141-149 situation...

[NittanyChris]

This is just for the sake of discussion. Cael suggested we might need Beau and Nick both in the lineup. If we just take this as a starting point then here are some points to consider.
1. Who has a better chance to succeed at 149?
2. Nick has certainly earned the right to choose his weight and Hoosier Lion, who seems to be in the know about the Lees, thinks he’d clearly choose 141.
3. What makes the team better at tournament time?
4. Is it too late for Nick to certify at 149?
5. If the answer to question 1 is Nick, would he go up for the team’s sake?

Well, no matter what, I was just happy to see the guys finally in action?

WE ARE!!!

 

[86PSUPaul]

I am pretty sure if he is certified at 141 then he can always go up, or be certified at 149, to point 5

 

[El-Jefe]

4. Is it too late for Nick to certify at 149?

Anybody who is certified at 149 or below can wrestle at 149. No need for Nick or Beau to certify at 149.

 

[McScoreley]

I'd trust my senior veteran to handle size differences better than my true freshman. Nick would sacrifice a lot of his top game but his pace would wear down 149s also.

 

[Kale_yeah]

Cael also said we needs points this yr. At 149. Nick is in the mix for champion ship at 141 so he should stay there and beau gets what he can at 149.but I think Nick being a better wrestler would be able to handle bigger stronger wrestlers at this point in his career and beau could have more success at 141 plus he still making that weight.

 

[NittanyChris]

Cael also said we needs points this yr. At 149. Nick is in the mix for champion ship at 141 so he should stay there and beau gets what he can at 149.but I think Nick being a better wrestler would be able to handle bigger stronger wrestlers at this point in his career and beau could have more success at 141 plus he still making that weight.

I honestly think that Nick would win it all at EITHER 41 or 49. However, I think his experience and advanced skill level would allow him to better handle any weight deficit at 49. Also, If I think of all the contenders at 41 and 49, I'd rank Nick 1st, Eierman 2nd, Seabass 3rd and O'Connor 4th. So, there are more serious threats to Nick at 41 than at 49, despite any weight differential, IMO.

WE ARE!!!

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Cael also said we needs points this yr. At 149. Nick is in the mix for champion ship at 141 so he should stay there and beau gets what he can at 149.but I think Nick being a better wrestler would be able to handle bigger stronger wrestlers at this point in his career and beau could have more success at 141 plus he still making that weight.

Did anyone here listen to JB today? “SUPPOSEDLY“ Beau told JB that he can beat Nick Lee and he is staying at 141.
This is what someone told me they heard on JB broadcast today, so dont beat me up.

FWIW BoBar went 3-0 at 141 today

 

[NittanyChris]

Did anyone here listen to JB today? “SUPPOSEDLY“ Beau told JB that he can beat Nick Lee and he is staying at 141.
This is what someone told me they heard on JB broadcast today, so dont beat me up.

FWIW BoBar went 3-0 at 141 today

I love Beau's chutzpah. That said, he'll come around and decide to give it a go at 49, IMO.

 

[1032004]

I honestly think that Nick would win it all at EITHER 41 or 49. However, I think his experience and advanced skill level would allow him to better handle any weight deficit at 49. Also, If I think of all the contenders at 41 and 49, I'd rank Nick 1st, Eierman 2nd, Seabass 3rd and O'Connor 4th. So, there are more serious threats to Nick at 41 than at 49, despite any weight differential, IMO.

This. Lee has probably just as good of a shot if not better to win 149. If Bartlett would be undersized, Bartlett 141 Lee 149 likely scores the most points at NCAA’s IMO.

 

[El-Jefe]

Did anyone here listen to JB today? “SUPPOSEDLY“ Beau told JB that he can beat Nick Lee and he is staying at 141.
This is what someone told me they heard on JB broadcast today, so dont beat me up.

FWIW BoBar went 3-0 at 141 today

Flagged for not listening to Byers. You SHOULD get beaten up for that.

As far as the content goes, what really happened was that Cael told Byers: Bartlett thinks he will beat Nick Lee and win the national title at 141.

I'm sure Cael loves the attitude and competitiveness, and that he's also skeptical in the sense that Bartlett needs to prove he can beat Nick instead of merely believing it.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Bump.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Flagged for not listening to Byers. You SHOULD get beaten up for that.

As far as the content goes, what really happened was that Cael told Byers: Bartlett thinks he will beat Nick Lee and win the national title at 141.

I'm sure Cael loves the attitude and competitiveness, and that he's also skeptical in the sense that Bartlett needs to prove he can beat Nick instead of merely believing it.

Bartlett is my main man. I definitely see NCs in his future, but you have to beat all of these non starters in the extra matches by more than 4 points to have legit dreams of grandeur. NC your first year let alone as a true freshman is so rare, just ask Zain, Bo and Nolf. Sure Mark did it, but then couldn't repeat.

I am not so sure that if he were to beat Nick in a wrestle off if Cael would start him. He might have to get 2 out if 3 or more. Head to head in the same room with the guy you wrestle every day is not the same as nationals either. Nick is a 20 pointer for us this year, so the benefit to the team is nil, while the risk pretty high.

Now to debate who might give us more points at 149, Verk, Nick or Beau, that might be worth it's own string.

I think Beau might add good weight faster, but Nick would probably generate a few more points.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I wonder if the NCAA would consider tag team matches? Next year Nick, Beau and Shane might all be competing for the same slot. We could be awesome.

Whoever loses in wrestle offs between Shane and Beau will probably redshirt.

 

[GantryZ]

I definitely see NCs in his future, but you have to beat all of these non starters in the extra matches by more than 4 points to have legit dreams of grandeur.

True, that 8-4 win over a Northwestern backup who has wrestled at 133 this year isn't a sign he's at Lee's level.

But for a glass half full take this same guy only lost to Chad Red by 2 points this year. So Bartlett's twice as good as Chad Red! /s

As for a useless transitive property, Bartlett beat Valdivez by 4 points. Valdivez lost in OT to Cayden Rooks. Nick Lee teched Cayden Rooks.

 

[Lyons212]

About 10 years ago Cael told Jake Kemerer that his style would not be successful at this level of wrestling. Jake never changed his style, transferred to Lock Haven and never came close to living up to his high school ranking.

I would not be surprised if Cael has had that same conversation with Verk. By no means am I questioning his effort or dedication...but the team needs to see more of the Verk from the 2019 Micah Jordan match than what the team saw today against Rooks.

 

[El-Jefe]

About 10 years ago Cael told Jake Kemerer that his style would not be successful at this level of wrestling. Jake never changed his style, transferred to Lock Haven and never came close to living up to his high school ranking.

I would not be surprised if Cael has had that same conversation with Verk. By no means am I questioning his effort or dedication...but the team needs to see more of the Verk from the 2019 Micah Jordan match than what the team saw today against Rooks.

I would be thoroughly surprised if Cael had that same conversation with Verk.

The Kemerer situation wasn't just about his style in matches. It was about his practice habits, about him not accepting coaching -- and about how that was getting noticed by the younger wrestlers in Cael's first year when he was establishing a new culture.

 

[McScoreley]

About 10 years ago Cael told Jake Kemerer that his style would not be successful at this level of wrestling. Jake never changed his style, transferred to Lock Haven and never came close to living up to his high school ranking.

I would not be surprised if Cael has had that same conversation with Verk. By no means am I questioning his effort or dedication...but the team needs to see more of the Verk from the 2019 Micah Jordan match than what the team saw today against Rooks.

Honestly - that Micah match is a good indicator of Verk's career though. He still lost that end of the day. (yes I know the stall call at the end was bad) He can wrestle great wrestlers close. He scored off his duck and on a scramble off of Micah's shot that match. It's been discussed but Verk cannot change his style, if he tried to mimic Lee, he would gas out by the 2nd.

 

[jack66]

Now to debate who might give us more points at 149, Verk, Nick or Beau, that might be worth it's own string.

I think Beau might add good weight faster, but Nick would probably generate a few more points.

Verk scored zero team points on his way to a 9th place finish at Bigs last year. I'm pretty confident Lee would outscore him at 149.

IMO Lee deserves to go where he wants to go, I also believe he would do well at either weight. Not sure about BB at 149, but we can't afford to leave any points sitting on the bench this March.

 

[Sportfan2017]

I love Beau's chutzpah. That said, he'll come around and decide to give it a go at 49, IMO.

Beau wrestled at 138 in HS. Most HS wrestlers go down a bit in college to start. He is built solid. At 149 however.....I think length is a problem. At his height/length I believe he is a 141 max at this point. How that fits in this year at PSU remains to be seen. Going 141-149 for Lee to be most effective would require a year of weights and nutrition. Same for RBY going to 141. Beau might have to wait for a year or be a quite undersized 149. Tough call. Not sure that Beau, RBY, Lee or RBY, Beau, Lee at 133-149 would outscore RBY, Lee and ?

 

[1032004]

Verk scored zero team points on his way to a 9th place finish at Bigs last year. I'm pretty confident Lee would outscore him at 149.

Yeah I guess Verk has an outside shot to AA, but only about a 1% chance at best of any bonus points.

 

[The Japanese Whizzer]

I’m going to say what everyone is thinking - if verk is our 149 going into BIGS we are in trouble. Lemonpie called it two years ago. 149 is especially important since “forfeit” is starting at 125 for a university that includes 40,000 undergraduates. Barraclough got his chance and laid an egg so now who can win a college match at 149 for PSU - Gardner? Beau? Lee? Lee #3? Fiete?

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Did anyone here listen to JB today? “SUPPOSEDLY“ Beau told JB that he can beat Nick Lee and he is staying at 141.
This is what someone told me they heard on JB broadcast today, so dont beat me up.

FWIW BoBar went 3-0 at 141 today

Those weren't the exact words. It was more along the lines of, "Beau believes he can beat Nick Lee and win a NC at 141."

In my opinion,
I would be surprised if Beau didn't believe that.
I would be surprised if Beau could actually 1) beat Lee and 2) win an NC.
I thought I detected a hint of doubt in JB's voice, as to whether Beau could do that.

 

[jschrantz]

I’m going to say what everyone is thinking - if verk is our 149 going into BIGS we are in trouble. Lemonpie called it two years ago. 149 is especially important since “forfeit” is starting at 125 for a university that includes 40,000 undergraduates. Barraclough got his chance and laid an egg so now who can win a college match at 149 for PSU - Gardner? Beau? Lee? Lee #3? Fiete?

“Laid an egg” is an ass Clown comment , go away

 

[Nitfan]

This is just for the sake of discussion. Cael suggested we might need Beau and Nick both in the lineup. If we just take this as a starting point then here are some points to consider.
1. Who has a better chance to succeed at 149?
2. Nick has certainly earned the right to choose his weight and Hoosier Lion, who seems to be in the know about the Lees, thinks he’d clearly choose 141.
3. What makes the team better at tournament time?
4. Is it too late for Nick to certify at 149?
5. If the answer to question 1 is Nick, would he go up for the team’s sake?

Well, no matter what, I was just happy to see the guys finally in action?

WE ARE!!!

Best for the team would be Beau to 149 and Lee stays at 141.

 

[billrag]

Everything that I believe has already been posted, but I'm feeling antsy this morning, so I'll repeat those things. First of all, I got the impression from Byers' comments (and from Cael's) that Beau THINKS he can beat Nick Lee and win a title, not that he's actually said that to anyone out loud. Secondly, I agree with those who suggest that it's a really small trial sample, but it's hard to imagine Beau storming through 141 this year and winning the title, given these very few matches so far. I believe that Bartlett 141/Lee 149 probably scores more points at Big Tens or at Nationals and while I know that Nationals are the ultimate goal and that the coaching staff encourages each wrestler to be a "team player", that Nick Lee has earned the right to choose his weight class and we've been told multiple times that Lee prefers 141 and intends to stay at 141. So, if we ultimately see Beau Bartlett as a starter or at the Big Ten tournament, it's my belief that it will probably be at 149, although perhaps Nick will change his mind. We simply don't know.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

Everything that I believe has already been posted, but I'm feeling antsy this morning, so I'll repeat those things. First of all, I got the impression from Byers' comments (and from Cael's) that Beau THINKS he can beat Nick Lee and win a title, not that he's actually said that to anyone out loud. Secondly, I agree with those who suggest that it's a really small trial sample, but it's hard to imagine Beau storming through 141 this year and winning the title, given these very few matches so far. I believe that Bartlett 141/Lee 149 probably scores more points at Big Tens or at Nationals and while I know that Nationals are the ultimate goal and that the coaching staff encourages each wrestler to be a "team player", that Nick Lee has earned the right to choose his weight class and we've been told multiple times that Lee prefers 141 and intends to stay at 141. So, if we ultimately see Beau Bartlett as a starter or at the Big Ten tournament, it's my belief that it will probably be at 149, although perhaps Nick will change his mind. We simply don't know.

Okay, don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but it really doesn't speak to the "elephant in the room" -- Cael's public comments after the match that implying that PSU's best starting lineup includes both Nick Lee and Beau Bartlett in it. So who is that statement trying to influence re: 149 - clearly Cael has talked to both of them about 141 and 149, so what has Cael suggested to them (i.e., NL and BB) is the best way to go at these two weights? IOW, which of these two are his public comments trying to influence?

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Nick Lee will wrestle where he wants to wrestle as long as he doesn't lose a wrestle-off. He has earned that right and Cael will give it to him. IMHO it's pretty simple.

Plus we are more than one lineup move from beating Iowa right now. I want to see Nick Lee win a National Championship and don't agree that his chances at 149 are as good as they are at 141. He can certainly do well at 149 for sure but I worry about his size / strength against those bigger guys as he's not going to suddenly become a full sized 149 pounder overnight. Beau will have the same issue.

 

[NittanyChris]

I don't know his exact words but I did find it curious that Cael made public comments about the best lineup featuring both Nick and BB in it. We all know that Cael is traditionally quite reserved about what he discloses regarding lineup decisions, so for him to make a comment like that after the first day of competition for the team is very intriguing. I would tend to think he did it for a reason. What do people think?

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

Nick Lee will wrestle where he wants to wrestle as long as he doesn't lose a wrestle-off. He has earned that right and Cael will give it to him. IMHO it's pretty simple.

Plus we are more than one lineup move from beating Iowa right now. I want to see Nick Lee win a National Championship and don't agree that his chances at 149 are as good as they are at 141. He can certainly do well at 149 for sure but I worry about his size / strength against those bigger guys as he's not going to suddenly become a full sized 149 pounder overnight. Beau will have the same issue.

Okay, but Cael's public comments yesterday clearly means he has spoken with both wrestlers regarding this topic (i.e., PSU's best lineup having both guys on the mat), so this begs the question - who were Cael's comments attempting to influence? I would tend to believe they are aimed at BB and that Cael wants him to give 149 a shot in this FREE season of eligibility (i.e., Cael thinks he's PSU's best option at 149 which imho suggests that he's performed well against PSU's 49 lbers in the room. who are quality collegiate 49 lbers... IOW, Cael thinks he's our best option at 49 based on what he's already seen him do against quality 49 lbers.). Anyway, I believe his comments are being aimed at BB because Nick Lee got the start at 41 and BB only got "extra matches" at the weight (clearly suggesting BB is #2 at 41 and could not unseat NL in the room via wrestle-off. Had NL unseated NL at 41 via the room [i.e., beating him in actual internal matches], he would not be #2 at 41.). It may well be that BB has been "tightening the gap" on NL since the start of the season (which was over a month ago) and it may even be fairly close at this point - however, it would be my guess that Cael told both of them to go ahead and battle it out at 41, but the loser of the battle should strongly consider a move to 49 as they would be our best option there based on what Cael has seen from both of these guys going against PSU's 49 lbers. (IOW, I think his comments yesterday were aimed at BB in this regard - i.e., BB you had your shot at 41 and it's now time for you to consider making a go at 49 in this free season of eligibility as that is what's best for the team).

 

[west2east]

Sitting Verk against Yaya and then having him do a extra against Chumbley tells me Cael was leaning towards Verk at 149.Maybe we see Bartlett at 149 even though he's small for the weight.Saw the box score Verk injury defaulted didn't see the match what happened?

 

[dunkej01]

Sitting Verk against Yaya and then having him do a extra against Chumbley tells me Cael was leaning towards Verk at 149.Maybe we see Bartlett at 149 even though he's small for the weight.Saw the box score Verk injury defaulted didn't see the match what happened?

Not sure I agree. Verk won the wrestle off so he got start 1. But we saw verk against ya ya before. We also saw verk against his IU opponent before and then got something more to go on now. But he still needs matches to be eligible for postseason so give an extra.

If bear claw had gotten the W against ya ya that is maybe a data point of saying more than the wrestle off matters for the starter spot.

Then go with the Cael comment BB and NL is the strongest lineup and it says even more to me verk isnt the #1 but maybe a 1.A.(b)

 

[1032004]

Is there a link to Cael’s comments? What exactly did he say?

 

[Ja1339]

I recall weeks ago that @smalls103 mentioned the possibility of Lee moving up to 149. Willie, any guess how this plays out going forward?

 

[El-Jefe]

Is there a link to Cael’s comments? What exactly did he say?

Can't give an exact quote but pretty close. Cael told Byers: we have to figure out the lineup, we need points, we have both Nick and Beau at 141, they're both very good, maybe they will both need to be in the lineup.

At the time it sounded like the coaches are evaluating but not necessarily close to deciding.

Still, considering how locked down Lorenzo is, that very hedgy comment is like bursting the flood gates.

 

[Lyons212]

I don't know his exact words but I did find it curious that Cael made public comments about the best lineup featuring both Nick and BB in it. We all know that Cael is traditionally quite reserved about what he discloses regarding lineup decisions, so for him to make a comment like that after the first day of competition for the team is very intriguing. I would tend to think he did it for a reason. What do people think?

I think Cael is simply trying to motivate a few individuals. Puts a bug in Bartlett's ear about moving to 149 and sends a message to Verk and everybody else at 149 to pick up their game if they want to be the starter at 149.

 

[tbay165]

Not sure I agree. Verk won the wrestle off so he got start 1. But we saw verk against ya ya before. We also saw verk against his IU opponent before and then got something more to go on now. But he still needs matches to be eligible for postseason so give an extra.

If bear claw had gotten the W against ya ya that is maybe a data point of saying more than the wrestle off matters for the starter spot.

Then go with the Cael comment BB and NL is the strongest lineup and it says even more to me verk isnt the #1 but maybe a 1.A.(b)

Verkleeren shouldn't even be an option.

 

[west2east]

Not sure I agree. Verk won the wrestle off so he got start 1. But we saw verk against ya ya before. We also saw verk against his IU opponent before and then got something more to go on now. But he still needs matches to be eligible for postseason so give an extra.

If bear claw had gotten the W against ya ya that is maybe a data point of saying more than the wrestle off matters for the starter spot.

Then go with the Cael comment BB and NL is the strongest lineup and it says even more to me verk isnt the #1 but maybe a 1.A.(b)

I'm going by the comment before the weekend that you could see starters get extra matches since they need 4. And Verk got 2 so going into the weekend Cael thought Verk was gonna be the guy.My opinion is Verk will not be the guy now.

 

[jack66]

In the 1st 6.5 minutes yesterday Rooks fired off 11 shots to Verk's 3 counters ... called for stalling once, could have been more. At some point a coach has to look past what is happening in the room and address what is happening in meets.

I think Cael sat Verk in the 2nd match because he has lost patience with Verk's conservative/defensive style. Cael talking publicly about getting Lee and Bartlett in the line-up confirms that notion for me.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

I think when one establishes clear longterm goals, changes to them based on circumstances beyond one's control shouldn't be made lightly.

We should keep in mind the apparent PSU wrestling team's core values of supporting individual athlete goals, and by an individual achieving his best, the team performs at its best.

Based on my understanding of available info, Nick was planning to Olympic RS this year (along with many others) before 2021 was declared a free year. Nick's goals include competing at OTT for a spot on Tokyo's team at 65kg. I just don't see Nick implementing changes to his plans and routines to make his body most competitive at 149lbs in March, only to adjust again to get down to 65kg in April. Surely his time, focus, and effort would be better spent on freestyle training.

We don't know what the future holds. Yet in the face of uncertainty, it seems best to make conscious decisions and carry on.

Reminds me of questions about Bo not eying 86kg and instead competing at 92kg on his way to 97kg. I see both the same. Like Bo, I believe Nick has a longterm plan and is chasing his dreams in the way he understands will maximize his chance of success.

 

[86PSUPaul]

Is there a link to Cael’s comments? What exactly did he say?

I do not have a link right to the actual quote, but here is the audio replay

vs. Northwestern University

Video: vs. Northwestern University. Wrestling at Northwestern University on 1/30/2021

gopsusports.com

Cael's comments start around 2:00:55, I believe his 141/149 comments are fairly early.