141-149 situation...

[El-Jefe]

I think Cael sat Verk in the 2nd match because he has lost patience with Verk's conservative/defensive style. Cael talking publicly about getting Lee and Bartlett in the line-up confirms that notion for me.

Cael would make a snap decision like that? History says he is much more measured.

Far more likely that Cael had planned all along to split the matches, to see what he has in both guys.

Also recall that the extra matches are concurrent -- Cael's not going to see how Bearclaw looks in an extra match when a varsity match is on the mat at the same time.

 

[PSU Mike]

I think when one establishes clear longterm goals, changes to them based on circumstances beyond one's control shouldn't be made lightly.

We should keep in mind the apparent PSU wrestling team's core values of supporting individual athlete goals, and by an individual achieving his best, the team performs at its best.

Best on my understanding of available info, Nick was planning to Olympic RS this year (along with many others) before 2021 was declared a free year. Nick's goals include competing at OTT for a spot on Tokyo's team at 65kg. I just don't see Nick implementing changes to his plans and routines to make his body most competitive at 149lbs in March, only to adjust again to get down to 65kg in April. Surely his time, focus, and effort would be better spent on freestyle training.

We don't know what the future holds. Yet in the face of uncertainty, it seems best to make conscious decisions and carry on.

Reminds me of questions about Bo not eying 86kg and instead competing at 92kg on his way to 97kg. I see both the same. Like Bo, I believe Nick has a longterm plan and is chasing his dreams in the way he understands will maximize his chance of success.

If Nick wants to put 100% toward 65, then 149 is by far the better path to that.

 

[1032004]

If Nick wants to put 100% toward 65, then 149 is by far the better path to that.

Yeah that’s what I was thinking. 2.3 less lbs to cut. Although if he doesn’t want to get too big for 149 then that could impact his success there.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

After a day to reflect I have to think it is something like this, and nothing to get too nervous about:

*Beau and Nick are both optimal at 141.
*Beau has clearly expressed a desire to have the opportunity to win the slot and Cael has agreed to provide him with that chance
*They either have not yet wrestled off or the wrestle off is a multi-match affair and has not been completed
*The loser will move to 149 and then wrestle off with the winner of that weight after their respective wrestle offs (Presumably Verk)
*There is no time to have the 141 entrant go up against Bear Claw, Gardner and Verk
*BB beating Verk is not a given by any stretch, Verk can keep the score low against anyone.
*IMO - At this stage of their mutual development there is no way Nick Lee will lose this wrestle off so "if" Beau wants to compete in the tourneys he will l need to move up and win the 149 spot
*Given where we are in the season, the situation at 141 and 149 has to resolve in the next 1-2 weeks
*It will be exceedingly difficult for Beau to add 5-8 lbs of good weight while at the same time training to peak for the NC, hence his performance in Bigs will be secondary to the NC plan, so don't expect 'great' things at Bigs.
*I believe Cael thinks that an undersized BB is our best chance for the most points at Nationals, so it will probably happen
* If by chance BB has no interest in moving up, I think Verk is in the lead but more wrestle offs, and dual starter rotation is likely before the Bigs final decision is made.

*Groundhog day - Take 7 months off and potentially deal with the exact same issue next year. We may know by August if one of the two relents and starts porking up.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

2.3 less lbs to cut

Seems to assume some large amount to cut now. I tend to assume Nick maintains nutrition and conditioning with very little weight cutting now.

if he doesn’t want to get too big

This is my point. Optimizing success at 149lb could conflict with optimizing success at 65kg. Surely, Nick, PSU, and the NLWC had and continues to have a well thought plan in place for Nick's nutrition and conditioning. I see no basis to second-guess or alter it now.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

After a day to reflect I have to think it is something like this, and nothing to get too nervous about:

*Beau and Nick are both optimal at 141.
*Beau has clearly expressed a desire to have the opportunity to win the slot and Cael has agreed to provide him with that chance
*They either have not yet wrestled off or the wrestle off is a multi-match affair and has not been completed
*The loser will move to 149 and then wrestle off with the winner of that weight after their respective wrestle offs (Presumably Verk)
*There is no time to have the 141 entrant go up against Bear Claw, Gardner and Verk
*BB beating Verk is not a given by any stretch, Verk can keep the score low against anyone.
*IMO - At this stage of their mutual development there is no way Nick Lee will lose this wrestle off so "if" Beau wants to compete in the tourneys he will l need to move up and win the 149 spot
*Given where we are in the season, the situation at 141 and 149 has to resolve in the next 1-2 weeks
*It will be exceedingly difficult for Beau to add 5-8 lbs of good weight while at the same time training to peak for the NC, hence his performance in Bigs will be secondary to the NC plan, so don't expect 'great' things at Bigs.
*I believe Cael thinks that an undersized BB is our best chance for the most points at Nationals, so it will probably happen
* If by chance BB has no interest in moving up, I think Verk is in the lead but more wrestle offs, and dual starter rotation is likely before the Bigs final decision is made.

*Groundhog day - Take 7 months off and potentially deal with the exact same issue next year. We may know by August if one of the two relents and starts porking up.

Pretty much agree with your take, but believe the competition at 41 has already taken place and been decided (hence Cael's comments yesterday - they were clearly aimed at influencing BB imho. BB choosing to remain at 41 on the bench in a free year of eligibility makes absolutely ZERO sense for either Bartlett or the team. That is what Cael is attempting to get through to BB imho. No way Cael makes those public comments if the competition at 41 is still ongoing imho.).

 

[tbay165]

Nick Lee doesn't have to "wrestle-off". That line of thinking is foolish. The coaches will work with him and Bartlett and make the best decision for them and the team. I would expect both of them to be in the lineup going forward.

 

[NittanyChris]

I think when one establishes clear longterm goals, changes to them based on circumstances beyond one's control shouldn't be made lightly.

We should keep in mind the apparent PSU wrestling team's core values of supporting individual athlete goals, and by an individual achieving his best, the team performs at its best.

Best on my understanding of available info, Nick was planning to Olympic RS this year (along with many others) before 2021 was declared a free year. Nick's goals include competing at OTT for a spot on Tokyo's team at 65kg. I just don't see Nick implementing changes to his plans and routines to make his body most competitive at 149lbs in March, only to adjust again to get down to 65kg in April. Surely his time, focus, and effort would be better spent on freestyle training.

We don't know what the future holds. Yet in the face of uncertainty, it seems best to make conscious decisions and carry on.

Reminds me of questions about Bo not eying 86kg and instead competing at 92kg on his way to 97kg. I see both the same. Like Bo, I believe Nick has a longterm plan and is chasing his dreams in the way he understands will maximize his chance of success.

This makes a lot of sense. IMO, I think this means Cael would really like BB, undersized or not, to be our 149.

 

[1032004]

Seems to assume some large amount to cut now. I tend to assume Nick maintains nutrition and conditioning with very little weight cutting now.

Even more reason to move up to 149 if 65 is the goal then. If he's not even cutting to get to 141, then he'll be small for 65. I don't think he is cutting a lot, but he's wrestled 141 for 5 years...I find it hard to believe he is cutting "very little."

This is my point. Optimizing success at 149lb could conflict with optimizing success at 65kg. Surely, Nick, PSU, and the NLWC had and continues to have a well thought plan in place for Nick's nutrition and conditioning. I see no basis to second-guess or alter it now.

Yeah, I guess if Cael/Lee previously decided 141 was the best move for his Olympic chances then they probably shouldn't change that. Obviously Cael knows what he's doing but I'd still say Lee wrestling 149 makes more sense if 65 is the goal and the NCAA season isn't much of a consideration. Only concern I can think of is injury risk by wrestling bigger guys, which may have been a factor.

 

[Lyons212]

This makes a lot of sense. IMO, I think this means Cael would really like BB, undersized or not, to be our 149.

Agree, Cael knows what he has in Verk, Gardner, Bear Claw, etc. Worse case with Bartlett at 149 is he gains valuable experience this year to be used in the future.

 

[jack66]

Murin's best showing at 141 was a 5th place at Bigs last year. He is already ranked 6th at 149 this year.

If we use Murin as the litmus test then Lee should easily be among the top 4 at 149. That said, Lee gets his choice.

 

[El-Jefe]

Murin's best showing at 141 was a 5th place at Bigs last year. He is already ranked 6th at 149 this year.

If we use Murin as the litmus test then Lee should easily be among the top 4 at 149. That said, Lee gets his choice.

I hear you but Murin is in no way a threshold for consideration.

If the coaches were to consider moving Lee to 149, the question is how he would fare against Sasso and O'Connor. That it. As far as the decision goes, everybody else is noise.

 

[NittanyChris]

I hear you but Murin is in no way a threshold for consideration.

If the coaches were to consider moving Lee to 149, the question is how he would fare against Sasso and O'Connor. That it. As far as the decision goes, everybody else is noise.

So allow me to ask this question: If you had to optimize Nick Lee’s chances of winning a title, would you rather have him face Eierman and Rivera at 41 or O’Connor and Sasso at 49?

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Its been repeated many times on here and folks insist Cael MAKES NO PROMISES to recruits and/or current team members.
If that is indeed true then why do most guys here automatically assume he is gonna let Nick Lee choose where he goes? It seems apparent neither BB or NL wants to make the jump, so why not solve this mano a mano, wrestle them off, even if its best 2 of 3 and let the best man decide.

 

[1032004]

Agree, Cael knows what he has in Verk, Gardner, Bear Claw, etc. Worse case with Bartlett at 149 is he gains valuable experience this year to be used in the future.

Does he really know what he has in Barraclaugh? I imagine he planned to have him wrestle Thomas because he probably didn't, and not sure how much he can conclude from 1 match (although I know he did have matches last year as a redshirt).

 

[jack66]

I hear you but Murin is in no way a threshold for consideration.

If the coaches were to consider moving Lee to 149, the question is how he would fare against Sasso and O'Connor. That it. As far as the decision goes, everybody else is noise.

Yep

To my untrained eye Eierman is more skilled than either Sasso or O'Connor. The question is how would Nick handle their size.

I guess I'll step aside and let coaches with a more trained eye make the decision.

 

[El-Jefe]

So allow me to ask this question: If you had to optimize Nick Lee’s chances of winning a title, would you rather have him face Eierman and Rivera at 41 or O’Connor and Sasso at 49?

That's the wrong question.

The correct question is which lineup combo maximizes points at nationals. Not where Nick personally scores more.

Some observations -- based upon a very small sample size:
- Nick would be the highest scorer at either weight.
- So far Beau has hardly been an unstoppable force at 141 against lesser competition: a regular decision over a backup 133; a regular decision over a backup 141; and a pin over a backup 125.
- Given Beau's results at 141, bumping him to 149 is very risky right now.
- We don't have evidence to say that Beau 141 > Verk/Bearclaw/Gardner 149.

We can also reasonably assume that undersized 149 Nick will score less bonus than 141 Nick.

Also, Beau is lowest on the learning curve, so his trajectory could be steepest among 141/149s. In the limited time remaining this year.

So the (141 Beau + 149 Nick) vs. (141 Nick + 149 TBD) question is about as clear as mud.

Not being in the room, I'd need more evidence to make that decision.

 

[Fatmarc]

Nick Lee will wrestle where he wants to wrestle as long as he doesn't lose a wrestle-off. He has earned that right and Cael will give it to him. IMHO it's pretty simple.

Plus we are more than one lineup move from beating Iowa right now. I want to see Nick Lee win a National Championship and don't agree that his chances at 149 are as good as they are at 141. He can certainly do well at 149 for sure but I worry about his size / strength against those bigger guys as he's not going to suddenly become a full sized 149 pounder overnight. Beau will have the same issue.

I agree here 100%. Best take I have read today...

NIck Lee should be the 141. He's more than earned that... That's where he has the best change to win a NC- that's what's ultimately best for the program.

I'll add I'm a huge Verk fan. Who wouldn't be? But for whatever reason, he seems to struggle to generate his own offense. He can hang with anyone and scrambles next level. If he's the dude, I'll keep cheering for him, but I admit I had sort of expected more offense from him yesterday.

I liked what I saw from Barraclough. Especially being a freshman... first match...

I like this team. They are young and fun. Lots of dudes I will enjoy rooting for in the next couple of years. Brooks looked great. Even though Snacks probably won't AA, it was good to see him look so good yesterday. Can this team beat Iowa or Michigan this year? I don't know. We seemed really young yesterday- but I'll trust in Cael and Company... Next couple of weeks are going to be fun to watch... Cheers my friends...

 

[El-Jefe]

From your reply, it sounds like you and I are in agreement in that the best PSU tournament scoring lineup would be BB at 41 and Nick at 49. However, it does seem as though Nick has earned the right to defend his position at 41 and if he Beats BB in wrestle offs, the more likely tournament lineup we see is Nick at 41 and BB at 49. Of course this is all conjecture at this point, but fair to say this is a reasonable assessment at this point in time?

At this point in time, probably.

But the good news is that the decision doesn't need to be made today.

 

[82bordeaux]

Even though Snacks probably won't AA, it was good to see him look so good yesterday.

The Snacks I saw yesterday looked every bit an AA.

 

[Fatmarc]

The Snacks I saw yesterday looked every bit an AA.

I would 100% be down for that...

 

[jack66]

"We have Nick Lee and Beau Bartlett both at 141 right now and both, obviously, are really good wrestlers ... and potentially we may need to get both those guys in the line-up."

Cael isn't going to offer that, unprompted, unless he's already given it considerable thought.

 

[Thenightking]

There is no way that Nick should even consider going up to 149 for team considerations. He has an incredible motor at 141, so the cut must not be too bad. With only a few matches,and who knows what the NCAA selection will look like, Nick needs to get his NCAA championship at 141 and not worry about team scoring.

 

[El-Jefe]

The Snacks I saw yesterday looked every bit an AA.

I'm in wait-and-see mode. His competition yesterday, well ... the scoreboard operator was the only one who got tested.

If he beats Hillger next weekend, that would be good evidence. Even more so if there's another dual and he gets a 2nd good HWT.

He's still the guy who beat Hemida, but that's not the same as beating 4 guys at nationals.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

Its been repeated many times on here and folks insist Cael MAKES NO PROMISES to recruits and/or current team members.
If that is indeed true then why do most guys here automatically assume he is gonna let Nick Lee choose where he goes? It seems apparent neither BB or NL wants to make the jump, so why not solve this mano a mano, wrestle them off, even if its best 2 of 3 and let the best man decide.

How do you know this hasn't happened? (i.e., starter at 41 for opening 2 duals was determined mano-a-mano). Based on what we saw (NL #1 and BB clear #2 this weekend) and Cael's comments subsequent to match regarding NL and BB both needing to be on mat for PSU.... I would say the evidence strongly suggests that the battle for #1 @41 has already been decided and Cael wants BB to take a shot at manning the 49 spot (what does BB have to lose in doing this during a free year of eligibility???).

 

[PAgeologist]

Nick Lee will wrestle where he wants to wrestle as long as he doesn't lose a wrestle-off. He has earned that right and Cael will give it to him. IMHO it's pretty simple.

Plus we are more than one lineup move from beating Iowa right now. I want to see Nick Lee win a National Championship and don't agree that his chances at 149 are as good as they are at 141. He can certainly do well at 149 for sure but I worry about his size / strength against those bigger guys as he's not going to suddenly become a full sized 149 pounder overnight. Beau will have the same issue.

I remember an interview with Cael a few years ago speaking of Nickal switching weights. He stated something along the lines of the top wrestlers choose where they want to be and everyone else fills in around them. If that still holds true, my guess is Lee stays at 41 and if BB wants to see the lineup, he hits 49 and deals with being undersized, assuming he gets the nod over the other 49s.

 

[7brwnpsu]

The Snacks I saw yesterday looked every bit an AA.

Bordeaux, where the hell have you been. I was waiting to hit the required 48 hours before filing the missing persons report.

You do understand that your gifs have replaced my Sunday Comics.

 

[PSUbluTX]

"We have Nick Lee and Beau Bartlett both at 141 right now and both, obviously, are really good wrestlers ... and potentially we may need to get both those guys in the line-up."

Cael isn't going to offer that, unprompted, unless he's already given it considerable thought.

Thanks for providing Cael's actual quote here rather than the various permutations that have been perpetuated in this thread. You beat me to it.

Nick needs to get his NCAA championship at 141 and not worry about team scoring.

I believe this is the most likely outcome, and with Cael's blessing. Unlike other wrestling programs, Cael has a long history of supporting individual wrestler's goals and aspirations even if they may not align with greater team goals. I have heard Cael make comments several times to the effect that he will not compel anyone to wrestle at a particular weight.

I remember an interview with Cael a few years ago speaking of Nickal switching weights. He stated something along the lines of the top wrestlers choose where they want to be and everyone else fills in around them. If that still holds true, my guess is Lee stays at 41 and if BB wants to see the lineup, he hits 49 and deals with being undersized, assuming he gets the nod over the other 49s.

Agreed. And I interpret Cael's comment about top wrestlers choosing where they want to wrestle to mean that the best will rise to the top and earn the starting slot through whatever version of wrestle-offs + competition performance + coach's insight he and his assistants have successfully relied on for the past decade.

 

[kingslayer_85]

I am watching Sasso now and tempted to beat the drum that callthestall (I think that is who made the argument) used to make that we should have recruited Sasso but won’t go there has that has been eloquently refuted by others

 

[dunkej01]

I am watching Sasso now and tempted to beat the drum that callthestall (I think that is who made the argument) used to make that we should have recruited Sasso but won’t go there has that has been eloquently refuted by others

Enchemedia looked awful

@Dar.of.Emur what is going on with him

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Career Freestyle wrestler relying on tOSU coaching to learn mat wrestling, what could possible go wrong?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Career Freestyle wrestler relying on tOSU coaching to learn mat wrestling, what could possible go wrong?

They need to bring in the Jordans for a consult - oh, wait

 

[dunkej01]

Career Freestyle wrestler relying on tOSU coaching to learn mat wrestling, what could possible go wrong?

Maryland wrestling is horrible. But this match

They need to bring in the Jordans for a consult - oh, wait

Rocky Jordan might want to make sure the student part of student athlete is his focus. This match is brutal

 

[PASLP2]

Do we know for certain who Verk defeated in the wrestle-off?

 

[McScoreley]

Another thing, isn't Bartlett a pretty strong kid? I imagine the weights program at a school like Wyoming Seminary is way above average from the normal high school.

I know powerlifting stats don't equate to wrestling wins always (Ohio State guys) but Beau has tweeted about repping 225 on the bench.



If he does go 149, he might not be the biggest but I really don't think he'll get outmuscled that easily (as long as he has his gas tank, which I assume he will since he won't be cutting) This is also a kid who entered the Senior US Open after his junior year in high school (and pinned our very own JC) and took a match against Bryce Meredith so I don't think he's one to worry about wrestling stronger people.

 

[Ja1339]

TIFWIW, but NL is listed on the PSU roster at 141, but BB is listed at 141/149.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Are we sure an undersized true freshman can beat Verk?

 

[NittanyChris]

Are we sure an undersized true freshman can beat Verk?

i don’t know about “sure”, but I think it’s a high probability that he can beat Verk. Just my 2 cents.

 

[tbay165]

Are we sure an undersized true freshman can beat Verk?

Whether he can beat Verk or not is irrelevant. It is whether he can fare better in competition. Coaches make these calls all the time.

 

[Biffkin]

So allow me to ask this question: If you had to optimize Nick Lee’s chances of winning a title, would you rather have him face Eierman and Rivera at 41 or O’Connor and Sasso at 49?

I like his chances at 149. Eierman at 141 is going to tough to get thru. I think he can out wrestle O'Conner and get through Sasso's D at 149. Eierman on the other hand counters so well, you never see someone finish an attack on him. He turns it into a scramble situation and he wins all of them.