You do understand that those 8 victims had to sit in front of 12 people and recount the abuse?
But of course you don't believe them because Ziegler told you they were lying.
Ziegler Slaten today 4:30 PM ET
- Thread starter JeannieNeedsAShooter
- Start date
But of course you don't believe them because Ziegler told you they were lying.
[QUOTE="LaJolla Lion, post: 323781, mem1. How many times did you shower with kids that were not your own?
2. How many times were you told to stop, but still did this anyway?
3. How often did you have children in your basement alone or even over to your house?
4. How many kids were you alone with? 1-2, 50?
5. How many grown men do you know that hang out with kids that are not their alone all of the time?
6. How many kids stated you molested them? 1, 10?
HERE YOU GO
1. I took showers with adults who I was not related to when I was a boy. I took several with kids when I was a young adult. I have not done so in many years, but I don't work out or play sports with groups that involve kids. 2. If DPW and 2nd Mile wanted Jerry to stop, they would have told him not to take kids away from the boundaries of the program. These were experts trained to spot a pedophile. Obviously they did not and I doubt the police told him formally to stop. I think if the police are saying it now that their memory plays tricks too and they are doing a CYA.
3. I have never owned a house with a basement. When I was a kid I was in a basement with an electrician one day. I was with my father's friend alone in his basement, because he wanted to show me a CB.
4. I have done work for kids with disabilities and have been alone with kids. I have also done events at my Church for kids and are at times alone with them. I also coached my son's ball team and I had birthday parties for my kids and at times I was left alone with kids.
5. I had a extremely smart friend, who doing parties used to enjoy spending time alone with one of my sons. He was different, but I am positive nothing ever happened.
6. No kid ever has, but having worked with kids with disabilities, I could be accused and please tell me how to defend it. What if one parent sees this as a way to make money and accuses me. They then point out the above evidence and say I was grooming kids waiting for the perfect time. Other parents step forward and say they had their suspicions, because I like getting down on the floor and I like hugging them.
2. How many times were you told to stop, but still did this anyway?
3. How often did you have children in your basement alone or even over to your house?
4. How many kids were you alone with? 1-2, 50?
5. How many grown men do you know that hang out with kids that are not their alone all of the time?
6. How many kids stated you molested them? 1, 10?
HERE YOU GO
1. I took showers with adults who I was not related to when I was a boy. I took several with kids when I was a young adult. I have not done so in many years, but I don't work out or play sports with groups that involve kids. 2. If DPW and 2nd Mile wanted Jerry to stop, they would have told him not to take kids away from the boundaries of the program. These were experts trained to spot a pedophile. Obviously they did not and I doubt the police told him formally to stop. I think if the police are saying it now that their memory plays tricks too and they are doing a CYA.
3. I have never owned a house with a basement. When I was a kid I was in a basement with an electrician one day. I was with my father's friend alone in his basement, because he wanted to show me a CB.
4. I have done work for kids with disabilities and have been alone with kids. I have also done events at my Church for kids and are at times alone with them. I also coached my son's ball team and I had birthday parties for my kids and at times I was left alone with kids.
5. I had a extremely smart friend, who doing parties used to enjoy spending time alone with one of my sons. He was different, but I am positive nothing ever happened.
6. No kid ever has, but having worked with kids with disabilities, I could be accused and please tell me how to defend it. What if one parent sees this as a way to make money and accuses me. They then point out the above evidence and say I was grooming kids waiting for the perfect time. Other parents step forward and say they had their suspicions, because I like getting down on the floor and I like hugging them.
Thanks for replying. So you took kids with disabilities back yo your house when they were alone? You did this countless times? I never once had a coach shower with me. I played sports into college and it never happened.
I have kids over all the time as I have 2 kids and a pool. I coach U5 boys soccer and I just use common sense. I'm not worried at all of being accused because I don't molest kids or act inappropriate. I wonder how far you'll go to defend him.
[QUOTE="LaJolla Lion
We took kids for airplane rides. My favorite job was greeting kids and making them and their siblings feel special. I would get down on their level and hung them and act silly. I would do the same with the siblings and tell them how special they are. I make sure I do not touch what a swimsuit covers. However, what if someone says I touched child. They then talk to others who say that I was acting creepy and hugging kids. Tell me how to defend that if the parent wants to sue me, the Association, the Airport etc. If one kid does it, do you think others would join in? Even worse is I have friends who have adopted and others who are foster parents. If someone wins millions suing the adoption agency, do you think others will join in?
The trial was a sham. What does it hurt you if Jerry gets a new trial from an objective jury? Here is a man who gave 10+ years of his life helping disadvantaged kids and you want him to rot in jail because of circumstantial evidence? Matt told Oprah that many walked in on Jerry's performance. Where are they? Where is one? There were two eyewitnesses. The prosecution said Myers was not V2, but a couple of months ago Shubin boasted how HE REPRESENTS V2??? The 2nd was hearsay without a victim or a date. Please tell me how to defend that???
We took kids for airplane rides. My favorite job was greeting kids and making them and their siblings feel special. I would get down on their level and hung them and act silly. I would do the same with the siblings and tell them how special they are. I make sure I do not touch what a swimsuit covers. However, what if someone says I touched child. They then talk to others who say that I was acting creepy and hugging kids. Tell me how to defend that if the parent wants to sue me, the Association, the Airport etc. If one kid does it, do you think others would join in? Even worse is I have friends who have adopted and others who are foster parents. If someone wins millions suing the adoption agency, do you think others will join in?
The trial was a sham. What does it hurt you if Jerry gets a new trial from an objective jury? Here is a man who gave 10+ years of his life helping disadvantaged kids and you want him to rot in jail because of circumstantial evidence? Matt told Oprah that many walked in on Jerry's performance. Where are they? Where is one? There were two eyewitnesses. The prosecution said Myers was not V2, but a couple of months ago Shubin boasted how HE REPRESENTS V2??? The 2nd was hearsay without a victim or a date. Please tell me how to defend that???
Well it was made clear in 98 that it was wrong and he kept doing it. After 2001 he decided to take his act to a hotel gym and pool. Any reasonably intelligent person would ask why he needed to continue his unsupervised workouts at all?
The rest of your post is nothing more than subjective rationalization. Actually that's being kind. It's more like baseless delusion given the findings of the report they spent millions on.
The Paternos are behind a report that states Sandusky is a textbook example of a nice guy pedophile, but you think they don't back JZ because they're leery of outsiders? Seems legit.
You should probably do the same as none of those cases are remotely close to Sandusky's.
I agree as most grown men know better. Then again most men aren't in the top 1% of sexual predators.
Chiming in here, not reading through all of the back and forth.
As a kid in Boy Scouts, at camp, it was common for everyone to shower in a large shower - boys and men. Now, granted there was never a time when one boy and one man would be in the shower alone (that I can remember). But, it was simply not a big deal then. I think in many locker rooms (at least for boys), "gang showers" were common - whether at school, at the local gym, wherever there was a locker room and shower facilities (like a YMCA). It's easier architecture and construction.
As a kid in Boy Scouts, at camp, it was common for everyone to shower in a large shower - boys and men. Now, granted there was never a time when one boy and one man would be in the shower alone (that I can remember). But, it was simply not a big deal then. I think in many locker rooms (at least for boys), "gang showers" were common - whether at school, at the local gym, wherever there was a locker room and shower facilities (like a YMCA). It's easier architecture and construction.
Group showers exist all over the place and they aren't a problem. Anyone caught up on just that is missing the big picture as it was his constant need to be alone with kids that weren't his. It wasn't just Jerry being Jerry, it was a pedophile being a pedophile. I honestly think his staunchest defenders never heard of or really saw what a nice guy predator does in the town they are in. Jerry fit the mold with perfection and the victims came forward finally which sometimes never occurs at all. Clemente basically called him the top of the food chain when it comes to sexual predators so maybe that is why a few here are still in a bit of denial. He's just a nice guy...well yeah that is what he needed people to think.
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1. How many times did you shower with kids that were not your own? Lots of people did this for many years. It was accepted practice. Here, in my community, we have a public shower at the community pool where you are instructed to shower before and after you swim. On cooler days, when the pool is not crowded, you will find lots of adults showering with kids that they don't know. Just sayin. Regardless, it isn't illegal.
2. How many times were you told to stop, but still did this anyway? Creepy, not illegal.
3. How often did you have children in your basement alone or even over to your house? Ever hear of "Big Brothers"? Happens often. Just because you are alone with a kid, doesn't mean you are guilty of a crime.
4. How many kids were you alone with? 1-2, 50? Not sure why this is relevant....lots of men that work in the industry are alone with kids....again, Big Brothers.
5. How many grown men do you know that hang out with kids that are not their alone all of the time? Big Brothers....there's a ton of them. One of my best friends, now deceased at a very young age, brought young men into his home all of the time (kids that were troubled at his church). They cried and cried, as did most of their moms, when he died at age 48 of cancer. Again, tons and tons.
6. How many kids stated you molested them? 1, 10? The only one I am aware of, before their was a financial gain dangled in front of them, was V1. The kid in 1998 said it didn't happen (nor could they get anything in two sting operations). The 2001 kid has never been 100% ID'd. After the GJ presentment, there were dozens. Many of their stories were demonstrably incorrect (kid said he was abused at Lasch before it existed and was still paid out, others were thrown out). So these testimonies have to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt.
I suspect that JS is guilty, in fact far greater than 50%. In fact, in my mind, probably around 90% certain. However, I would not be shocked or surprised to find out these young men made up their stories. MM's testimony is the lynchpin in this case. Without his testimony, I'd vote to find him "not guilty". I personally know far too many people wrongly accused. Several were accused as part of divorce procedures. Several were men that worked "in the system". One was a dad/soccer coach.
2. How many times were you told to stop, but still did this anyway? Creepy, not illegal.
3. How often did you have children in your basement alone or even over to your house? Ever hear of "Big Brothers"? Happens often. Just because you are alone with a kid, doesn't mean you are guilty of a crime.
4. How many kids were you alone with? 1-2, 50? Not sure why this is relevant....lots of men that work in the industry are alone with kids....again, Big Brothers.
5. How many grown men do you know that hang out with kids that are not their alone all of the time? Big Brothers....there's a ton of them. One of my best friends, now deceased at a very young age, brought young men into his home all of the time (kids that were troubled at his church). They cried and cried, as did most of their moms, when he died at age 48 of cancer. Again, tons and tons.
6. How many kids stated you molested them? 1, 10? The only one I am aware of, before their was a financial gain dangled in front of them, was V1. The kid in 1998 said it didn't happen (nor could they get anything in two sting operations). The 2001 kid has never been 100% ID'd. After the GJ presentment, there were dozens. Many of their stories were demonstrably incorrect (kid said he was abused at Lasch before it existed and was still paid out, others were thrown out). So these testimonies have to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt.
I suspect that JS is guilty, in fact far greater than 50%. In fact, in my mind, probably around 90% certain. However, I would not be shocked or surprised to find out these young men made up their stories. MM's testimony is the lynchpin in this case. Without his testimony, I'd vote to find him "not guilty". I personally know far too many people wrongly accused. Several were accused as part of divorce procedures. Several were men that worked "in the system". One was a dad/soccer coach.
Of course lots of people take showers in group showers. The issue is taking a kid that isn't yours and showering with them alone. I believe at least 2 victims had that happen to them. Group showers with sports teams as a kid were the kids or coaches went in separately. I'm 41 so maybe those in their 60's were used to something else. Creepy, but not illegal...yeah until the child gets molested. Then it's illegal. Nobody said just because your alone with a kid it makes you guilty. How many clouds of smoke did you really need to see. Sorry the 10 year olds didn't save his DNA so you could close out the other 10% of your mind.
If Jerry is innocent and actual evidence of this is introduced, I'll be the first one to say...wow, how crazy wrong was I. You and I know that isn't going to happen. I assume you know how incredibly hard it is for childhood victims to come forward. The people here thinking they all do or even 70% do are incredibly ignorant on the subject. The majority don't come forward and while some got paid in this instance due to piss poor school leadership, it doesn't excuse the criminal. This wasn't a he said, she said...this was a They said, he didn't say. You also have to believe a lot of decent people just wanted to bury Jerry. The nice guy predator in our town was known as the "candy man" and boy did he like to give out candy and then some. Everyone loved him until he died and the truth came out. I'm so glad my parents were super wise and told me to stay the hell away from there. That doesn't make every nice person a predator, but some of them actually are.
I agree with all of that....but you cannot dismiss the fact that the only kids (then adults) that came forward only did so once there was a monetary gain. Does that make them liars? Heck not. But it does make one question their authenticity (especially kids that have had some problems in their lives).
...and, "creepy" is not "illegal". There have been reports that adults showing with kids in central PA, even second mile kids, was not unusual. And, my own experience as a kid, is that it was fairly common back in the day. Finally, as stated about the local pool, I am 100% sure men showered with kids by themselves, as circumstances dictated, commonly.
Finally, I find MM to be highly questionable for several reasons. And, his family as well. I just wonder how it is that several erstwhile responsible people didn't call the police that night if MM saw what he said he saw to the Grand Jury. I am highly suspicious he was "coached" to embolden his testimony (either to get a monster off the street or blackmailed). This happens all of the time. Cops lie like a rug and it is common and accepted practice.
Having said all of that, yes, I think he's guilty. But I wouldn't be surprised if several of these guys recant their stories after the money is spent.
Please continue to try to point me in the right direction. I have been trying to point you in the right direction and get you to understand my perspective. It has been a challenge.
I respect your opinion and that you have been living this story in the greater State College community from before the AF allegations surfaced and personally know some of the key players. I also respect that you believe that Matt Sandusky is totally untrustworthy and seem to realize that there have been some false narratives and highly irregular circumstances behind the whole story. Furthermore, I respect that you have been blocked by both John Ziegler and Ray Blehar. I have been blocked by the best of them and do not respect people who say they are on a search for the truth and then decide to block you because they don't like an opinion that you have made.
That being said; if you want me to take you seriously, please read Sandusky's Petition. How can you rebut any of the defense arguments if you don't know what they are. Contrary to the Freeh Report, I find the Petition factual and a compelling case that JS did not receive a fair trial. Have you read Spanier's complaint (freehreport.com)? I find it factual and believe it convincingly rebuts the Freeh Report.
Why are you so critical of the Moulten Report? What do they have wrong?
I understand that finding MM in the Fall of 2010 was a turning point in the case. Are you aware of any new victims that came forward after MM was identified as a witness and before Sara Ganim's March 2011 grand jury leak?
I don't think Sandusky is as smart as Jim Clemente or you make him out to be. He certainly isn't a master manipulator as evidenced by his Bob Costas interview where he was totally ineffective at denying the charges and professing his innocence.
The man is an actor, plain and simple. It is easier however to fool and manipulate children Steve. Keep that in mind.
Wow! I just googled these and it is amazing to me that these people were let off when they had far more suspicion and circumstantial evidence that what has been aimed at Jerry.
Jerry had unusual behavior. It was leaked he was being investigated and nothing happened. Ganim for some reason (IMO it was not a change of heart) switched and said Joe was guilty in covering up. Everybody including me concluded that Jerry was a MONSTER and there had to be a reason for Joe not to uncover.. What Joe defenders grabbed onto including me was that Jerry tricked Joe and Joe thought Jerry was guilty, but there was no evidence. About a year ago, it all came together that the BOT engineered this to cover up their political and monetary corruption. In these other cases kids lined up and here kids lined up AND got a big payday. This makes sense, because Jay said Joe let his grandkids go to Jerry's after 2001. Scott after talking to Mike concluded and told the world that Jerry is a monster. Now Scott's pride prohibits him for saying he does not think Jerry is a pedophile and is looking at different reports. Did Clemente meet with Jerry? Did he give Jerry tests? No, Clemente looked at a MONSTER and concluded why he was one.
If Florida swallowed their pride and gave a new trial to convicted pedophile, then Pennsylvania should too.
It is not as easy to fool adults. I assume you believe he has fooled his wife Dottie as well as his adult children Kara, Jon, Jeff, and AJ. I know that his original attorney (Joe Amendola), his current attorney (Al Lindsay) and hundreds of other adults including myself believe he is innocent. Jerry could have us all fooled, but I don't so.
MM is highly questionable because in 2001 he stated that he heard noises that could have been sex but he didn't witness anything sexual in the shower. In addition, am (v2) stated that nothing sexual happened in the shower.
You seem to understand some of the problems with the first trial and why JS's deserves a second look.
Which of the victims do you find the most credible? Do you think AF is telling the truth? Do you think that repressed memory therapy is reliable?
They know not to advertise it. Plenty of men cheat on their wives and vice versa which is fooling them. How much easier it when you can hide behind I'm just a nice guy doing this for charity. He didn't fool all the adults though as he is in prison and will be for life thankfully.
I think you're missing the point. These were all people (among many others I could name) who were falsely accused of child molestation and essentially railroaded by overzealous prosecutors based on the same evidence used to convict Jerry.
at this point, I'm not certain what crimes Sandusky actually committed. I do know the prosecution cheated to get convictions.
I guess I am mainly referring to the Grant Snowden case where there was a ton more circumstantial evidence including multiple witnesses who claimed sex with Snowden and two had sexual diseases. These kids made accusations and were not awarded millions. Snowden and his wife groomed these kids under the pretense of a daycare facility. The media did not lable Snowden a MONSTER before the trial, so the jury was objective. They also had two respected medical doctors give their opinion that these kids were not lying. After Snowden was convicted, it would be must harder to get a new trial than what has already been proven in Jerry's case. Why is that?
You just compared showering at a public pool during normal hours of operation to Sandusky's secluded nighttime showers. How intellectually dishonest can you be?
What the hell is wrong with you? He manipulated a situation to get children naked and alone countless times and you act like it's no different than taking a group shower, pathetic.
First, it was an example....a 2015 example. Lasch is public to a large number of people too.
Having said that, I reiterate, I think he's guilty but wouldn't be shocked or surprised to find out differently.
The same evidence? Not even close.
They built those cases on the testimony of very young children, it couldn't be more different. Depending on the word of a 4 yo isn't remotely close to what the prosecution had in Sandusky's case.
The lengths you guys go to is truly amazing.
Countless times? Really? Again, please show evidence that sexual gratification was Sandusky's intent?
What's wrong, don't like the truth? Go do some research and you'll find my post is 100% accurate.
The fact he continued to do it after 98 is pretty good indicator. That and the victims testimony make it pretty clear.
But of course you need a confession to believe anything happened.
