Obviously if you are not good enough to make the lineup your first year, you can red-shirt. Some guys make it quite clear that they are wrestling for 4 years and moving on. Those guys, if good enough start first year. RBY was one of those.
157: Barraclaugh or Lee?
- Thread starter Delcolion915
- Start date
I miss Q. Love watching those standing cradles
The shirt or not decision is multi faceted, and just yet one more area where Cael excels. Our top recruits, whether it be Facundo, Haynes, Nolf or Nickel were/are all good enough to start day 1.
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I am so sick of these Grey Shirts and Red shirts ! If they are good enough let Them Wrestle!! Kids don't want to stay in college for 6 freaking years! A lot of the better wrestlers may want to take an Olympic year in 2024 France!
I don't give a crap if we " Need" them to win a National Championship> Lets wrestle everyone and CRUSH the competition!!!!
I don't give a crap if we " Need" them to win a National Championship> Lets wrestle everyone and CRUSH the competition!!!!
I think skipping senior year was Levi’s decision, not some mastermind plan by Cael. Greyshirting is something Cael offers to maximize a kids’ scholarship rather than some intention to double redshirt a kid. You can use it as a de facto redshirt. Beard very much had a chance to fight for the spot in 2020 but showed he wasn’t ready.
Most of these kids who are good enough to be in the lineup and want to be in the lineup, will be in the lineup. Those are the kids who say, I am doing 4 years of college and moving on. Others are obviously more willing to take a redshirt or greyshirt.
This is going to sound really crazy: when choosing their paths, perhaps the wrestlers don't take this into account.
I'm going to make a crazy prediction: Joe Lee takes the next step, crashes the lineup, and there is no need to bring up Haines...
Watching the Big Ten short video documentary on the Lee family always has me rooting for all of them to succeed. The bond the brothers have (and the example set by their dad) is truly something special. I think they all believe if they stay the course, even if it's only one or two years in the lineup, they can all accomplish what Nick did.
Also, I laughed at the part where Joe said about discipline with their dad "If you get in trouble or don't listen, you're doing push ups and sit ups .... yeah I was doing a lot of pushups and situps"
Also, I laughed at the part where Joe said about discipline with their dad "If you get in trouble or don't listen, you're doing push ups and sit ups .... yeah I was doing a lot of pushups and situps"
Their 3 reason to red shirt, 1- your blocked by a better wrestler,2- you physically
not mature enough for the weight, 3 the coach is punting the year to get all wrestlers on the same page. Haynes has none of these reasons to red shirt.
not mature enough for the weight, 3 the coach is punting the year to get all wrestlers on the same page. Haynes has none of these reasons to red shirt.
4) Not ready to win the weight and your team is so far ahead of the pack that they don't need you.
for argument's sake.
Ding ding ding! Not sure if that's the case this year, but Cael has brought home 9 championships in the last 12 years. Maybe we should trust his decision, whatever his reason may be. It's been working out pretty well so far.
For the sake of argument, who at 157 is so dominant that Haines could not beat them? Andonian? Robb? A rehabbing O’Connor?
The truth is 157 is WIDE OPEN and winnable for 10-12 guys. Haines is one of those 10-12, IMHO.
For argument's sake:
5. Physical development.
6. Skill development/freestyle year.
7. Personal development.
8. Focus on academics.
9. Wrestler wants to compete in his best 4 years, not his first 4 years.
10. Get healthy.
Not up for debate:
11. What the coaches decide.
Not a factor: what the fans want.
Great. Bring logic to the thread. We all needed that lol. Just kidding. Your point makes the most sense.
With the fear of being called pedantic, since 2020 was cancelled it's really 9 of the last 11 years that had a championship.
To clarify one issue…because we’re having a discussion of whether Haines will, could or should wrestle this season, it is IN NO WAY questioning the judgement of Cael and the best coaching staff around. This really should go without saying, but reading some of these posts, it seems like it needs to be said. It’s all just harmless offseason banter and everyone has an opinion, of course. This is, after all, part of the fun of a wrestling board, is it not?
Having said all that, I’m firmly in the FREE LEVI camp! 😂
Having said all that, I’m firmly in the FREE LEVI camp! 😂
I think you are right that 157 is wide open this year and he would be in the mix but being in the mix to means he could very well win it all or he could place 8th. I definitely think he AA’s but if he redshirts and gets another full year in the PSU room I truly think he comes in and wins 4 straight. I would rather he redshirt and have a really good chance of winning 4 then being an AA as a true freshman and then winning 3 similar to what Zain did. Obviously just because he redshirts doesn’t mean that he for sure wins 4 but the odds are definitely higher. The other thing is that Levi probably isn’t needed to win the team title this year. If he was it would be a different situation.
If he goes this year he could win 4 at 4 different weights, ohh and be undefeated and un-scored upon.
Crazy I know but do you disagree? About as crazy as your Braxton Amos predictions? I know it’s a lot to put on a kid who has never even stepped on the mat for PSU but I seriously think he is as special as anyone who has come through and he is going do incredible things. Just my two cents
Of course he was. 'Ready' is a relative term. I don't live in the world where every top recruit we get must be a finalist contender out of the gate.
Would Alex have AA'd last year, unlikely, but he was more ready to win duals than all of our alternatives. He was clearly our best 165 last year, which means he was ready to start.
Do I agree with the decision to shirt him, and let him develop, 100% yes.
PS - Pretty much every single kid will benefit from a redshirt year. That is far from an Einstein observation. Was Nick Lee ready, sure he was. Could Nick Lee have been a 3xer with another year? Just maybe.
Were Nolf and Nickel ready their freshman years? Of course they were, same argument. I think we all agree Cael has 'the' plan, and we all just pontificate.
We can only hope Facundo, having shirted, delivers even a slight resemblance to their careers and we will all be very happy.
I believe Haines can and will wrestle under the new RS rules. I believe whether he will or won't at NCAAs depends almost entirely on his will and whether the coaches think it's in his and the team's mutual best overall interest.
I firmly believe Levi controls his own freedom, so he doesn't need to be freed.
Statistically speaking, this is not obvious to me. Kyle Dake is a four-timer who wrestled as a true freshman without a gray shirt or taking any RS. Cael and Logan both redshirted their true freshman year.
We may add Spencer and Yianni to the Cael-Logan grouping at the end of the year, albeit with injury and Covid year asterisks. But absent injury and Covid, Spencer and Yianni very well could've been added to the Kyle Dake grouping of non-RS/Gray shirt/Olympic RS four-timers. Additionally, Pat Smith, the first four-tiner, didn't wrestle in 1993 (his true Senior year), because he took his RS during an Ok St NCAA sanction year rather than a free transfer to ASU. Otherwise Pat Smith too could've been added to the Kyle Dake grouping.
So, percentage-wise of wrestlers who wrestled four years and either started as a true freshman without gray shirting or true RS freshman wrestlers (with or without gray shirting), I doubt the statistics point to taking a red shirt as an obvious advantage to becoming a four-time NCAA D1 wrestling champion.
I believe other factors, some beyond one's control (e.g., competition in the weight class, injury, wrestling thru injury, stylistic challenges, weight cutting approach, and differences in nutrition and recovery approach), could very well have as much if not more statistical significance.
Dare I say, it may even take a near "generational talent" to achieve the feat. It's probably too early to hail Levi as such.
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How do you know this (the bolded part)?
Creighton Edsall went 10-3 in duals last year, only losing to Anthony Valencia, Julian Ramirez, and Austin Yant. All top-15ish guys.
What in Facundo's results (or maybe your own expert scouting) last year make it "clear" he would have picked up victories against those guys?
looks like Amos went from winning 4 to me saying he wont win any!!its a big step from high school to big time college!
Facundo lost in his first event (Clarion Open) to Maryland's John Martin Best, who finished the year 5-4.
So no, Facundo was not clearly our best option at 165 last year, certainly not at the beginning of the season.
The one thing that stands out about Cael among many is how he balances team goals with individual wrestler's goals. Cael seems to put team 1st and wrestlers a close 2nd, in that order.
The Levi Haines situation will be handled well by Cael. When Zain started as a true freshman in 2014, we had just graduated Q and there was going to be a big points gap missing, even with DT and ER. We needed Zain's points along with Gwiz's defeat of Tony Nelson to keep Minny at 2nd. I can't forget the heart shown and points scored by Jimmy English either.
Is Haines the best wrestler at 157? Probably.
Do we need his points for a National championship?
Probably not.
I'm just a fan and not a coach but Cael will make the best decision for all things PSU wrestling. History has proven that fact.
The Levi Haines situation will be handled well by Cael. When Zain started as a true freshman in 2014, we had just graduated Q and there was going to be a big points gap missing, even with DT and ER. We needed Zain's points along with Gwiz's defeat of Tony Nelson to keep Minny at 2nd. I can't forget the heart shown and points scored by Jimmy English either.
Is Haines the best wrestler at 157? Probably.
Do we need his points for a National championship?
Probably not.
I'm just a fan and not a coach but Cael will make the best decision for all things PSU wrestling. History has proven that fact.
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You’re comparing Levi to all-time greats like Cael, Dake, Spencer, etc. I think that is way off base and an irrelevant comparison at this point. No one here is putting Levi in that camp right now. Could he get there? Who knows? I suppose anything is possible.
My point is that 157 is a weak class this year and Levi could immediately be one of many contenders for a title in that weight class.
I don't believe I compared him at all. In fact, I did the opposite.
To clarify my point, when anyone argues RSing is a consideration to help a wrestler become a four-timer, that's exactly what they implicitly are doing (comparing potential to all time greats' achievement).
Granted there are benefits and reasons to RS a true freshman, but increasing odds to become a four-timer, if even considered plausible, should be very low on the reasoning totem pole.
