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2021 Olympic Wrestling Match Thread and USA Wrestlers.

Hildebrandt goes for the 9th USA wrestling medal now.

The aggressor, Hildebrandt, gets put on the passivity clock. UKR gets the point.

Hildebrandt gets the last-second takedown, leads 2-1 after 1.

2 minutes to go.

1 minute to go.

Takedown Hildebrandt, leads 4-1.

And another for a 6-1 lead, followed by a bunch of turns for the 12-1 tech.
 
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tikk10 said:
I feel like I've made this comment a few dozen times but shooting in FS is not what determines passivity calls, it's about holding the center and engaging more. If there's no real action the guy who'll get hit with passivity is the guy who backed up more, regardless of whether that guy took a shot. Shots in FS don't count for much, unless you initiate a lot of action off those shots. Folk fans may disagree that that's how it should be, but that's definitely how it is, and it's called consistently.
Click to expand...

This board would be easier to read if you stapled this information to a few posters’ foreheads.

Some people here are dense to this topic by choice, refuse to grasp the rules, yet keep complaining.
 
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One thing to remember about freestyle wrestling…. It’s a sport that at one time in the very recent past, had its competitors pick a ball out of a small pouch and if it was their color, they could start OT on their opponent’s leg.

I mean who in Gods name could come up with such a rule lol
 
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TheMat forum - led by 2 or 3 anti PSU cretins - is rivaling the HR for jealous stupidity right now. Mizzougrad and cjc007 (think he’s a Pitt guy) going back and forth for gold
 
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PSUcup1 said:
One thing to remember about freestyle wrestling…. It’s a sport that at one time in the very recent past, had its competitors pick a ball out of a small pouch and if it was their color, they could start OT on their opponent’s leg.

I mean who in Gods name could come up with such a rule lol
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It's called evolving. Lol.
 
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PSUcup1 said:
I guess it should be stapled on John Smiths forehead as he just posed the same question in the Hildebrand match
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John's been phenomenal and right on the mark. It's about consistency, not the rules. My biggest issue is refs getting too involved. They should never determine a match. Consistency is an issue in every form of wrestling.
 
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Chickenman Testa said:
TheMat forum - led by 2 or 3 anti PSU cretins - is rivaling the HR for jealous stupidity right now. Mizzougrad and cjc007 (think he’s a Pitt guy) going back and forth for gold
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The MizzouGrad guy is one of the worst I've ever seen. Had a full on emotional breakdown when J'Den missed weight and wasn't allowed an exception and immediately declared his allegiance to the Russian team and said this would be our worst performance ever. That aged poorly.
 
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Ian said:
Hmmm seemed like the Russian didn’t do much but counter Snyder’s shots. So confusing to watch Olympic wrestling. Snyder just couldn’t avoid those exposure points.
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In folkstyle, its like wrestling Nolf or Nickal, your shots on them have to be quick, explosive and clean. When you get stopped and stuck, bad things happen. Snyder twice got to the ankle and got flatten out and exposed. He needs to finish the shot cleanly, he did not.
 
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I put on a pick ‘em with two of my buddies. It was a blast because it was pretty easy to pick medalists with just us 3, and we rotated first pick each round. Ended up coming down to last women’s weight and all within 1pt in this screwy Olympics. 3 for gold, 2 for silver, 1 for bronze.

we should probably do a fantasy contest more often around here.
 
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js8793 said:
John has displayed ignorance of the rules all tournament too. He also always references shot count when talking about Passivity. As stupid as I think it.is, it's not how it's called.
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Burroughs (if not wrestling) should replace him going forward.
 
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ClarkstonMark said:
Well, he showed enormous strength in getting those two exposures off Kyle's shots .... I'd say that is something - the only wrestler in the world who could do that to Snyder
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Yea, everybody who wrestles Free knows that "an exposure" during a scramble is offense... that is why both wrestlers are determined to maintain the better position (i.e., drives the action). Just as you say, Sudalev defeated Snyder's "position" with brute strength (i.e., he overwhelmed Snyder's ability to defend against it - again, you're probably right, only person in the world able to do it), so I'm not sure how the OP doesn't see this as a legitimate wrestling scoring move (or that Folk is better because it doesn't recognize such an impressive scoring move). I think it's silly when posters say this kind of thing - it's diametrically illogical imho. Free is the seminal sport from which Folk was carved - if either style "basterdized" the rules, it was folk, not Free! In fact, Folk's bastardization of this very rule is what has allowed match results like the Jimmy Guilbon vs Dean Heil result where where Dean Heil "self-stuck" himself, not once BUT TWICE!, in the same match - quite literally pinned twice under the seminal rules of wrestling, but not only was Guilbon not awarded either Fall - he was not even given any points for either exposure. In fact, Heil was insanely rewarded for these moves, which violate the most fundamental of the seminal wrestling rules, as he was awarded massive amounts of "riding time" during both of these insane (relative to the fundamental seminal rules of wrestling) exchanges in the match! Folk's love and infatuation with "riding time" is another complete bastardization of the seminal rules of wrestling that butchers results of matches relative to the most fundamental and seminal rules of wrestling. Points that decide matches are rewarded for inordinate amounts of wrestling action that is not aimed at scoring points of any kind whatsoever and would have long since been "stalemated" in a wrestling match based on the actual rules of wrestling which long pre-dated Folk-Style. Riding for the sake of riding with no other goal in mind than to accumulate "riding time", is REWARDED in Folk which is not only an insane bastardization of the seminal rules of wrestling, but also routinely butchers and bastardizes the outcomes and results of Folk matches.
 
Petch said:
I don’t think that is correct. I believe that it just matters what the highest scoring move is for both. Since they both had 2’s, that would be a tie there….doesn’t matter if one guy had more 2’s… then the next criteria would be number of cautions…then last points scored….so Gable would have won, even if penalized by standing.

I’m no freestyle expert, but I think that is the way it would be
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tikk10 said:
It does matter who had more twos, that's exactly how criteria works. Highest scoring move; and then the number of that highest scoring move.
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Has this ever been resolved @tikk10? I still think I’m right on this…but not 100% sure.
 
js8793 said:
John has displayed ignorance of the rules all tournament too. He also always references shot count when talking about Passivity. As stupid as I think it.is, it's not how it's called.
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Smith has had a lot of interesting, smart takes and funny moments (e.g., advocating some refs leaving their shoes on the mat) but yeah, this. Also, as the tournament went on he progressively became more coach than color commentator. Even on matches where there was no US interest he'd suddenly be openly rooting for one wrestler ("snap and go, snap and go, snap and go..."). When you share Smith's bias it's less noticeable to viewers, and since he's only going out to US viewers, I imagine NBC (and its viewers) are fine with it. But he's purportedly there as color, not play-by-play, and his coaching shtick too often occupied the space where actual play-by-play should have been occurring. I'd have also preferred to hear from Burroughs more (whose analysis was great throughout) but Smith took up all the oxygen.
 
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Petch said:
Has this ever been resolved @tikk10? I still think I’m right on this…but not 100% sure.
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See above, for the exchange between Jefe and myself. The UWW rules don't explicitly include it as an example, but it is how it's called. In short, 2+2 beats 2+1+1, which is the scenario we were discussing reduced to its essence.
 
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El-Jefe said:
Missougrad couldn't post here during the Olympics. He was in the parking lot during weigh-ins.
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cjc has him in longevity - he’s been a jealous moron for years. Took the title from that annoying Cornell guy who left the forum due to its “negativity” - I.e. he bitched out when he got out-snarked
 
tikk10 said:
I feel like I've made this comment a few dozen times but shooting in FS is not what determines passivity calls, it's about holding the center and engaging more. If there's no real action the guy who'll get hit with passivity is the guy who backed up more, regardless of whether that guy took a shot. Shots in FS don't count for much, unless you initiate a lot of action off those shots. Folk fans may disagree that that's how it should be, but that's definitely how it is, and it's called consistently.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the shot-clock is a mandatory call by the Official in Free if 2 minutes of action has passed in the opening period and no TD or exposure points have been scored - i.e., the Ref has to put one of the 2 wrestlers on the shot clock. When making the determination, he's going to look at the totality of offensive action, not just shots. Free requires wrestlers to stay engaged with each other (or "in contact" is perhaps a better word) once a tie is entered - so it is much more of an offensive position (virtually all throws emanate from this position) than in Folk. You can be dinged a 1-point Penalty for intentionally breaking a tie and creating separation to your opponent - it's a "Fleeing Penalty", Fleeing A Hold [there's also a "Fleeing The Mat" penalty]. You can break and shot like DT did... or break and bearhug.... or break and just stay in contact with your hands/arms..., etc... - IOW, there are both legal and illegal ways to break a tie.

In any event, shots are taken into consideration as offense, but so is both of the wrestlers' actions when in a tie or engaged position. The wrestler going backwards when the wrestlers are in an engaged position is considered the more "passive" wrestler. The Official will make the mandatory shot-clock call based on who spent more time being "passive" during the 2 minute span.

Honestly, if anything, Folk could desperately use a mandatory shot-clock call as countless Folk matches enter the 2nd Period scoreless with no stalling calls, which is ridiculous.
 
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dmm53 said:
Well, 5 medals for the men: 2 gold, 1 silver, 2 bronze. Nice haul.

And for the women: 3 medals (gold, silver, bronze) and an opportunity to add one more in a few minutes.

Wrestlers have earned more medals than any other sport for the US except for swimming and track & field.

Btw: the men's marathon is coming up later today (6 PM) to close out the games for those with interest. (Aside: my own best race.)
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Dmm, I understand your point, Wrestling did amazing, but I'm not a fan of comparing sports as to medal count. Swimming and track have so many more opportunities than Wrestling. 50 meters then 100 meters swimming/track 100 then 200.

Give Wrestlers a medal for the first 3:00 minutes then the second 3:00 then one for combined scores. A Medal for most takedowns.

US Wrestling would clean up if we had a 4 man relay. Dake Nolf Burroughs as part of a relay. David and Bo as half a relay! Wow.

As for track and field my opinion is different when you have a sprinter like Carl Lewis getting a sprint medal then a long jump one.

Finally as a very old former high school distant runner I have the same love of the marathon.

I'm old, I'm pulling for Frank Shorter.

DMM I appreciated your posts this whole tournament. Good stuff.
 
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tikk10 said:
See above, for the exchange between Jefe and myself. The UWW rules don't explicitly include it as an example, but it is how it's called. In short, 2+2 beats 2+1+1, which is the scenario we were discussing reduced to its essence.
Click to expand...

Yes, that has always been my understanding as well - i.e., first criteria is highest scoring move, but if both have same value of highest scoring move, it becomes total points scored via highest scoring move such that 2 beats 1+1.... 2+2 (4) beats a single 2.... 2+2+2 (6) beats 2+2 (4).... etc...

However, they changed the wording on all this stuff when they went to "cumulative scoring" to determine winner (and 2 periods instead of 3.... and 2 pt TD vs 1... etc....), so I honestly don't know anymore. I believe you're correct - the interpretation of new rule is same as old (i.e., first criteria is highest scoring move, followed by cumulative points garnered via highest scoring move if both wrestlers have same point value of highest scoring move).

But again, I honestly can't say I'm positive about this once they changed the wording back in 2018, I believe it was, when they made the major rule change regarding number of periods and cumulative scoring of 2 periods determining winner, not best 2 of 3 periods.
 
js8793 said:
John has displayed ignorance of the rules all tournament too. He also always references shot count when talking about Passivity. As stupid as I think it.is, it's not how it's called.
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I totally hear what you are saying, but I think the argument is if you are taking shots (therefore engaging and stepping forward) how can you be passive. In Taylor’s match he shot, got a restart, then took a step or 2 back got warned. Casey yelled something like he just shot (while opponent hadn’t shot yet). It may be the rules, but it’s sort of ridiculous.
 
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