Weekly Fleming/Shorter Post

[Texas Lion]

A friendly reminder from this past week:

Combined for 3 catches and 33 yards.

Sour Grapes? Probably! But the crap they both kind of talked about development of 5 star WR on their way makes me want to send a reminder each and every week that maybe the two of them just STINK.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Hey, if we have to put up with a weekly Levis thread, I’m all for a weekly WR primadonna thread

 

[PearlSUJam]

A friendly reminder from this past week:

Combined for 3 catches and 33 yards.

Sour Grapes? Probably! But the crap they both kind of talked about development of 5 star WR on their way makes me want to send a reminder each and every week that maybe the two of them just STINK.

Shorter also had a tackle.

 

[brupsu]

A friendly reminder from this past week:

Combined for 3 catches and 33 yards.

Sour Grapes? Probably! But the crap they both kind of talked about development of 5 star WR on their way makes me want to send a reminder each and every week that maybe the two of them just STINK.

Don’t know the details here but they are just kids and from what I’ve seen PSU is not hurting for receivers.

 

[psuro]

So, the focus is one guy who transferred after a couple of years and one guy who was never here?

Right now they own you.

 

[okinburg1]

Shorter also had a tackle.

If he had stayed at PSU do you think he'd be a converted D-back by now???

 

[tboyer]

Don’t know the details here but they are just kids and from what I’ve seen PSU is not hurting for receivers.

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.

It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

 

[Midnighter2]

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.

It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

Fleming saw one guy unhappy? Man - I'd look at Godson, Robinson, Hamler, Gesicki, Freiermuth and now even Johnson all having success in the NFL. Fleming was looking for a reason not to go to PSU - it happens.

 

[psuro]

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.

It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

Why blame them? Because someone is butt hurt that they chose to leave/not attend PSU. And for whatever reason, that person feels entitled to have them playing here. And since they are not, someone has to be blamed.

 

[PearlSUJam]

If he had stayed at PSU do you think he'd be a converted D-back by now???

He'd be at the Lyin' position. 😆

 

[KC-KS-Lion]

A friendly reminder from this past week:

Combined for 3 catches and 33 yards.

Sour Grapes? Probably! But the crap they both kind of talked about development of 5 star WR on their way makes me want to send a reminder each and every week that maybe the two of them just STINK.

I think both (Shorter, and the OSU WR) have off the charts natural ability and physical attributes, which may have over-shadowed their receiving skills.
How coachable each is or how responsible they feel for their development remains to be seen.
As far as Penn State, it looks like they have stabilized their WR coaching position (which was a concern their opponents may have taken advantage of). I would like to see them recruit and develop a bigger more physical WR. Historically, some opponents have neutralized their smaller WRs.
At the same time, I would hope they adjust their recruitment with unpolished and physically gifted WRs. Maybe they have tried, but the other side did not respond. How do you find the Allen Robinsons and Goodwins, and avoid the Shorters (Shorter Srs), etc....maybe it is not possible to be entirely avoid failure, it just seems to me (in hindsight) that they would have been in a better position the last few years if they had not engaged with these 2. They seemed to have recovered lately thanks to Dotson and Parker Washington.

 

[novaclassof90]

Don't worry out the guys who didn't work out, concentrate on the guys you have.

 

[ram2020]

I think both (Shorter, and the OSU WR) have off the charts natural ability and physical attributes, which may have over-shadowed their receiving skills.
How coachable each is or how responsible they feel for their development remains to be seen.
As far as Penn State, it looks like they have stabilized their WR coaching position (which was a concern their opponents may have taken advantage of). I would like to see them recruit and develop a bigger more physical WR. Historically, some opponents have neutralized their smaller WRs.
At the same time, I would hope they adjust their recruitment with unpolished and physically gifted WRs. Maybe they have tried, but the other side did not respond. How do you find the Allen Robinsons and Goodwins, and avoid the Shorters (Shorter Srs), etc....maybe it is not possible to be entirely avoid failure, it just seems to me (in hindsight) that they would have been in a better position the last few years if they had not engaged with these 2. They seemed to have recovered lately thanks to Dotson and Parker Washington.

Which begs the question, are bigger receivers inherently better receivers? I know the prototypical receiver is big/fast/great hands, think Julio Jones, but they seem harder to find. Dotson is our best receiver, has been for a few years, he is small and fast with great hands. Admittedly, I was a huge fan of Butler and Norwood. Great route runners, caught EVERYTHING. The big receivers we have recruited over the years seem to have at least one missing trait. They either can't get separation or they can't catch. I guess if we had an offense where we loved to throw redzone fades to our tallest guys(we throw these to our shortest guys for some reason), their height would be an advantage? As it is, I'll take 20 parker Washingtons and Dotsons over Juwan/shorter types. It could just be me, but I am seeing more speed receivers and drag route type guys then every before in college. The sport seems less and less to favor jump balls in the corner to 6ft 4 receivers.

 

[GulfCoastLion]

Fleming saw one guy unhappy? Man - I'd look at Godson, Robinson, Hamler, Gesicki, Freiermuth and now even Johnson all having success in the NFL. Fleming was looking for a reason not to go to PSU - it happens.

👍👍👍 Spot on. It all starts with his HS program and his HS Head Coach. The kid was never coming to Penn State and CJF invested far too much time to learn the lesson the hard way. I couldn’t care less about Fleming and he’s not missed whatsoever, with Dotson, Washington, etc. and the WR’s ( Sanders) coming in to the program.

 

[auxgym]

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.
..
It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

To say it's not working out for Fleming......he's a sophomore?......I think you may be a little premature on passing judgement.

 

[Shadow99]

Fleming saw one guy unhappy? Man - I'd look at Godson, Robinson, Hamler, Gesicki, Freiermuth and now even Johnson all having success in the NFL. Fleming was looking for a reason not to go to PSU - it happens.

...not to mention McCringleberry dominating the East-West Bowl and being the #1 overall NFL pick to the Los Angeles Rhinos!

 

[Alphabets]

While all of you are sitting here poking fun at Shorter, he's completely outplayed my previous expectations of him. The fact that he has caught simply anything at all is an improvement of unexplainable measure and the Florida staff should be louded for that. The transfer market has panned out beautifully for this young man, and if he continues to grow on a weekly basis he may reach four to five total catches for the year by December. I respect his decision.

 

[Texas Lion]

I think both (Shorter, and the OSU WR) have off the charts natural ability and physical attributes, which may have over-shadowed their receiving skills.
How coachable each is or how responsible they feel for their development remains to be seen.
As far as Penn State, it looks like they have stabilized their WR coaching position (which was a concern their opponents may have taken advantage of). I would like to see them recruit and develop a bigger more physical WR. Historically, some opponents have neutralized their smaller WRs.
At the same time, I would hope they adjust their recruitment with unpolished and physically gifted WRs. Maybe they have tried, but the other side did not respond. How do you find the Allen Robinsons and Goodwins, and avoid the Shorters (Shorter Srs), etc....maybe it is not possible to be entirely avoid failure, it just seems to me (in hindsight) that they would have been in a better position the last few years if they had not engaged with these 2. They seemed to have recovered lately thanks to Dotson and Parker Washington.

100% correct.....my mad doesn't come from them not coming here or them leaving here.....my mad comes from the shots they took when they did so.

Basically this: if you are going to blame others for your faults then you need to be reminded that it might have indeed been you, not them.

If Shorter just leaves without the talk to Fleming and Fleming picks OSU because they are OSU, then I would never start any thread......but since that didn't happen I want to constantly remind people that the two of them STINK.

 

[palmettolion]

Why blame them? Because someone is butt hurt that they chose to leave/not attend PSU. And for whatever reason, that person feels entitled to have them playing here. And since they are not, someone has to be blamed.

To be fair, I think for some on this thread it has less to do with being butt hurt over Fleming not coming here and Shorter leaving and more to do with the meltdowns that occurred by certain posters here in both cases.

I seem to remember a whole bunch of angst, end of the world, our coaches are the worst, etc. over both. I also remember those that suggested maybe neither were as good as advertised being shouted down, often.

 

[psuro]

To be fair, I think for some on this thread it has less to do with being butt hurt over Fleming not coming here and Shorter leaving and more to do with the meltdowns that occurred by certain posters here in both cases.

I seem to remember a whole bunch of angst, end of the world, our coaches are the worst, etc. over both. I also remember those that suggested maybe neither were as good as advertised being shouted down, often.

Its sour grapes. Aesop would be proud.

 

[mrmk5110]

Lets add the weekly Fleming thread to the list that includes the weekly Levis thread, the weekly Lonnie White thread, the weekly eTicket thread, the weekly QB under center thread, etc.....

 

[manatree]

Basically this: if you are going to blame others for your faults then you need to be reminded that it might have indeed been you, not them.

If Shorter just leaves without the talk to Fleming and Fleming picks OSU because they are OSU, then I would never start any thread......but since that didn't happen I want to constantly remind people that the two of them STINK.

Blessed be that you have self anointed your sacred self to remind them. Truly doing the Lord’s work.

 

[The Shelter]

Be thankful that Jahan Dotson flipped his commitment from UCLA to Penn State. What a baller he is!

 

[mcgunns]

Which begs the question, are bigger receivers inherently better receivers?

Yes of course, in EVERY way IF all else is equal. Quickness is probably the #1 most important WR talent trait because it's how you get open reliably. On the other hand, tiny quick kids cause liabilities that are hard to see like being terrible at blocking and not being an option at all if they aren't open. Size is also way better for YAC and durability. Trace excelled by throwing giant aerial bombs to totally contested receivers who were great at high-pointing. Gesicki, Godwin, DaeSean, Juwan, etc were all good to elite at coming down with those. Allen Robinson as managed to come down with tons of crazy catches. You can't even consider those throws when your receivers are Jahan and Parker Washington, but Sean Clifford seems unwilling to throw those so it's moot until he's gone. College football is about adapting your offense to your strengths and these new kids who can get open through quickness are exactly what Sean needs, would be better in every way if they were 6'4 though.

 

[ram2020]

Yes of course, in EVERY way IF all else is equal. Quickness is probably the #1 most important WR talent trait because it's how you get open reliably. On the other hand, tiny quick kids cause liabilities that are hard to see like being terrible at blocking and not being an option at all if they aren't open. Size is also way better for YAC and durability. Trace excelled by throwing giant aerial bombs to totally contested receivers who were great at high-pointing. Gesicki, Godwin, DaeSean, Juwan, etc were all good to elite at coming down with those. Allen Robinson as managed to come down with tons of crazy catches. You can't even consider those throws when your receivers are Jahan and Parker Washington, but Sean Clifford seems unwilling to throw those so it's moot until he's gone. College football is about adapting your offense to your strengths and these new kids who can get open through quickness are exactly what Sean needs, would be better in every way if they were 6'4 though.

I disagree with much of this. Small receivers are not "terrible" blockers. Was Heinz Ward? I am not sure I would put Desean Hamilton or Chris Godwin in the Shorter/Johnson category of MONSTER receivers. I am also not sure Parker Washington and Dotson can't catch contested catches over defenders...did you watch Dotson against OSU last year??? Or how about Parker Washington's TD catches against Maryland and Michigan State last year??? Gesiki is a Tight End, so let's rid ourselves of him for the argument(but speaking of terrible blockers, size clearly didn't matter there). What would you say are the greatest traits, as receivers, of Robinson and Godwin? I would personally say body control and hands, something small receivers tend to at least equal. Size is better for YAC? I don't know about that, seems speed and elusiveness is better for Yac. What are your thoughts on Tyreek Hill for the Chiefs in terms of yac? Could you throw a bubble screen to Shorter/Johnson and have them take it to the house? Dotson? Back to your 1st sentence " if all things equal." well, they haven't been with our receivers. Some big, some small, some fast, some not, some get separation and run good routes, some don't, but undeniably the biggest attribute of productive receivers is can they catch the football. I happen to think size is sort of immaterial for catching the football.

 

[tboyer]

How do you find the Allen Robinsons and Goodwins, and avoid the Shorters (Shorter Srs), etc....maybe it is not possible to be entirely avoid failure, it just seems to me (in hindsight) that they would have been in a better position the last few years if they had not engaged with these 2. They seemed to have recovered lately thanks to Dotson and Parker Washington.

There's a lot of luck involved. ARob was lightly recruited -- only got a PSU offer because he was on a HS team with a QB PSU wanted very badly. Dotson was initially passed on by PSU and was headed to UCLA but at the end of the cycle PSU ended up with another receiver slot and UCLA coach had been fired so Dotson was looking. Dotson wasn't as highly coveted because his speed was not great for his size (he has clearly benefited from PSU's S&C program)

All they can do is recruit a lot of wideouts and hope half of them pan out. It's kind of one of my favorite things about college football -- seeing the players who surprise you on the upside.

PSU seems to have a nice mix on defense this year of former blue chippers and some more lunchbucket type players who can really play. Like Daequan Hardy -- only a 3 star maybe because of his size but man he can flat out make plays. High football IQ reminds me of Charles Haley.

 

[tboyer]

I disagree with much of this. Small receivers are not "terrible" blockers. Was Heinz Ward? I am not sure I would put Desean Hamilton or Chris Godwin in the Shorter/Johnson category of MONSTER receivers. I am also not sure Parker Washington and Dotson can't catch contested catches over defenders...did you watch Dotson against OSU last year??? Or how about Parker Washington's TD catches against Maryland and Michigan State last year??? Gesiki is a Tight End, so let's rid ourselves of him for the argument(but speaking of terrible blockers, size clearly didn't matter there). What would you say are the greatest traits, as receivers, of Robinson and Godwin? I would personally say body control and hands, something small receivers tend to at least equal. Size is better for YAC? I don't know about that, seems speed and elusiveness is better for Yac. What are your thoughts on Tyreek Hill for the Chiefs in terms of yac? Could you throw a bubble screen to Shorter/Johnson and have them take it to the house? Dotson? Back to your 1st sentence " if all things equal." well, they haven't been with our receivers. Some big, some small, some fast, some not, some get separation and run good routes, some don't, but undeniably the biggest attribute of productive receivers is can they catch the football. I happen to think size is sort of immaterial for catching the football.

agree with this but I do think it's good to have size in the mix. There are times when a tall receiver can win games for you as Juwan Johnson did at Iowa in 2017. Godwin was extra special because of his size and physicality. PSU lacked a highly capable tall receiver in 2018 and 2019 and it cost them at times.

 

[ram2020]

agree with this but I do think it's good to have size in the mix. There are times when a tall receiver can win games for you as Juwan Johnson did at Iowa in 2017. Godwin was extra special because of his size and physicality. PSU lacked a highly capable tall receiver in 2018 and 2019 and it cost them at times.

Fair enough, but could have a 6"1' receiver make that catch against Iowa in the back of the end-zone? Was it really a "jump ball?"

Penn state suffered from poor receiver play in 2018 and 2019, but if i remember correctly, the team was besieged by drop passes. If I remember correctly, Johnson and Shorter were on the field a lot.

 

[mcgunns]

@ram2020
All I said was if all else is equal, size is preferable. Examples of small quick guys being great doesn't change that. I started by saying quickness is #1 for a reason and these WRs we have are deservedly at the top of the depth chart. They'd be even better if they were bigger. Imagine Tyreek Hill YAC if he was 50 pounds larger with the same quickness. JoePa tried to turn Larry Fitzgerald into an LB because he didn't have that quickness and thought he could use him elsewhere, but with his size, route running, and ability to catch contested balls he's a hall of famer anyway. Doesn't work if you're small. Big people can be terrible at blocking, but we're not gonna see 200lb kids with masterful technique on the OL anytime soon for obvious reasons.

 

[ram2020]

@ram2020
All I said was if all else is equal, size is preferable. Examples of small quick guys being great doesn't change that. I started by saying quickness is #1 for a reason and these WRs we have are deservedly at the top of the depth chart. They'd be even better if they were bigger. Imagine Tyreek Hill YAC if he was 50 pounds larger with the same quickness. JoePa tried to turn Larry Fitzgerald into an LB because he didn't have that quickness and thought he could use him elsewhere, but with his size, route running, and ability to catch contested balls he's a hall of famer anyway. Doesn't work if you're small. Big people can be terrible at blocking, but we're not gonna see 200lb kids with masterful technique on the OL anytime soon for obvious reasons.

Okay, I won't disagree with your presupposition that the best receivers would not only be great at catching, route running, have great speed, they would also be very tall. I'm good with that.

 

[mcgunns]

Okay, I won't disagree with your presupposition that the best receivers would not only be great at catching, route running, have great speed, they would also be very tall. I'm good with that.

Yep, the ones with the most potential are all in the NBA.

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.

It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

I will never support Shorter because he quit on the team mid-season. I have no problem with off-season transfers. I've seen plenty that get "carefronted" and then ripped into by fans who don't know the full picture.
Fleming I still hope succeeds because I support all the local kids and can't blame someone for thinking OSU is a better option than PSU. Both schools are great options and these are teenagers are making decisions on a bunch of variables that I am not privy to.

 

[bdgan]

A friendly reminder from this past week:

Combined for 3 catches and 33 yards.

Sour Grapes? Probably! But the crap they both kind of talked about development of 5 star WR on their way makes me want to send a reminder each and every week that maybe the two of them just STINK.

Flemming is a freshman on a star laden team. You're being a little harsh.

 

[heckmans]

Yep, don't mind the thread because it's a laugh, but really can't blame either of them.

Shorter, because of injuries or lack of skill/coachability or whatever, was not going to play much at PSU. He did the right thing to try another program and open the roster spot for someone else.

And Fleming saw Shorter unhappy, he saw the instability on the PSU coaching staff on offense, and Ohio State offered a spot at one of the premier wideout factories in the country.

It's not working out for either of them but maybe they were both just average players who dominated inferior HS competition so everybody thought they were better than they are. Goodness knows that's not their fault -- none of it is their fault.

So I'm not exactly rooting for them to blossom (little chance of that anyway) but why blame them for the very reasonable decisions they made?

I'll see your Justin Shorter and raise you 1 Michael Robinson.
Shorter had some adversity. Can't say he was never going to blossom or be successful at PSU (vs anywhere else).

 

[lionNYC]

Fair enough, but could have a 6"1' receiver make that catch against Iowa in the back of the end-zone? Was it really a "jump ball?"

Penn state suffered from poor receiver play in 2018 and 2019, but if i remember correctly, the team was besieged by drop passes. If I remember correctly, Johnson and Shorter were on the field a lot.

 

[tboyer]

Fair enough, but could have a 6"1' receiver make that catch against Iowa in the back of the end-zone? Was it really a "jump ball?"

Penn state suffered from poor receiver play in 2018 and 2019, but if i remember correctly, the team was besieged by drop passes. If I remember correctly, Johnson and Shorter were on the field a lot.

Yes indeed tall receivers can drop passes just as well as short receivers. But tall receivers can cause problems that short receivers can't.

In 2016 the combination of Godwin, Hamilton and Blacknall all over 6 feet and all able to run was simply too much for B1G defenses. The big guys make it a lot easier to throw to the deep sideline and a lot less dangerous to throw over the middle. McSorley was crazy accurate in 2016 but when he wasn't, those guys won almost all the battles with shorter corners and safeties.

 

[Texas Lion]

Flemming is a freshman on a star laden team. You're being a little harsh.

You don’t think the Ohio state wr room will continue to be stout? Cmon man, the kid was supposed to be a five star. Five stars don’t sit and wait for the older guys to move on.

 

[83wuzme]

Shorter outgrew the WR position while at PSU. He had good straight line speed, but he did not have the lateral mobility or the ability to fight for catches to be an effective WR. I recall he was 235 at one point and I believe JF indicated he could have gotten to 250. He is certainly not the only WR at PSU to experience this.
He needed to move to TE, like Troy Drayton once did. Also note Juwan Johnson’s newfound NFL success doing this.

 

[NJPSU]

Flemming is a freshman on a star laden team. You're being a little harsh.

Well he’s in his second year. While he may not be a complete bust, he appears to have been overrated. I have family from that area that are in involved in coaching and they acted like the kid was the second coming of Jerry Rice.

 

[NJPSU]

Shorter outgrew the WR position while at PSU. He had good straight line speed, but he did not have the lateral mobility or the ability to fight for catches to be an effective WR. I recall he was 235 at one point and I believe JF indicated he could have gotten to 250. He is certainly not the only WR at PSU to experience this.
He needed to move to TE, like Troy Drayton once did. Also note Juwan Johnson’s newfound NFL success doing this.

Agree. I watched Kyle Pitt’s play against the Eagles Sunday and the guy looks like a skinny wide receiver. The TE position has changed since the days of Kyle Brady.

 

[NC2017]

can't blame someone for thinking OSU is a better option than PSU.

Altho Flemming allowed himself to be influenced by a malcontent.