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141-149 situation...

Good discussion, though it's highly doubtful anything has been decided. Still at least 5 matches, and hopefully 7, plus the extra bouts at each match. Cael & company won't rush this, nor should they. However, with the shortened season, there will be far fewer data points for the coaches to consider.

We should get a clue (actually it would be more than a clue) within the next week or two, as anyone that decides to ascend will have to start soon. I'm guessing we'll see it the weekend of the Iowa match. Doesn't mean whomever ascends will start, it just means they are taking a shot.

One element that hasn't been brought up yet is bonus points. Moving up in weight often reduces a wrestlers chances for bonus in tournaments (while also putting their placement points at risk), so it has to be part of the discussion. Bonus points can cover a couple of placement spots at another weight.
 
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Biffkin said:
I like his chances at 149. Eierman at 141 is going to tough to get thru. I think he can out wrestle O'Conner and get through Sasso's D at 149. Eierman on the other hand counters so well, you never see someone finish an attack on him. He turns it into a scramble situation and he wins all of them.
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NL finishes against him in freestyle.
 
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Biffkin said:
I like his chances at 149. Eierman at 141 is going to tough to get thru. I think he can out wrestle O'Conner and get through Sasso's D at 149. Eierman on the other hand counters so well, you never see someone finish an attack on him. He turns it into a scramble situation and he wins all of them.
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There are also guys like Demas who has beaten Lee, Rivera & Woods at 141 too. I think I would go as far as saying I think he has a better chance of winning 149 than 141. But no, maybe not as many bonus points.
 
I’m guessing Nick Lee is more than familiar with the weight, strength and pressure of an NCAA champ caliber opponent.
 
1032004 said:
Or more likely he doesn't care who else is in his weight class...
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Also very likely.

My point was that Zain is a different beast than Sammy Sasso, and if Nick isn’t getting his head kicked it going with Zain, he’ll be fine against Sasso and O’Connor.
 
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Biffkin said:
I like his chances at 149. Eierman at 141 is going to tough to get thru. I think he can out wrestle O'Conner and get through Sasso's D at 149. Eierman on the other hand counters so well, you never see someone finish an attack on him. He turns it into a scramble situation and he wins all of them.
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Maybe they can use the OSU dual as a trial run? Let Beau wrestle their 141 and Nick have a go with Sasso. If Beau puts up a good result and Nick beats Sasso, then maybe that's the way to go.

In the end, though, it's clearly Nick's choice. If he decides to take one for the team or if he's struggling to make weight (which I have no idea) and thinks he'd be better without the pressure of cutting, then that's the final decision for him alone to make.
 
Random4598375 said:
Maybe they can use the OSU dual as a trial run? Let Beau wrestle their 141 and Nick have a go with Sasso. If Beau puts up a good result and Nick beats Sasso, then maybe that's the way to go.

In the end, though, it's clearly Nick's choice. If he decides to take one for the team or if he's struggling to make weight (which I have no idea) and thinks he'd be better without the pressure of cutting, then that's the final decision for him alone to make.
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Not saying he will, but Cael could certainly tell Lee what weight he will be wrestling if he wanted to.
 
1032004 said:
Not saying he will, but Cael could certainly tell Lee what weight he will be wrestling if he wanted to.
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Sure he could. But that isn't his style. Just like when he wrestled, Cael got people to go where he wanted them without forcing the issue. He has a similar style in handling his wrestlers.
 
82bordeaux said:
Sure he could. But that isn't his style. Just like when he wrestled, Cael got people to go where he wanted them without forcing the issue. He has a similar style in handling his wrestlers.
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Agreed. As I said above, I don't think Lee cares who's in his weight class. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if Cael "convinced" him that 149 may actually be in his best interest (which I think it is). But of course also wouldn't be surprised to see him stay at 141 either..
 
If Nick had any desire to go to 149, he woulda started months ago when the free year was announced and he realized that he wouldnt be shirting. After several months going head to head with BoBar he surely knows something we dont.I just dont see it happening now, whether we or anyone wants it.
 
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Random4598375 said:
Maybe they can use the OSU dual as a trial run? Let Beau wrestle their 141 and Nick have a go with Sasso. If Beau puts up a good result and Nick beats Sasso, then maybe that's the way to go.

In the end, though, it's clearly Nick's choice. If he decides to take one for the team or if he's struggling to make weight (which I have no idea) and thinks he'd be better without the pressure of cutting, then that's the final decision for him alone to make.
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They aren't going to weigh Nick in at 141 and wrestle Sasso at 149. They could allow Nick to weigh 145 and compete against Sasso and still be in range of 141 for the Big10s.

Nick isn't going to 149. As someone pointed out, if Nick was going to 149 the process would have started months ago.
It is either going to be Beau or one of the current 149 pounders.
 
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So, let's say Nick goes at 141 for the remainder of this year, and BB bumps up to 149. What about the future?

Do we think BB stays at 149? Or, take a RS next year, Nick graduates, and with SVN already in town, come back down to 141 with SVN at 149 for the 2022-2023 season?

Four years of those two at 141-149 wouldn't be a terrible thing. Steen-Howard-BB-SVN from 125 to 149 would make for a pretty good start. You'd be hard pressed to find any team that will take more than one match of four from them, if they develop well.
 
AndEEss said:
So, let's say Nick goes at 141 for the remainder of this year, and BB bumps up to 149. What about the future?

Do we think BB stays at 149? Or, take a RS next year, Nick graduates, and with SVN already in town, come back down to 141 with SVN at 149 for the 2022-2023 season?

Four years of those two at 141-149 wouldn't be a terrible thing. Steen-Howard-BB-SVN from 125 to 149 would make for a pretty good start. You'd be hard pressed to find any team that will take more than one match of four from them, if they develop well.
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I don't know. I really like the lineup of Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard
 
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AndEEss said:
So, let's say Nick goes at 141 for the remainder of this year, and BB bumps up to 149. What about the future?

Do we think BB stays at 149? Or, take a RS next year, Nick graduates, and with SVN already in town, come back down to 141 with SVN at 149 for the 2022-2023 season?

Four years of those two at 141-149 wouldn't be a terrible thing. Steen-Howard-BB-SVN from 125 to 149 would make for a pretty good start. You'd be hard pressed to find any team that will take more than one match of four from them, if they develop well.
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Nick will be the 141 next year also.
 
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And I presume that hypothetically (assuming everyone uses the "free year") that RBY could potentially bump up to 141 for his last season. Although I don't know this to be the case, I'm guessing that perhaps the 133 ship will have sailed for Bartlett, so we'd likely still have 2 really great options at 141 and someone's likely going to have to find another home, whether that's at 133, 149 or whatever.

Hoosier Lion said:
Nick will be the 141 next year also.
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nitlion6 said:
Nick isn't going to 149. As someone pointed out, if Nick was going to 149 the process would have started months ago.
It is either going to be Beau or one of the current 149 pounders.
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If Lee/Cael truly decided the main focus was Olympic Trials and that 141 was best for that, then yes.

If there were any team implications in that decision then I’m not so sure. For one, I don’t think it was really known what weight Eierman would be going. Cael also may have been hopeful a clear frontrunner at 149 may have emerged (which of course can still happen).

Most people didn’t think they weren’t going to pull Brooks’ redshirt last year too...
 
nitlion6 said:
They aren't going to weigh Nick in at 141 and wrestle Sasso at 149. They could allow Nick to weigh 145 and compete against Sasso and still be in range of 141 for the Big10s.

Nick isn't going to 149. As someone pointed out, if Nick was going to 149 the process would have started months ago.
It is either going to be Beau or one of the current 149 pounders.
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Right, if they want to have him wrestle Sasso, he wouldn't be required to make weight for 141. They would just weigh in BB at 141. I think it's pretty clear the original plan was for Lee to wrestle 141 all season, but plans can change. If they do this vs OSU and he beats Sasso, especially if it's comfortably, maybe they change the plan since it would be pretty clear that Lee would be the #1 ranked 149 and have just as good of a chance to be NC at that weight. Obviously, if he were to lose to Sasso, I'm sure he would be back at 141 for the B1Gs.

Anyway, this is all just hypothetical. I obviously don't have any particular insight as to whether it's something they might actually consider or not. I just personally would love to see it because I think BB vs Echemendia and Lee vs Sasso would both be terrific matches and a great test for both guys.
 
1032004 said:
If Lee/Cael truly decided the main focus was Olympic Trials and that 141 was best for that, then yes.

If there were any team implications in that decision then I’m not so sure. For one, I don’t think it was really known what weight Eierman would be going. Cael also may have been hopeful a clear frontrunner at 149 may have emerged (which of course can still happen).

Most people didn’t think they weren’t going to pull Brooks’ redshirt last year too...
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Nobody will lose a RS year this year - it's a free year of eligibility. Why people are ignoring Cael's public statement that PSU's best team probably needs both NL and BB on the mat is rather bewildering. Cael rarely makes public statements of any kind in regards to these situations, let alone one that is explicit as the one made in the post-match press conference following PSU's first action of the season! It's pretty clear imho who Cael's words were aimed at influencing - BB. (i.e., It's a free year of eligibility Young man - it's best for you and the team to take a run at the 49 spot.... but ultimately you have to be the one to make the decision and go after that objective.).
 
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CJFisJoePaII said:
Nobody will lose a RS year this year - it's a free year of eligibility. Why people are ignoring Cael's public statement that PSU's best team probably needs both NL and BB on the mat is rather bewildering. Cael rarely makes public statements of any kind in regards to these situations, let alone one that is explicit as the one made in the post-match press conference following PSU's first action of the season! It's pretty clear imho who Cael's words were aimed at influencing - BB. (i.e., It's a free year of eligibility Young man - it's best for you and the team to take a run at the 49 spot.... but ultimately you have to be the one to make the decision and go after that objective.).
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But then I guess the question (which I know others discussed earlier) becomes is an undersized true freshman Bartlett at 149 really going to give you many more points than Verk, Barraclaugh, etc? Probably, but likely not by much if any.
 
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1032004 said:
But then I guess the question becomes is an undersized true freshman Bartlett at 149 really going to give you many more points than Verk, Barraclaugh, etc? Probably, but likely not by much if any.
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If Verk is going to give us 0 at NCAAs which is what I expect since he gave us 0 at Big Tens last year then it's a wash anyways.

In a normal year when you have to consider eligibility, yes, I think Cael for the most part keeps his freshman in redshirt unless he sees major NCAA points needed (Lee, Zain, Hall, Brooks) Zain was very undersized and likely sacrificed being a 4 timer for the 2014 title.

But this year when it doesn't count regardless? I don't see why you don't just get Bartlett experience.
 
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1032004 said:
But then I guess the question (which I know others discussed earlier) becomes is an undersized true freshman Bartlett at 149 really going to give you many more points than Verk, Barraclaugh, etc? Probably, but likely not by much if any.
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Based on Cael's comment in the post-match pc this weekend, it strongly suggests he tends disagree with you.... and Cael sees BB go up against quality 49 lbers everyday in the room... unlike your opinion based on nothing but "your opinion".
 
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McScoreley said:
If Verk is going to give us 0 at NCAAs which is what I expect since he gave us 0 at Big Tens last year then it's a wash anyways.

In a normal year when you have to consider eligibility, yes, I think Cael for the most part keeps his freshman in redshirt unless he sees major NCAA points needed (Lee, Zain, Hall, Brooks) Zain was very undersized and likely sacrificed being a 4 timer for the 2014 title.

But this year when it doesn't count regardless? I don't see why you don't just get Bartlett experience.
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Come on...

We all know Zain was forced to wrestle his true freshman year so that he'd take a few losses and Cael's status as the only undefeated four timer was preserved.
 
Lyons212 said:
About 10 years ago Cael told Jake Kemerer that his style would not be successful at this level of wrestling. Jake never changed his style, transferred to Lock Haven and never came close to living up to his high school ranking.

I would not be surprised if Cael has had that same conversation with Verk. By no means am I questioning his effort or dedication...but the team needs to see more of the Verk from the 2019 Micah Jordan match than what the team saw today against Rooks.
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Verk was ranked 10th or so this preseason. Everyone acts like he's chopped liver.

Having said that Lee should move up. He should want to imo. Riveria is tiny and is ranked top three. I think lee wins 149 just as easy if not easier then 141.
 
El-Jefe said:
Cael would make a snap decision like that? History says he is much more measured.

Far more likely that Cael had planned all along to split the matches, to see what he has in both guys.

Also recall that the extra matches are concurrent -- Cael's not going to see how Bearclaw looks in an extra match when a varsity match is on the mat at the same time.
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That was only during the tri-meet. And not sure all tri-meets are run the same. Most have had extra matches follow the Dual so far this year.
 
billrag said:
And I presume that hypothetically (assuming everyone uses the "free year") that RBY could potentially bump up to 141 for his last season. Although I don't know this to be the case, I'm guessing that perhaps the 133 ship will have sailed for Bartlett, so we'd likely still have 2 really great options at 141 and someone's likely going to have to find another home, whether that's at 133, 149 or whatever.
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Why would RBY want to bump to 141 to be Nick’s backup?
 
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RBY is a year behind Nick, right? So, assuming that they both take advantage of the free year, RBY could potentially bump to 141 for 2022/23 after Nick is gone. I'm not suggesting that I think he should or that he will, only that it's another possibility.
 
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bowandarrow said:
Beau just won 13 to 6.

1+3=4
3+6=9

He's going 149. #Math
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What is your last sentence based on? Something Beau or Cael said after the match? Or do you mean he's going to go at 49 in one of the extra matches? Confused by statement, could you clarify...
 
CJFisJoePaII said:
What is your last sentence based on? Something Beau or Cael said after the match? Or do you mean he's going to go at 49 in one of the extra matches? Confused by statement, could you clarify...
Click to expand...

BIT4TTM.gif
 
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CJFisJoePaII said:
What is your last sentence based on? Something Beau or Cael said after the match? Or do you mean he's going to go at 49 in one of the extra matches? Confused by statement, could you clarify...
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Hes a clairvoyant and can see things from obscure numbers, randomly assembled with no tangible meaning to anyone but himself.
 
PSUbluTX said:
John Smith take umbrage at this remark and demands you drink a 6-pack of Slim Fast as penance.
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Given that a six pack of Slim Fast is two weeks of sustenance in Stillwater, drinking a six all at once would be a reward, not penance.
 
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