btn.com/2014/10/27/video-big-ten-responds-to-controversial-ohio-state-penn-state-calls/

----- 10/29/2014, Josh Moyer, Conspiracy Theory: Are they taking Penn State down while boosting Ohio State up?
http://www.espn.com/blog/bigten/pos...-penn-state-down-while-boosting-ohio-state-up

O’Neill is the same official who worked the Penn State-Nebraska game in 2012, when the crew ruled tight end Matt Lehman did not cross the goal-line for a score. Here’s visual evidence to the contrary.
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...1e2-8637-0019bb2963f4/509f150b84507.image.jpg

But wait, there’s more proof that officials are clearly out to get Penn State. Remember the Penn State-Michigan game earlier this season? How about the Lions’ onside kick recovery, when tight end Jesse James was ruled offside and the ball was mistakenly given to the Wolverines? Does THIS look offside to you?

----- 11/12/2012, McGloin: 'We're not going to get that call ever' | Football | collegian.psu.edu
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/football/article_cbeb3851-a4d1-577d-9197-e32022feadf1.html

The senior quarterback was the first Penn State player to address the media after the team’s nine-point loss to Nebraska. Not surprisingly, the first question he was asked was about the controversial play in which Matt Lehman’s goal line stretch was ruled a fumble.

“We’re not going to get that call here. We’re not going to get that call ever, actually,” McGloin said. “No matter who the refs are, we’ll never get that call.”

McGloin was immediately asked why he thought that way but didn’t elaborate.

“Why do you think it is?” McGloin said. “That’s just the way it is.”

-----
Re: Penn State at No. 12 Wisconsin, 11/26/2011, L 7-45

10/27/2014
@Dev_Still71 Devon, John O'Neill has screwed Penn State vs OSU, Nebraska, Wisconsin. Is he the 1 who told you PSU was "lucky to be playing?"

 

[bjf1991]

Guys,

I mentioned previously that I would talk to my colleague at work that is an AAC official about the controversial replay call. It's funny, I walked into his office and he was on the phone with the head referee from his crew discussing that very call.

Bottom line, the correct call should have been VT recovery when the ball bounced into the guys hands JUST after the whistle was blown. Because it was an IMMEDIATE recovery after the whistle. In other words, it happened so fast after the whistle that the whistle could not have influenced the play or anyone's reaction so quickly. And that was the initial call on the field. But it was overturned by the replay booth.

So it should have been VT ball with the penalty that also happened. I think that would have put VT inside the 5 yd line. Don't remember exactly where they were on the field.

On a side note, this ref that I work with told me that Franklin is developing a bad reputation with the B1G officiating crews. They hate dealing with him on the sideline. Apparently he is constantly "whining" in the ear of the line judge throughout the game. Never stops. Personally, seeing how excitable Franklin is, I could see this being the case. He's a very emotional guy and is a little ball of energy. He's probably the line judge's worst nightmare during the game.

Which is exactly what I said at the time

https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threads/ten-minute-review-of-play-in-ark-vt-game.162032/

Which didn't need to be "verified" by anyone.......since it wasn't even a particularly difficult or odd situation


("Mea Culpa" and Apologies being accepted. Line forms to the left.......Boulder? JR4PSU? )

 

[bjf1991]

My memory isn't great, but what was the penalty?
I am trying to understand how VT could have gotten the fumble recovery, yet also gotten the penalty enforced. Wouldn't they need to decline the penalty to get the fumble recovery? Or was it a personal foul?

It was a hold on the return

Simple

Just as if the punt was returned .......mark off 10 yards from the point of possession
As one would on any other punt return

 

[ga.lion]

Yes, they do. Which would mean Franklin is a bit more over the top with it than most. And my friend has told me plenty of stories about coaches around the country. And just a note, my friend has not been on the sidelines with Franklin, he is hearing this through the officiating grape vine. So take it for what it's worth.

Surprising as the games I watched he seemed less in their face than Harbaugh and Urban..........

 

[psu00]

Wow, bad rep with officials, wonder what kind of reputation a clown like Harbaugh has with officials?

I was going to say if they had a problem with Franklin - how bad is it with Urban and Harbaugh?

 

[bjf1991]

I was going to say if they had a problem with Franklin - how bad is it with Urban and Harbaugh?

IIRC - this "info" came from an AAC official.

TTBOMK.....AAC officials have done two recent PSU games (there may be - probably are - a couple more)........PSU/UCF in Ireland, and the 2014 PSU/Temple game

Both of those games had the same AAC referee (not sure if they keep entire crews together or not)
Both of those games were HORRENDOUSLY officiated - much to PSU's detriment

If this guy's "info" is based on actions during those two games....it makes sense why he would relay the info he did
I can't imagine those crews did not fully merit "an earful".

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I'm sure the refs' training has heavy doses of how to handle, how to let it roll off, when to react, what the limits of response are, etc. They're human, but they need to be better than you and me at understanding and handling that stream of pressure during a game.

actually, far less training of the type you indicated than most would imagine. It's touched on, but 99% of the training is the rules, positioning, etc. Dealing with coaches is mentioned during training and refresher courses, but for the most part refs develop techniques for that on their own. Many refs can't figure out how to deal with the constant abuse, and walk away from reffing long before they get to the college level.

 

[john4psu]

I was going to say if they had a problem with Franklin - how bad is it with Urban and Harbaugh?

Urban and Harbaugh get the calls. They're the protected ones in the BIG. That's what makes it great when they face each other, one of them is going to lose.

 

[JR4PSU]

IIRC - this "info" came from an AAC official.

TTBOMK.....AAC officials have done two recent PSU games (there may be - probably are - a couple more)........PSU/UCF in Ireland, and the 2014 PSU/Temple game

Both of those games had the same AAC referee (not sure if they keep entire crews together or not)
Both of those games were HORRENDOUSLY officiated - much to PSU's detriment

If this guy's "info" is based on actions during those two games....it makes sense why he would relay the info he did
I can't imagine those crews did not fully merit "an earful".

"This guy's" info is based on what he is hearing from B1G officials. Nothing to do with AAC officials.

But seriously, I would take it all with a grain of salt. It is still only hearsay.

To be honest, I wish I hadn't relayed the info on this board. But alas, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[bjf1991]

"This guy's" info is based on what he is hearing from B1G officials. Nothing to do with AAC officials.

But seriously, I would take it all with a grain of salt. It is still only hearsay.

To be honest, I wish I hadn't relayed the info on this board. But alas, you can't take back what you already said.

I would too (a GIGANTIC grain)......though I don't think you made any Faux Pas in posting it


That's not to say that "some" refs might not have a problem w CJF (I expect just about all of them have had experiences with certain coaches that turn them off)........

or even that CJF may be one of the more yappy sideline guys (though, from what I have observed, he is no more "yappy" than most, less so than a lot of guys (Harbaugh?), more so than some others (Urby?))