WHY PRAY TELL does Penn State basketball svck?

[Detective_MackDaddy]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

 

[21Guns]

Head Coach hires have not been held accountable in wins and losses, and A.D.'s have based hires on ties and connections to the University, rather than successfully finding the best coach available.

And it's been happening since 1982, regardless of Athletic Director. This includes Barbour.

 

[indoorgolf]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

Cause nobody really cares enough to make the commitment needed to fix it.

 

[WDLion]

Head Coach hires have not been held accountable in wins and losses, and A.D.'s have based hires on ties and connections to the University, rather than successfully finding the best coach available.

And it's been happening since 1982, regardless of Athletic Director. This includes Barbour.

So instead of four coaches since 82 you would of preferred 12.

 

[Fayette_LION]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

Two simple answers..........1. they expect the players to attend class and graduate 2. PSU has a small population that supports most sports and they are the older crowd. This older crowd doesn't explode with noise during games. JMO. Need students to get involved but most are indifferent unless you are winning. Catch22.

 

[LionDeNittany]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

The same things that help us be a football power hinder us in basketball.

In football we're one of the only games in town.

In basketball... well look at this map:

http://collegesportsinfo.com/ncaa-map/

I don't think this is even inclusive because of the Ivies which also get some decent players.

It takes years to develop a program in a market like this and for years noone cared.

LdN

 

[jerseylion109]

The BJC is garbage

 

[fairgambit]

Because it is not in our DNA. No matter what we do, or how much money we spend, it will not matter. We are like Indiana, or Duke in football. They may have a few good years, but their DNA is programmed for basketball. Ours is football. Nothing will ever change that, so I suggest we just accept it and enjoy wrestling (also in our DNA).

This is Indiana DNA. Clearly basketball.

Penn State DNA. Any good cell biologist will tell you this is clearly "football DNA".
(Note the wrestling component at the lower right.)

 

[joeparules]

1. Zero basketball history (PSU is a football school)
   
2. No commitment from the AD office (PSU is a football school)
3. Since Parkhill, poor head coach hirings (giving Chambers one more season)
4. Play in a mausoleum
5. Just not a big basketball area ... football and wrestling tend to dominate in more rural areas of PA

 

[JR4PSU]

So instead of four coaches since 82 you would of preferred 12.

How would have hiring better coaches resulted in 12 hires instead of four?

 

[WDLion]

How would have hiring better coaches resulted in 12 hires instead of four?

How do you know other coaches would have been better hires. My 12 different coaches is derived from many fans who want results in three to four years. Below standard results, new coach.

 

[Evan Ceg]

• No basketball history/tradition worthy of note.
• No natural recruiting territory. How many scholastic MBB players in PA grow up dreaming of playing for Penn State.
• No basketball culture at Penn State or in Central PA. With the exception of Greater Philly, Pennsylvania is a football and wrestling state.
• Historic skepticism by Penn State ADs that we could be good in basketball without cheating.
• Perception by coaches, recruits and the sporting public-at-large that basketball will forever reside in the shadow of Penn State Football.
• Nominal history of placing players in the NBA.

 

[Obliviax]

1. lack of tradition; getting kids into the NBA
2. commitment to education; don't look now but most of the programs that have year in and out success have plenty of kids on the "one and done" program.
3. location; we are in the middle of nowhere and without the tradition (that similarly located schools like Indy) its a tough recruit. Even tOSU & Michigan have better access to cities.

 

[21Guns]

1. Fans who care more about the well being of the coach, than the actual program.

 

[WDLion]

• No basketball history/tradition worthy of note.
• No natural recruiting territory. How many scholastic MBB players in PA grow up dreaming of playing for Penn State.
• No basketball culture at Penn State or in Central PA. With the exception of Greater Philly, Pennsylvania is a football and wrestling state.
• Historic skepticism by Penn State ADs that we could be good in basketball without cheating.
• Perception by coaches, recruits and the sporting public-at-large that basketball will forever reside in the shadow of Penn State Football.

Agree. In the Philly area we recruit against Temple and to a lesser extent Rutgers and Maryland for football.
In basketball we recruit against the Big East, ACC, A10 and even programs like Kentucky, etc.

 

[LionJim]

Two simple answers..........1. they expect the players to attend class and graduate.

Wisconsin does too. So does Gonzaga. Villanova, Georgetown (bad example right now).

 

[21Guns]

Wisconsin does too. So does Gonzaga. Villanova, Georgetown (bad example right now).

Those programs hired the best coach available, which is why they are winning. Georgetown is down.

 

[Evan Ceg]

Those programs hired the best coach available, which is why they are winning. Georgetown is down.

Who was the best coach available that Curley turned down before hiring Chambers?

 

[WDLion]

Who was the best coach available that Curley turned down before hiring Chambers?

Only Guns knows.

 

[Obliviax]

Wisconsin does too. So does Gonzaga. Villanova, Georgetown (bad example right now).

Totally agree...but here is the difference, IMHO:

• gonzaga has been building a program for YEARS. They've been in the NCAA's just about every year in the last 20 years.
• Villanova and Georgetown both have outstanding programs in basketball and are much better located than where we are to get good talent (philly and Washington respectively).

 

[LionJim]

Totally agree...but here is the difference, IMHO:

• gonzaga has been building a program for YEARS. They've been in the NCAA's just about every year in the last 20 years.
• Villanova and Georgetown both have outstanding programs in basketball and are much better located than where we are to get good talent (philly and Washington respectively).

Well, sure. But I was responding to someone who said that PSU's issue is that they insist their players go to class and, if they don't leave for the NBA early, graduate.

 

[ptomaselli]

How about a lack of B10 players?

PSU through lack of effort by 2 previous coaches had no recruiting pipelines into where a program like PSU is located would recruit (NY/NJ, SE PA, Pittsburgh, DC Metro). So, Chambers is already starting from behind.

He was hired June 2011. In Nov 2011, the PA OAG indicted Sandusky and tagged it a "Penn State" scandal. Anyone thinks that made it a tad difficult for Pat to recruit successfully for at least a 2-3 years? Ya think?! Whether people like it or not, it takes time to build recruiting pipelines...and he started out with the equivalent of trying to swim with a 25 lb plate tied to each leg.

Finally, we have some B10 level talent on campus (Watkins, Reaves, Carr, Stevens, Bostick).

We're not a one-and-done school like Kentucky. Kids have to come here and go to school too.

Some PSU "fans" are delusional in that they think there are all these coaching levers he can pull. Sure, he's no Izzo. But Izzo makes what $3M-$4M/year. Pat makes about 25%-35% of that.

Understanding when Chambers was hired, its nearly impossible to imagine anyone else would have been successful building PSU hoops.

He needs to see this current crop of actual B10 caliber talent through. Anyone who thinks people care more about Pat than the actual hoops team is a complete tool with the patience of an infant.

 

[coveydidnt]

Tickets are overpriced.

At Temple student tickets are free.

We would fill BJC if student tickets were free.

 

[UncleLar]

Well, sure. But I was responding to someone who said that PSU's issue is that they insist their players go to class and, if they don't leave for the NBA early, graduate.

He listed that as ONE reason, and it is. There are a ton of reasons why hoops isn't big at Penn State. No one of them is a deal breaker but it's a death by a thousand cuts when you add them all up.

 

[UncleLar]

Tickets are overpriced.

At Temple student tickets are free.

We would fill BJC if student tickets were free.

One game a year, you might be able to get away with making them free, but once you make the season free, students will treat the ticket as if that's the value that it has, i.e. it's worthless. Look at the sports on campus that offer free tickets - they don't have great student turnout at all.

 

[Evan Ceg]

There aren't enough pure basketball fans among the student body to use free MBB tickets when the product is mediocre. Penn Staters have been spoiled by Football's tradition of success and the students will show up if we win consistently, but not until. ICA has created a couple free MBB ticket events for students, and there were still lots of empty seats in the student section.

 

[JR4PSU]

How do you know other coaches would have been better hires. My 12 different coaches is derived from many fans who want results in three to four years. Below standard results, new coach.

So you are assuming any coach hired would not pass the three to four year results test? No way would might hire a coach that could pass that test. The test should be reasonable, of course. But I think four years is a reasonable time period for a coach to be able to prove his stuff. That is a complete turnover of players. If there are no coaches able to meet that test, then the game of basketball is doomed.

 

[WDLion]

So you are assuming any coach hired would not pass the three to four year results test? No way would might hire a coach that could pass that test. The test should be reasonable, of course. But I think four years is a reasonable time period for a coach to be able to prove his stuff. That is a complete turnover of players. If there are no coaches able to meet that test, then the game of basketball is doomed.

I'm not assuming anything. Nobody knows how different coaches would have fared. Maybe better, maybe worse.

 

[bjf1991]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

F$cking Humanists


That's why.

 

[NelsonMunce]

I guess everyone is down on basketball, and the results could have been greater, but I know many in the Temple community who are outraged over their basketball program.......the fact that none of those Roman kids stayed home, the fact that the new conference (geared toward football) sucks for the basketball program, and the fact that maybe Dunphy has lost his touch. I think many down that way would be happy to have Chambers.

 

[Harbaughsleepovers]

Every school that plays football is a football school. Why else would be UCONN be screwing around in the AAC?

Michigan and Ohio State are pretty good in basketball. Football isn't #1 at those schools?

Was Penn State a hockey school 5 years ago? Amazing what a $100 million and a smart design can do. Why didn't we build a 15k seat hockey arena?

If Penn State had a 200k seat football stadium with an Olympic track around the field and end zone seats to the moon and 90k showed up would we be saying people just don't care about football?

Gonzaga has a 6k facility and Villanova's primary facility is 6.5k. Gonzaga might win the national championship this year and Villanova won it last year.

We have one of the most dominant wrestling programs of all time and it generates what kind of revenue? $2 million a year? It loses money?

Basketball has lived in the B10 basement and generates 5 or 6 times the revenue wrestling does?

Yet we built a facility to have the floor space to hold the once in a blue moon wrestling tournament at the expense of basketball?

Only at Penn State.

 

[BlueBand]

So you are assuming any coach hired would not pass the three to four year results test? No way would might hire a coach that could pass that test. The test should be reasonable, of course. But I think four years is a reasonable time period for a coach to be able to prove his stuff. That is a complete turnover of players. If there are no coaches able to meet that test, then the game of basketball is doomed.

There are roughly 350 Division 1 basketball teams. Probably 2/3 of them just aren't good. A lot of them bring in new coaches every 3-5 years, and they still aren't very good. If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it. And there are plenty of schools who would "buy their way in" vis-a-vis throwing dollars at a big name coach. Except big name coaches, even up and comers, rarely if ever take the money. They wait for the right opening.

To paraphrase someone, who knew building a program is hard?

 

[Tweedbear]

Newbill senior season went to the Maryland game student tickets were free. Better student turn out. But far from a sellout.

 

[tsgoodling]

Two simple answers..........1. they expect the players to attend class and graduate 2. PSU has a small population that supports most sports and they are the older crowd. This older crowd doesn't explode with noise during games. JMO. Need students to get involved but most are indifferent unless you are winning. Catch22.

I am not buying that.. Come on. Northwestern proved that a non basketball school with the right coach can win!!! We just have not found a good coach... That is not fair... We have not found the right coach for PSU... These guys are good, just not what we need.

 

[Harbaughsleepovers]

I am not buying that.. Come on. Northwestern proved that a non basketball school with the right coach can win!!! We just have not found a good coach... That is not fair... We have not found the right coach for PSU... These guys are good, just not what we need.

Chris Collins didn't inherit a completely decimated roster that had to be rebuilt during an unprecedented child molestation scandal.

How many conversations has Chris Collins had to have with recruits, parents coaches, etc., about Jerry Sandusky?

Tougher sell. A beautiful Chicago suburb or middle of nowhere PA?

If Chambers was able to have the recruiting success Collins has had since day 1, Chambers' record would look much different.

 

[BlueBand]

I am not buying that.. Come on. Northwestern proved that a non basketball school with the right coach can win!!! We just have not found a good coach... That is not fair... We have not found the right coach for PSU... These guys are good, just not what we need.

Here's the thing people forget about NW before Collins took over. Carmody was there for 13 years. His teams finished between 5th and 8th in the B1G in 7 of those years. They were a middle of the conference team for over half the years under him, not a consistent bottom dweller. He had a losing record in his last year, but the 4 years leading up to that they won 17, 20, 20 and 19 games and went up the NIT for four straight years. Collins didn't inherit a program that was a complete bottom dweller at the time.

 

[21Guns]

Truly amazing how these fans continue to be apologists.

Since 1982. Look no further. Every coach is their buddy, their cousin, their pal, their bestest fwiend in the whole wide world. They could not care less about winning, it's all about defending a losing coach.

And Blue Band, your posts are reaching now, off the charts. LIMIT YOUR POOL TO POWER FIVE CONFERENCE TEAMS, NOT ALL 358 programs, lmao.

Power Five. In the Power five, only 6 teams have had longer waits from the last NCAA invite.

 

[BlueBand]

Truly amazing how these fans continue to be apologists.

Since 1982. Look no further. Every coach is their buddy, their cousin, their pal, their bestest fwiend in the whole wide world. They could not care less about winning, it's all about defending a losing coach.

And Blue Band, your posts are reaching now, off the charts. LIMIT YOUR POOL TO POWER FIVE CONFERENCE TEAMS, NOT ALL 358 programs, lmao.

Power Five. In the Power five, only 6 teams have had longer waits from the last NCAA invite.

Power 5 is not as relevant in basketball. Lots of good programs in non P5 conferences that you're competing with for coaches, and who are competing for student athletes. Like last year's national champs.

There's a difference between being an apologist, and a realist.

How long were you willing to give Franklin to turn around the football program?

 

[ptomaselli]

Power 5 is not as relevant in basketball. Lots of good programs in non P5 conferences that you're competing with for coaches, and who are competing for student athletes. Like last year's national champs.

There's a difference between being an apologist, and a realist.

How long were you willing to give Franklin to turn around the football program?

Nice post BlueBand. Some folks just refuse to accept the facts you are putting out. You can lead a horse to water. You can't make him drink it.

 

[greenmanRD]

It was a cold, January morning, 1989, I was sitting on the cafeteria steps of West Halls waiting for the doors to open for breakfast. I opened the Collegian newspaper and found out that Penn State joined (unofficially) The Big 10.

An article stated that BrucePa (Bruce Parkhill for you younger peeps) probably was reading this paper and his first thoughts would be "YES!"

Well, since playing B1G basketball, Penn State has gone...no where!

Why?!?

It has been a systemic failure from a university that never put any sort of priority on the program. Tim Curley was arguably the worst AD in the country for a P5 school. He never understood the basis of a rolling 4-year contract and didn't even provide coaches resources for them to recruit effectively (he let Dunn's and Dechellis' contract wind down). Penn State didn't have a coaches office in the BRYCE JORDAN CENTER, where they practice and play, until Ed DeChellis fought for one. Dunn brought a kid on a recruiting trip, and the lights were turned out on them. Dunn made the Sweet 16 and was given no benefit from the university at all (I still don't think he was a great coach, but it cost them recruits who saw that PSU team). All Curley and PSU were interested in for years was cashing Big Ten checks.

Since Sandy Barbour, there at least has been investment in the program. They either got a new film room or updated the old one (I forget) and they look to be getting a new practice facility, along with some updates to the configuration of the Bryce Jordan Center to make it more basketball friendly. She's invested in Pat's recruiting and enabled Pat to go wherever he can to get the best players possible.

We've also never recruited at a Big Ten level with consistency since we joined the conference. The only exception at this point is 2015 and 16, and who knows, maybe 2018 can yield a strong recruiting class (though who knows if Pat can effectively recruit given the state of his contract and his lack of on court success to this point).

2017-18 is another make or break year for this program. We'll see where we stand a year from now.