A joke

[Cowbell Man]

Since the other thread has devolved into a discussion of transfer rules I'd just like to say:

The dual championship is a joke.

This is not a discussion of whether the format is good or bad. It is a comment about idiots and lack of data. It is not remotely possible to evaluate whether a format works, or is popular, or grows the sport if the participants won't even follow the rules. Impossible.

We are taking about a 3 v 5 matchup and others that aren't happening for whatever reason that I really don't give a shit. You have to give this format a chance.

Seriously? Brands?

And Fox.....what? Two weeks to air it?

And completely unrelated.....get the EFFING DOG SHOW OFF MY SPORTS PAGES.

 

[Ja1339]

Lol on the dog show comment

 

[nitlion6]

Since the other thread has devolved into a discussion of transfer rules I'd just like to say:

The dual championship is a joke.

This is not a discussion of whether the format is good or bad. It is a comment about idiots and lack of data. It is not remotely possible to evaluate whether a format works, or is popular, or grows the sport if the participants won't even follow the rules. Impossible.

We are taking about a 3 v 5 matchup and others that aren't happening for whatever reason that I really don't give a shit. You have to give this format a chance.

Seriously? Brands?

And Fox.....what? Two weeks to air it?

And completely unrelated.....get the EFFING DOG SHOW OFF MY SPORTS PAGES.

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Eff Yes!

 

[ClarkstonMark]

My personal opinion. I liken this to the BCS games. The goal there was to match #1 and #2 ,and the other bowls were less important with respect to match-ups regarding rankings. So if you match #1 and #2, I consider it a success.
The Duals have managed to match the #1 and #2 teams. I consider that a success. I honestly don't give a shit who the rest of the teams face.

 

[nitlion6]

Last year that should have been Iowa and Penn State. Brands at the beginning of the season wouldn't agree to come to State College for his recipical visit, so based upon this year's behavior probably no guarantee he would not have traveled last year.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

My personal opinion. I liken this to the BCS games. The goal there was to match #1 and #2 ,and the other bowls were less important with respect to match-ups regarding rankings. So if you match #1 and #2, I consider it a success.
The Duals have managed to match the #1 and #2 teams. I consider that a success. I honestly don't give a shit who the rest of the teams face.

Weren't we #1 last year and Iowa was #2. We didn't wrestle in the regular season and got paired with OK State?

 

[RoarLions1]

I'm excited about Big Ten's and NCAA's. We also have a big dual this weekend.

Don't sweat the small stuff, like the NWCA Duals...which is becoming very emotional for many. Keep your eye on the prize...in four-and-a-half weeks, a National Champ (team) will be crowned.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

I'm excited about Big Ten's and NCAA's. We also have a big dual this weekend.

Don't sweat the small stuff, like the NWCA Duals...which is becoming very emotional for many. Keep your eye on the prize...in four-and-a-half weeks, a National Champ (team) will be crowned.

Couldn't agree more Roar. The mythical national championship is this Sunday. We won't know who wins the real deal until Saturday March 18th.

 

[dunkej01]

I'm excited about Big Ten's and NCAA's. We also have a big dual this weekend.

Don't sweat the small stuff, like the NWCA Duals...which is becoming very emotional for many. Keep your eye on the prize...in four-and-a-half weeks, a National Champ (team) will be crowned.

Roar when your right, your right and you are once again but in the micro-sense in my opinion. The Nat Duals is a macro issue for the sport and will certainly be a main off season topic.

This being a message board and a well known and watched one at that, our emotion that comes out in these threads are a finger in the air and a place to bounce ideas. Sifting through the BS is tough at times, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people that frequent the wrestling boards. I may be giving all "the boards" too much credit, but I dont think so. We see too many references to "the boards" in press conferences, interviews, twitter, etc to not think they matter.

More to my point on this being the beginning and not the end, I think Caels own comments are telling....

“It just doesn’t make sense,” Sanderson said. “We had a good plan as coaches. A couple months later we find out from a select few that they’ve changed the format to a format that would bring problems like this unfortunately, and that’s where we are now."

“You watch; it’s going to turnaround and be used to try and change our March championship, which will not be good for our sport in my opinion."

This may just be our Franz Ferdinand moment. Hopefully Im wrong.

 

[nitlion6]

As a fan if I am not paying attention to what is going on now, as well as looking ahead to the big and nationals I am missing the enjoyment of the journey.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

I too am worried that some significant change may be made to the NCAA tournament. A few coaches have intimated in the past a combination of scoring from the national duals to carry over to the tournament. In my opinion this is a huge mistake. There was obviously no fan interest in the past to a national duals "tournament' evidenced by the lack of fan support. Unsure of the solution, but I know this idea is NOT the answer.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Roar when your right, your right and you are once again but in the micro-sense in my opinion. The Nat Duals is a macro issue for the sport and will certainly be a main off season topic.

This being a message board and a well known and watched one at that, our emotion that comes out in these threads are a finger in the air and a place to bounce ideas. Sifting through the BS is tough at times, but there are a lot of knowledgeable people that frequent the wrestling boards. I may be giving all "the boards" too much credit, but I dont think so. We see too many references to "the boards" in press conferences, interviews, twitter, etc to not think they matter.

More to my point on this being the beginning and not the end, I think Caels own comments are telling....

“It just doesn’t make sense,” Sanderson said. “We had a good plan as coaches. A couple months later we find out from a select few that they’ve changed the format to a format that would bring problems like this unfortunately, and that’s where we are now."

“You watch; it’s going to turnaround and be used to try and change our March championship, which will not be good for our sport in my opinion."

This may just be our Franz Ferdinand moment. Hopefully Im wrong.

This is precisely my point. This is not small stuff, Roar. These results will affect decisions about the national duals and how they can be used to affect the crown jewel.

Someone will say this doesn't work, or didn't garner more interest, and we have to do more. This format actually looked good to me. Even reasonable. A tweak or two to make it better

But really. How would anybody know if the #3 team goes to Edinboro which is logistically harder to get to than Blacksburg.

There can be NO valuable data gathered if the plan isn't followed. The plan is so stinking easy. EASY. and yet........it gets effed up.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Weren't we #1 last year and Iowa was #2. We didn't wrestle in the regular season and got paired with OK State?

Believe so. Also think Iowa lost to NC State in their NWCA National Duals pairing while PSU beat Okie State in their pairing.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

This is precisely my point. This is not small stuff, Roar. These results will affect decisions about the national duals and how they can be used to affect the crown jewel.

Someone will say this doesn't work, or didn't garner more interest, and we have to do more. This format actually looked good to me. Even reasonable. A tweak or two to make it better

But really. How would anybody know if the #3 team goes to Edinboro which is logistically harder to get to than Blacksburg.

There can be NO valuable data gathered if the plan isn't followed. The plan is so stinking easy. EASY. and yet........it gets effed up.

I guess you can argue about whether or not it worked....
If you say the goal is the #1 B10 vs the best non-B10, and only that, then it works. That is the way I look at it

 

[1stplacehawk]

I too am worried that some significant change may be made to the NCAA tournament. A few coaches have intimated in the past a combination of scoring from the national duals to carry over to the tournament. In my opinion this is a huge mistake. There was obviously no fan interest in the past to a national duals "tournament' evidenced by the lack of fan support. Unsure of the solution, but I know this idea is NOT the answer.

The lack of interest was likely because it ultimately didn't matter. If they had a dual tournament that counted towards scoring in March, I am sure there would be a lot more fan interest. FWIW, I'm fine with the current stand alone NCAA tournament.

 

[Dogwelder]

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Eff Yes!

 

[dunkej01]

The lack of interest was likely because it ultimately didn't matter. If they had a dual tournament that counted towards scoring in March, I am sure there would be a lot more fan interest. FWIW, I'm fine with the current stand alone NCAA tournament.

This i dont understand. Does winning midlands matter? Does winning the Scuffle matter? Sure it does, as media types, fans, coaches, etc all push them.

So why wouldnt a dual championship matter?

That it doesnt matter is a false fact. It matters to the goofers, check out the walls in their wrestling room. It matters if you look at championship trophy cases at each school. It matters to ADs and sports marketing types. But its been marginalized as a means to an end.

What is the end? To change the NC in my opinion.

 

[1stplacehawk]

This i dont understand. Does winning midlands matter? Does winning the Scuffle matter? Sure it does, as media types, fans, coaches, etc all push them.

So why wouldnt a dual championship matter?

That it doesnt matter is a false fact. It matters to the goofers, check out the walls in their wrestling room. It matters if you look at championship trophy cases at each school. It matters to ADs and sports marketing types. But its been marginalized as a means to an end.

What is the end? To change the NC in my opinion.

So you think the current format is the solution? Outside of potentially providing some revenue for the host schools, it doesn't serve much of a purpose, IMO. It's just another dual meet at the end of the season at this point

 

[NoVa Lion]

So you think the current format is the solution? Outside of potentially providing some revenue for the host schools, it doesn't serve much of a purpose, IMO. It's just another dual meet at the end of the season at this point

What EXACTLY are you trying to find a solution to? Ideally I would like to see a split season with an actual NCAA Dual Team Championship to go along with the NCAAs as we now have them, but that IMHO, is never going to happen. Personally I didn't see any problem with National Duals when it was held back in early January. It was not a huge draw unless it was in Iowa but still a nice mid season tournament. The problem occurred when they moved it to the end of the regular season. Cael, and other coaches including Brands did not want a tournament where your wrestlers had 4 duals over 2 days at the end of the season when you are trying to get your team healthy and in peak form for the post season.

 

[Cowbell Man]

And to anyone who thinks this isn't big picture.....

Note that Tom Brands chooses not to wrestle Va Tech and he is rewarded to a recruiting visit to PA.

 

[Lyco1990]

The lack of interest was likely because it ultimately didn't matter. If they had a dual tournament that counted towards scoring in March, I am sure there would be a lot more fan interest. FWIW, I'm fine with the current stand alone NCAA tournament.

This whole tournament counting towards scoring is absolutely ridiculous. So you basically tell schools like Edinboro, UNI, South Dakota State that they are out of luck at Nationals. Some teams cant put together a great dual meet team but can place high on the podium at nationals. This is only my opinion so now I have to go back and look at past results. More to come later.

 

[1stplacehawk]

This whole tournament counting towards scoring is absolutely ridiculous. So you basically tell schools like Edinboro, UNI, South Dakota State that they are out of luck at Nationals. Some teams cant put together a great dual meet team but can place high on the podium at nationals. This is only my opinion so now I have to go back and look at past results. More to come later.

They are already out of luck at nationals

 

[1stplacehawk]

What EXACTLY are you trying to find a solution to? Ideally I would like to see a split season with an actual NCAA Dual Team Championship to go along with the NCAAs as we now have them, but that IMHO, is never going to happen. Personally I didn't see any problem with National Duals when it was held back in early January. It was not a huge draw unless it was in Iowa but still a nice mid season tournament. The problem occurred when they moved it to the end of the regular season. Cael, and other coaches including Brands did not want a tournament where your wrestlers had 4 duals over 2 days at the end of the season when you are trying to get your team healthy and in peak form for the post season.

I'm not trying to find a solution to anything. The current format is pointless. Make it matter or scrap it.

 

[NoVa Lion]

This whole tournament counting towards scoring is absolutely ridiculous. So you basically tell schools like Edinboro, UNI, South Dakota State that they are out of luck at Nationals. Some teams cant put together a great dual meet team but can place high on the podium at nationals. This is only my opinion so now I have to go back and look at past results. More to come later.

They are already out of luck at nationals

Edinboro finished 3rd at NCAA last year but if team points had been awarded based on their finish in a dual tournament they almost certainly would have dropped back to 6th or 7th.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Edinboro finished 3rd at NCAA last year but if team points had been awarded based on their finish in a dual tournament they almost certainly would have dropped back to 6th or 7th.

I'm not in favor of changing the current national tournament. Simply in favor of scrapping the national "duals". Edinboro and American are the only teams in recent memory that fit those circumstances.

 

[RoarLions1]

This is precisely my point. This is not small stuff, Roar. These results will affect decisions about the national duals and how they can be used to affect the crown jewel.

Someone will say this doesn't work, or didn't garner more interest, and we have to do more. This format actually looked good to me. Even reasonable. A tweak or two to make it better

But really. How would anybody know if the #3 team goes to Edinboro which is logistically harder to get to than Blacksburg.

There can be NO valuable data gathered if the plan isn't followed. The plan is so stinking easy. EASY. and yet........it gets effed up.

We'll have to disagree, and maybe we're not so far off. Other than it being a perfect topic for message boards, it's really no big deal (it's small stuff) in the short-term, imo. Cael has to do his thing right now, which is awesome, but if anyone thinks it will distract from his (and all the coaches) preparation for this weekend's dual, or the Big Ten Championships, or the NCAA's, they're horribly mistaken. That's my mindset too.

We're not far off because there are longer-term decisions (your word) and consequences that do matter, to your point. And they will happen in time, and Cael will have his say along with others, and "yes" this current system was easy, and "yes" it somehow was messed up. See, we agree on almost everything!!

This thread and all others discussing the topic are great, we all get to hear perspectives galore, and I, for one, sit back and say "yeah, hadn't thought of that!!". It's what we do. If I had a quibble at all, it would be that it's become somewhat of a feeding frenzy, and a platform for some to take shots at one particular coach. To me it seems to be bigger than that.

So that's my position. Short-term, no biggie...I'm focusing on wrestling's crown jewel. Longer-term, have at it coaches...do better next time, and don't mess with all the good stuff NCAA wrestling has going for it. In the meantime, we have a dual on Sunday!!

 

[Lyco1990]

Edinboro finished 3rd at NCAA last year but if team points had been awarded based on their finish in a dual tournament they almost certainly would have dropped back to 6th or 7th.

Exactly I went back to 1989 and compared NCAA's to the dual results and if points would be awarded the following schools may have been negatively impacted (Did not include the regular top 10) and potentially moved out of top 5 at NCAA. Northwestern 1990, 2007, Oregon State 1994/1995, Michigan 1994, Michigan St 1995, Cal St Bakersfield 1996, Lock Haven 1997, Central Michigan 1998, Illinois 2001, Lehigh 2003, 2004, Michigan 2005, Cornell 2005, 2006 would have helped 2011, Wisconsin 2010, American 2011 and Edinboro 2014. I did it quickly but I believe any reasonable person looking at these schools that NCAA tourney results and their increase presence at NCAA today had a positive impact on the sport. In 25 years exactly six schools won the dual tournament Oklahoma State, Penn State, Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Cornell. Exactly how is rewarding these perennial top ten teams with a head start growing the sport. Ok, rant over.

 

[dunkej01]

So you think the current format is the solution? Outside of potentially providing some revenue for the host schools, it doesn't serve much of a purpose, IMO. It's just another dual meet at the end of the season at this point

I watched the US/Israel press conference at lunch and there is renewed talk of peace in the middle east. So with a hop in my step and a smile on face, lets attack this differently. Lets do the work of the coaches for them....message board style.

lets do a hypothetical negotiation. Its sure to be boring around these parts between Sunday and the B1$ championships.....Im sure we can negotiate a hypothetical deal that grows the sport and who knows maybe we can take credit for something down the road. Lord knows kids in 3rd world countries appreciate my work from a few years ago

 

[CowboyUp61]

Edinboro finished 3rd at NCAA last year but if team points had been awarded based on their finish in a dual tournament they almost certainly would have dropped back to 6th or 7th.

Last year or 2015? I think last year they were about 30th, but the year before they were in the top 3 or 4

 

[NoVa Lion]

Last year or 2015? I think last year they were about 30th, but the year before they were in the top 3 or 4

Yeah, my bad. 2015 with Port, Habat, Schoop, etc.

 

[Brian LB-U]

Lol on the dog show comment

But they're "great athletes"! Signed, The annoying sports reporters who on insist on including Secretariat on every "greatest ever" list.

 

[El-Jefe]

I watched the US/Israel press conference at lunch and there is renewed talk of peace in the middle east. So with a hop in my step and a smile on face, lets attack this differently. Lets do the work of the coaches for them....message board style.

lets do a hypothetical negotiation. Its sure to be boring around these parts between Sunday and the B1$ championships.....Im sure we can negotiate a hypothetical deal that grows the sport and who knows maybe we can take credit for something down the road. Lord knows kids in 3rd world countries appreciate my work from a few years ago

When did Foley hack into Dunk's account?

 

[nitlion6]

When did Foley hack into Dunk's account?

It was someone else. If it had been Foley we would have read how the solution to the current problem is to have USA wrestling change from folkstyle to the Foley greco/freestyle combo style.

 

[El-Jefe]

It was someone else. If it had been Foley we would have read how the solution to the current problem is to have USA wrestling change from folkstyle to the Foley greco/freestyle combo style.

Well, this "Dunk" didn't say anything about the Rio refs either -- even though Real Dunk hasn't been shy about that.

Coincidence?

 

[Abro1975]

Edinboro finished 3rd at NCAA last year but if team points had been awarded based on their finish in a dual tournament they almost certainly would have dropped back to 6th or 7th.

Not sure what you are referring to, but in the team scores in the 2016 NCAA D1 TOURNY Edinboro finished tied for 32

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

The Duals have managed to match the #1 and #2 teams. I consider that a success. I honestly don't give a shit who the rest of the teams face.

Agree. The National Duals managed to arrange the marquee match-up between undefeated #1 and undefeated #2, along with a few other interesting duals that otherwise would not have occurred. If Iowa and the Brands brothers rather wrestle Edinboro than VaTech, well, so be it - I'm not going to sweat it or get all worked up about it.

To me, the more egregious problem is that the marquee dual won't be televised (other than a ridiculous tape delay), and can only be streamed live if one is willing to cough up $30 to Flo (no thanks). For all the talk about "growing the sport", this is one dual that should be televised for free.

And I still can't believe that the Fox Sports tape delay is 2 weeks! Is that really true?

 

[Lyco1990]

They are already out of luck at nationals

That is asinine. We want to grow the sport but let's give the power teams an advantage make no sense.

 

[Cowbell Man]

We'll have to disagree, and maybe we're not so far off. Other than it being a perfect topic for message boards, it's really no big deal (it's small stuff) in the short-term, imo. Cael has to do his thing right now, which is awesome, but if anyone thinks it will distract from his (and all the coaches) preparation for this weekend's dual, or the Big Ten Championships, or the NCAA's, they're horribly mistaken. That's my mindset too.

We're not far off because there are longer-term decisions (your word) and consequences that do matter, to your point. And they will happen in time, and Cael will have his say along with others, and "yes" this current system was easy, and "yes" it somehow was messed up. See, we agree on almost everything!!

This thread and all others discussing the topic are great, we all get to hear perspectives galore, and I, for one, sit back and say "yeah, hadn't thought of that!!". It's what we do. If I had a quibble at all, it would be that it's become somewhat of a feeding frenzy, and a platform for some to take shots at one particular coach. To me it seems to be bigger than that.

So that's my position. Short-term, no biggie...I'm focusing on wrestling's crown jewel. Longer-term, have at it coaches...do better next time, and don't mess with all the good stuff NCAA wrestling has going for it. In the meantime, we have a dual on Sunday!!

I like Brands, Roar. But it is wholly BS to avoid a matchup in this "event" because you don't like the particular team.

And then turn it into a recruiting trip to PA. Funny how he decided to go there.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Not sure what you are referring to, but in the team scores in the 2016 NCAA D1 TOURNY Edinboro finished tied for 32

always pays to read the entire thread. you're about 6 hours late on your observation, as it was already noted and then clarified by NoVa.

 

[minnhawkeye]

To me, the more egregious problem is that the marquee dual won't be televised (other than a ridiculous tape delay), and can only be streamed live if one is willing to cough up $30 to Flo (no thanks). For all the talk about "growing the sport", this is one dual that should be televised for free.

Now that is a good one...Good way to grow the sport put it in on tv for free dam this county giving to much away for free the way it is...,For heavens sake you if love the sport pay the $30 to flo then cancel..What if they maybe make it 25 to go in person and you have travel,lodging , food, etc now invested for going to something that don't mean shit is it worth it?...
Tell me also how it can even be called a national champion ship? When you only going one match and it has to be number one from big ten and number one from another conference don't make any sense to me. Big ten is toughest conference and could have it one year two teams tie for 1st because they don't wrestle each other...Also most of the other conference are not as strong..Ok, done with the rant enjoy your 32-8 romp over Okl.State and enjoy on fox 2 weeks later..