2020 B1G Tournament

[El-Jefe]

Yes Harley's post was unnecessary and not discounting BUT most of Matter's agenda is as well. Posting mainly Rutgers related content on a PSU board would get annoying to me as a fan. Matter I'm also not worried about what you say about our trajectory so no need for me to redirect my focus.

Those are not equivalent.

 

[Bms22]

Those are not equivalent.

Agreed. Simply highlighting Matter being quite unnecessary as well.

 

[matter7172]

Because I pointed out Rutgers came in 12th place in a 14 team field at B1Gs, despite what has historically been a significant advantage for home teams? That's just a fact. And, btw, I predicted before last season ended that Rutgers was going to be in the bottom four of the B1Gs in 2020.

 

[kingslayer_85]

"can't we all just get along"

 

[Bms22]

Because I pointed out Rutgers came in 12th place in a 14 team field at B1Gs, despite what has historically been a significant advantage for home teams? That's just a fact. And, btw, I predicted before last season ended that Rutgers was going to be in the bottom four of the B1Gs in 2020.

Rutgers fans basically predicted this themselves. Rebuilding from a historic high with more frosh starting than almost any other year will yield this result without blue chippers. Don't attempt a justification statement of "Why me" as you push and push this stuff and expect no retort. Your agenda is unnecessary. Move on

 

[matter7172]

Rutgers fans basically predicted this themselves. Rebuilding from a historic high with more frosh starting than almost any other year will yield this result without blue chippers. Don't attempt a justification statement of "Why me" as you push and push this stuff and expect no retort. Your agenda is unnecessary. Move on

Two of Rutgers' highly-touted freshmen (Aguilar, a 3-time Cali finalist, and Janzer, a two-time NJ champ) got one point each in the B1G tourney. Aragona, touted by many on the Rutgers board as a sure fire four-time AA, couldn't even get top 8 in the B1G tourney. Suriano and AA were a fresh coat of paint on a rust bucket, distracting everyone (even some wrestling media members) from the dramatic ongoing decline in the program.

The 3 freshmen mentioned above (two of whom were redshirt freshmen) seem to be "blue chippers". They did nada.

If Alvarez hadn't transferred, it would have been even worse.

 

[ss7]

Two of Rutgers' highly-touted freshmen (Aguilar, a 3-time Cali finalist, and Janzer, a two-time NJ champ) got one point each in the B1G tourney. Aragona, touted by many on the Rutgers board as a sure fire four-time AA, couldn't even get top 8 in the B1G tourney. Suriano and AA were a fresh coat of paint on a rust bucket, distracting everyone (even some wrestling media members) from the dramatic ongoing decline in the program.

The 3 freshmen mentioned above (two of whom were redshirt freshmen) seem to be "blue chippers". They did nada.

If Alvarez hadn't transferred, it would have been even worse.

I'm just curious...what is your expected end game here?

Do we all need to collectively acknowledge that Rutgers is not a great wrestling program?

 

[nitlion6]

Perennial top 10.

 

[Dogwelder]

I'm just curious...what is your expected end game here?

Do we all need to collectively acknowledge that Rutgers is not a great wrestling program?

I’m very happy to support Matter in this matter, his hobby, and say, “Dammit Matter, you’re right! These guys aren’t good.”

 

[matter7172]

I'm just curious...what is your expected end game here?

Do we all need to collectively acknowledge that Rutgers is not a great wrestling program?

There is no end game. But acknowledgement the Rutgers isn't a "great" program is a start. "Good" would be a step up. Rutgers people who visit here could also acknowledge that since the program had 10 wrestlers finish in the top 8 in the B1G tournament in 2016, had only 4 in the top 8 in 2019 and only 2 (a sixth and a seventh) in 2020, it's not headed in the right direction. They finished fifth in the B1Gs in 2016 (over 100 points, btw) and 12th in 2020. They are trending downward. Hard.

 

[ss7]

There is no end game. But acknowledgement the Rutgers isn't a "great" program is a start. "Good" would be a step up. Rutgers people who visit here could also acknowledge that since the program had 10 wrestlers finish in the top 8 in the B1G tournament in 2016, had only 4 in the top 8 in 2019 and only 2 (a sixth and a seventh) in 2020, it's not headed in the right direction. They finished fifth in the B1Gs in 2016 (over 100 points, btw) and 12th in 2020. They are trending downward. Hard.

Most of the Rutgers people I see are here to argue with you and your everlasting quest to continue beating this particular very very dead horse.

If your goal is get rid of Rutgers people coming here to defend their program, I think there's a pretty obvious solution staring us all directly in the face.

 

[nitlion6]

Most of the Rutgers people I see are here to argue with you and your everlasting quest to continue beating this particular very very dead horse.

If your goal is get rid of Rutgers people coming here to defend their program, I think there's a pretty obvious solution staring us all directly in the face.

I think Matter just likes reminding harddcore Rutgers fans that they are not very good. Rutgers athletics serves a very important purpose. They take the sting of finishing last away from other programs.

 

[Bms22]

There is no end game. But acknowledgement the Rutgers isn't a "great" program is a start. "Good" would be a step up. Rutgers people who visit here could also acknowledge that since the program had 10 wrestlers finish in the top 8 in the B1G tournament in 2016, had only 4 in the top 8 in 2019 and only 2 (a sixth and a seventh) in 2020, it's not headed in the right direction. They finished fifth in the B1Gs in 2016 (over 100 points, btw) and 12th in 2020. They are trending downward. Hard.

Pick what you want to focus on. Is BIG or NCAA's more important or both? NCAA finishes in last 5 years- 15th, 19th, 11th, 9th, N/A. You mental gymnastics your way through some obscure points over the years and I love the time you waste to prove them. "Good" is something we have surpassed and maybe this is what bothers you.

 

[kingslayer_85]

There is no end game. But acknowledgement the Rutgers isn't a "great" program is a start. "Good" would be a step up. Rutgers people who visit here could also acknowledge that since the program had 10 wrestlers finish in the top 8 in the B1G tournament in 2016, had only 4 in the top 8 in 2019 and only 2 (a sixth and a seventh) in 2020, it's not headed in the right direction. They finished fifth in the B1Gs in 2016 (over 100 points, btw) and 12th in 2020. They are trending downward. Hard.

at least there coach was paid a nice bonus for the NCAA champions they produced. if i recall correctly

 

[matter7172]

Most of the Rutgers people I see are here to argue with you and your everlasting quest to continue beating this particular very very dead horse.

If your goal is get rid of Rutgers people coming here to defend their program, I think there's a pretty obvious solution staring us all directly in the face.

I've been following Rutgers wrestling for a long time and have been a season ticket holder in the past. I was at the first RAC wrestling match against Lehigh many years ago. I thought Goodale was doing a pretty good job with the program (quietly) - through the 2016 season. They beat Cornell and Nebraska in dual meets that year, which was impressive. They did kind of shit the bed at nationals in 2016, but still. It seemed like something to really build on.

Then Goodale seemed to decide to become PT Barnum reborn - making outlandish statements about the strength of the program and creating narratives for the fans that were, to put it mildly, not in sync with reality. Even Pritzlaff joined in, guaranteeing a team trophy in Pittsburgh in 2019. The fans swallowed and regurgitated those narratives without question, even though the results were going downhill. And the results are not debatable.

You see it in this thread. The narrative this year was that "we're young and you can't expect much". Never mind that the freshmen were mostly redshirt freshmen and were ranked highly as recruits. There is no excuse for how Janzer, Aguilar and Aragona did as freshmen. When a three time Cali finalist gets one point at B1Gs in his redshirt freshman season; a two time NJ champ does the same; and a top 5 overall recruit does as poorly as he did his freshman year, there is something really wrong with the program. If it was one of the three falling on their face, it's one thing. But it's all three ....

Pick what you want to focus on. Is BIG or NCAA's more important or both? NCAA finishes in last 5 years- 15th, 19th, 11th, 9th, N/A. You mental gymnastics your way through some obscure points over the years and I love the time you waste to prove them. "Good" is something we have surpassed and maybe this is what bothers you.

It's not mental gymnastics, it's just looking at *all* the data and team finishes at NCAAs (unless it's something like top 5 over a period of years) isn't much of a reliable indicator.

15th was 2016. 2018 was because of one wrestler with little else and was the same as the B1G performance, 11th. 2019 was because of 2 wrestlers and little else. When they were gone, the cupboard was empty - as was painfully obvious this past season.

Lots of programs that are not "good" have had a few individuals succeed, but that success is usually, if not always, fools gold - especially when the program doesn't have more spread-out success across the team and a drop-off from those exceptions. In Rutgers' case, AA and Suriano were pretty much generational recruits/transfers. If you can somehow replicate the two best wrestlers in NJ high school history and get them to Rutgers, you can meet your "success" level of 2019. The problem is they are the two best in history and until someone comes along who is as good, you are out of luck. Look at it this way - Joe Dubuque, Jordan Burroughs, Donnie Pritzlaff, Damion Hahn and Matt Valenti, wrestlers who can't equal the high school resume of AA - went to programs other than Rutgers and won 2 individual titles in college. AA needed an extra year to win one. Mekhi Lewis won as a freshman at VT.

You have to look at the totality of the picture - dual meets (has Rutgers beaten a top ten team - and I mean top ten at the end of the year - in the last four years?); B1G performances by individual and team (team has been 5th, 8th, 11th, 8th and 12th from 2016-2020) ; NCAA performances by individuals and teams. When you do, you see the Rutgers is in the lower half to bottom 4 of the B1G programs - below average to well below average with the exception of 2015-16. I guess that's "good".

But you are correct, I do kind of waste my time assembling the data - because people cling to straw man arguments instead of looking objectively at a broad range of data.

 

[PSUer1989]

I've been following Rutgers wrestling for a long time and have been a season ticket holder in the past. I was at the first RAC wrestling match against Lehigh many years ago. I thought Goodale was doing a pretty good job with the program (quietly) - through the 2016 season. They beat Cornell and Nebraska in dual meets that year, which was impressive. They did kind of shit the bed at nationals in 2016, but still. It seemed like something to really build on.

Then Goodale seemed to decide to become PT Barnum reborn - making outlandish statements about the strength of the program and creating narratives for the fans that were, to put it mildly, not in sync with reality. Even Pritzlaff joined in, guaranteeing a team trophy in Pittsburgh in 2019. The fans swallowed and regurgitated those narratives without question, even though the results were going downhill. And the results are not debatable.

You see it in this thread. The narrative this year was that "we're young and you can't expect much". Never mind that the freshmen were mostly redshirt freshmen and were ranked highly as recruits. There is no excuse for how Janzer, Aguilar and Aragona did as freshmen. When a three time Cali finalist gets one point at B1Gs in his redshirt freshman season; a two time NJ champ does the same; and a top 5 overall recruit does as poorly as he did his freshman year, there is something really wrong with the program. If it was one of the three falling on their face, it's one thing. But it's all three ....



It's not mental gymnastics, it's just looking at *all* the data and team finishes at NCAAs (unless it's something like top 5 over a period of years) isn't much of a reliable indicator.

15th was 2016. 2018 was because of one wrestler with little else and was the same as the B1G performance, 11th. 2019 was because of 2 wrestlers and little else. When they were gone, the cupboard was empty - as was painfully obvious this past season.

Lots of programs that are not "good" have had a few individuals succeed, but that success is usually, if not always, fools gold - especially when the program doesn't have more spread-out success across the team and a drop-off from those exceptions. In Rutgers' case, AA and Suriano were pretty much generational recruits/transfers. If you can somehow replicate the two best wrestlers in NJ high school history and get them to Rutgers, you can meet your "success" level of 2019. The problem is they are the two best in history and until someone comes along who is as good, you are out of luck. Look at it this way - Joe Dubuque, Jordan Burroughs, Donnie Pritzlaff, Damion Hahn and Matt Valenti, wrestlers who can't equal the high school resume of AA - went to programs other than Rutgers and won 2 individual titles in college. AA needed an extra year to win one. Mekhi Lewis won as a freshman at VT.

You have to look at the totality of the picture - dual meets (has Rutgers beaten a top ten team - and I mean top ten at the end of the year - in the last four years?); B1G performances by individual and team (team has been 5th, 8th, 11th, 8th and 12th from 2016-2020) ; NCAA performances by individuals and teams. When you do, you see the Rutgers is in the lower half to bottom 4 of the B1G programs - below average to well below average with the exception of 2015-16. I guess that's "good".

But you are correct, I do kind of waste my time assembling the data - because people cling to straw man arguments instead of looking objectively at a broad range of data.

I don't think most but the most ardent RU fans will debate the numbers. The rest of us just debate the merit of this ongoing discussion on a PSU board. At some point, agree to disagree and move on.