AS THE BIRD TURNS (IOWA STUFF)
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The Iowa wrestling program was built on calculating the total cost of a fully funded program using only higher out of state tuition cost scholarships and then giving that money largely to in-state lower tuition cost scholarship wrestlers, back when Iowa was one of the two best wrestling states in the country. (Honestly, they were probably the best back then.)It's interesting...a few weeks ago, in their annual post-NCAA hand wringing session, a commenter (who I believe is a current or former HWC member/leader/knower-of-things) said the following...
"Gable had the richest club in the nation for his career-- Roy Carver donated a couple million dollars early on to fund the club.. in todays $$ that would be like 10mm or more."
What is the answer?
I have a few thoughts but one that keeps coming up is $ and the constant nudges in every thread that alludes to, you want improvement—donate, but who is the steward of those dollars? I donated to HWC and realized some decisions were a bit frustrating. For years the club was non existent...iowa.forums.rivals.com
You'll all be shocked that this generated basically no reaction or acknowledgement from their contingent that insists Cael is only successful because of a $$$ advantage (which seems to be smaller than Gable's $$$ advantage).
They’ll claim it was in accordance with Big Ten rules at the time. But no one was doing it to that degree in wrestling or benefiting as much from it in wrestling.
And no one outside the Big Ten was doing it.
They literally faced NCAA sanctions over it once it was discovered.
It was (and remains) a program built on illegal slush fund scholarships.
And then their fans try to claim an unlevel monetary playing field today.
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Be sure to hit up the Toppling Goliath brewery when you visit.
Not doubting you, but I thought they were not sanctioned because the Big Ten had messed up. They absolutely benefited from extra scholarships so they should have been sanctioned.
He's erased most of them. I know a guy who has collected about 9 or 10 but that's all. Do you have any screen shots?
@PatMineo22 JTS has a great idea that will get lots of attention. If you need help just ask.
They were sanctioned and so were other big ten schools in sports where they did it.
Decorah is an amazing little town, make sure to hit up Toppling Goliath AND Pulpit Rock Brewery if you ever visit. They both have some of the best IPAs, Stouts and Sours around. There’s also great trout fishing and an awesome bike trail.
I read the article someone linked somewhere.
I think it's disingenuous to assert Iowa was built on extra scholarships, but I guess it's as good joke/troll as any.
From the article I read, it didn't seem Iowa was the worst B10 wrestling team offender. Also, as best as I could understand it, it seemed it only amounted to 0.5 scholarships per year over a 10-year period for Iowa's wrestling team.
Gable coached Iowa from 1977 thru 1990 championships before the B10 put an end to the scholarship interpretation in 1990. The article said 5 extra scholarships over a 10 year period, if I understand it correctly. That's 10 years out of 14 seasons with an average 0.5 of an extra scholarships. Gable-led Iowa teams won 9 of 14 championships (losing the 1st and the last 4).
Additionally, the NCAA didn't cut the number of wrestling scholarships to 9.9 from 11 until 1993. So the extra scholarship averaged only an additional 4.5%.
Then after 1990, without any extra scholarships, Gable-led Iowa teams won 7 of 8 championships.
It seemed several compliance offices signed off on the interpretation for multiple non-revenue sports, so I seriously doubt Gable or wrestling masterminded it or led the charge. And I have to reasonably believe that no NCAA championships were vacated given a conclusion of minimal contribution attributable to the additional fractional scholarship per year on average. Iowa may've even lost 4 out of the 10 years it had extra scholarships.
Am I misunderstanding the actual specifics of the extra scholarships (amount and timeframe)?
I prefer to give Coach Dan Gable the full respect he and his Iowa teams deserve.
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Beautiful settlement! I have family that live up that way.
Home of the Ho-Chunks!
Named after Waukon Decorah, a US ally during the BlackHawk war of 1832. A man who sought revenge for his daughters death..
I agree with most of what you're saying. Nicholls, financially, I'm sure will be great for Iowa wrestling. As for what has already been mentioned about his ped fetish, that's not a good look for Iowa wrestling.
Hate is probably too strong a word for most people. When I say I "hate" the Ravens, I don't really hate them. It's just a rivalry thing.
Gable definitely deserves his legend status. I have nothing but respect for the dude.
Yep right there in Ladona. The West End is a fairly new place. Believe it or not I lived in that exact same spot. Back in the 70's that spot was Kelly's Tavern and we lived right behind it. When the Tavern burned down a Realty company built that building, It has been a few businesses over the years. One of the best native trout streams no one really know about runs right behind the West End called Mill Creek. It doesn't run long and is very tight, it dumps in into the Allegany right in town. Caught tons on McMurry ants in the summers. Try the Crittenden sometime.
I have responded to Bob about the ped thing from my own perspective. People can change, but he says he doesn't shy away from wrestling board street fights.
Imagine leaving a youth spent in the Pittsburgh suburbs for good in 1985, for a career and remaining lifetime in the Washington/Baltimore suburbs. One learns to root for the Redskins, Ravens and Steelers. Baltimore didn't have a team when I arrived. I have more fan locale Super Bowls (8) than the Patriots (6) (Pittsburgh 75, 76, 79, 80, Washington 88, 92, Baltimore 01, 13).
When it comes to Ravens vs Steelers, I now go with the Ravens and leave the Steelers for my western PA siblings. If I'm at a game, I wear the home team jersey (I'm a lover not a fighter). Late in the season I root for whichever has the best chance for the playoffs.
Best to keep rooting-against interests focused on the Cowboys, Browns, and Raiders. Some traditions die harder than others.
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For wrestling, Iowa was far and away the biggest offender. During the 4-year period the
Conference reviewed the extra scholarships (87-90), Iowa granted 7.39 extra wrestling scholarships. They were at the top of the sport back then, like PSU is today. Imagine PSU being able to offer 1.85 extra scholarships to blue chippers every year and tell me this wouldn’t add to our advantage.
The conference also admitted its members were breaking the rules all the way back to 1979. Does anyone believe Gable just started getting “creative” with the scholarship calculations 1987? Of course not. In any case, here are the wrestling numbers for the sample period the conference reviewed:
Iowa: 7.39
Michigan: .60
Indiana: 1.74
Minnesota: 1.73
Wisconsin: .865
Report Here
Major Infractions Case
Institution: Big Ten ConferenceDate: July 26, 1993
Violation Summary: IMPROPER FINANCIAL AID: financial aid calculated incorrectly in equivalency sports at 7 institutions (University of Illinois, Champaign; Indiana University; University of Iowa; University of Michigan; University of Minnesota, Twin Cities; Purdue University; and University of Wisconsin, Madison).
Penalty Summary: Public reprimand; rescinded regulation that resulted in overawarding scholarships; 7 institutions reduced grants over a four-year period by total amount that was overawarded; reduction by $75,000 in the NCAA grant sent to the conference for 1993-94.
Involved Sports:
Baseball , Men's Cross Country , Men's Golf , Men's Gymnastics , Men's Soccer , Men's Swimming and Diving , Men's Tennis , Men's Track, Indoor , Men's Track, Outdoor , Men's Wrestling , Softball , Women's Golf , Women's Soccer , Women's Swimming and Diving
Case Level:
Involved Penalties:
Television: 0 yrs
Reduction in Financial Aid: No
Postseason: 0 yrs
Recruiting: No
Probation: 0 yrs
Show Cause Penalty: No
Vacation of Record: No
I think your math is wrong. They examined four years and found Iowa wrestling to be 5 full scholarships over the limit in those four years alone.
A few Big Ten schools didn’t do it all in any sport. Ohio State didn’t do it, for example.
Iowa wrestling was singled out because of how significantly over the limit they were for their sport.
If you think five more fully scholarshipped wrestlers per four years than anyone else over a 12ish year period is not a huge advantage, then all I can do is vehemently disagree .
Ok, and
- Then Iowa had to reduce scholarships by that amount in out years per the report.
- Iowa did not win the NCAA wrestling championship in any of those years.
- Iowa won 7 of 8 championships after those years when they had to reduce scholarships.
The official report is even worse than the stories reported. Iowa wrestling was by far the single largest offender.
I also read an article. The way it worked was that Gable would value each scholarship based on out-of-state costs and then award "money" to his scholarship athlete's. So, an in-state recruit (which back then Iowa had a lot of in-state kids on the roster) could be given money which covered a full ride while only using about 60% of scholarship. So, essentially, Gable could have up to 16.5 Iowa kids receiving a full ride. I'm too lazy to figure out where his starters came from but rest assured he got way more than .5 additional ships per year out of this strategy.
So in the reviewed period Iowa gave 50% more scholarships than all the other teams combined. Yeah, nothing to see here.
They bent the rules, far more than anyone else, and without question benefitted from doing so.
#OriginalSlushFund
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No doubt that they did wonders after it. But the program was built on way more scholarships than anyone else for a decade plus.
I was having trouble being confident I correctly interpreted the article. Sometimes a table is better than words
But did they win or lose in those years? They lost to non-B10 teams 87-90, so whatever advantage it was it didn’t help then. And then they won after having to reduce scholarships, so the disadvantage didn’t hurt then.
Do you at least agree they also lost with extra scholarships and won with fewer? It doesn't have to be vehement agreement.
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Your information is correct. Iowa wrestling was the most egregious offender; and yet, some Big Ten teams were not guilty of this violation.
As I have never posted a link before, I hope this works:
Well, perhaps if you copy and paste ....
IMHO, this advantage was HUGE. For example, instead of offering 5 good wrestlers each 0.25 scholarships, Iowa might be able to offer 5 hammers 0.60 scholarships (taking 7.39 for the 4 years; average of 1.85 per year; then dividing that by 5). That is half the starters! In the NCAA tournament, what's the point differential between that of a good wrestler and a hammer? Now, multiply that by 5 to get an idea of how much of an advantage Iowa may gain over the competition. The increased scholarship, along with the opportunity to be coached by an Olympic gold medal winner, swayed many wrestlers to choose Iowa. By the time the violation was addressed, Iowa had become the dominant power in college wrestling -- which became a compelling reason for wrestlers to choose Iowa. So it could be argued that Iowa's misinterpretation of the rules paid huge dividends -- not only when it was happening -- but, continued to pay dividends years afterward.
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I have heard of Mill Creek, but haven't fished it. It's hard to leave our local area since there are so many fish there.
I have heard the Crittenden is really good. I read they just had a big fire and will be closed for a while.
Lol.
The practice dated back to the 70s. They only examined 87-90 when they investigated it.
Someone said 11 scholarships were allowed at the time. Assuming most scholarships go to 4-yr wrestlers, Iowa was 67% over the limit. Incredible advantage.
They won the Big Ten 87-90 were national runners-up in 87 and 88 and a close 3rd in 90.
For Iowa to be achieving extra scholarships they had to be giving more to in state kids, right? I mean, they couldn't be recruiting out of state or that wouldn't yield margin against out of state tuition, right?
So how is it again that their extra scholarships led to pulling in nationwide top talent where they could plug in a ready to AA replacement?
I guess maybe Iowa in state wrestling must've been the creme de la creme from 1979-1990 then. Is that what PA wrestling actually believe? I don't think so.
So how is it again that their extra scholarships led to pulling in nationwide top talent where they could plug in a ready to AA replacement?
I guess maybe Iowa in state wrestling must've been the creme de la creme from 1979-1990 then. Is that what PA wrestling actually believe? I don't think so.
The "Woodsman's Carnivale" is great. ESPN use to cover it.
Just imagine how many more titles Gable would've won if he had Willie recruiting for him.
The report says they were following a B10 rule as written. But that the NCAA said the B10 rule was not compliant with the NCAA's. Or did I misunderstand the report?
That’s how I read it. Also that the NCAA even told the Big Ten it was wrong but the commissioner did nothing. Then when the commissioner changed people, the new person said uh-oh.
But again, it was beyond just the conference having a rule. Three members not named PSU didn’t do it in any sport (PSU had just become a member when discovered and also cleared). The rest dabbled in it a little except Iowa wrestling went all in, and benefited especially from the incredibly strong high school wrestling in Iowa state at the time.
For the record, I think Gable did what he believed was the morally right thing by giving out an average of 12.85* scholarships over 4* years to his wrestlers of a room that likely contained 35 or so. If I checked with compliance and they said it's ok, other schools do it, we do it in other sports, I personally would sleep like a baby.
*Edited after reading report it looks more like 1.85 extra scholarships per year over 4 years than 7.39 per year over four years, as some seem to have claimed. That's 16.8% more given the scholarship limit was 11 back then.
*Edited after reading report it looks more like 1.85 extra scholarships per year over 4 years than 7.39 per year over four years, as some seem to have claimed. That's 16.8% more given the scholarship limit was 11 back then.
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Yeah, but why? Maybe they didn't even give out the full 11 scholarships in wrestling. Maybe funding non-revenue athletics wasn't a priority. Maybe they focused on recruiting the best talent even if it meant going out of state.
Sure, PSU didn't do it, because they weren't a B10 member until 1990.
I have to think a school like Ohio State, who didn’t do it at all, likely had an AD or compliance officer that said the Big Ten rule was wrong.
I’m not going to throw Gable under the bus for it, but there’s no way they didn’t benefit from a room with 18.39 vs 11 virtually everywhere else.
Hell, imagine all the titles if Gable would have had Willie wrestling for him. Spencer who?
Hey that was fun for awhile. Occupied my mind for about 45 mins.
The Big Ten Conference Infractions Report:
It used to be 11 scholarships, and it was a Title IX reduction of 10%, so thus 9.9. Except for Iowa. DG decided that he could manipulate BIG10 rules from 1979-1991 about the way grant-in aide was counted (MSU, Northwestern, and even $OSU followed the rules for all sports, and Illinois and Purdue did not extend extra for wrestling), contrary to NCAA rules. Over the 4 year audit, Iowa got an additional 7.39 scholarships (Indiana was second at 1.74 over 4 years). That is a HUGE advantage, and the time Iowa started dominating?
BIG10 rules did not line up with NCAA rules. 7 of the 10 schools knowingly violated the NCAA rules, but 3 schools followed NCAA rules. Iowa, really pushed it in wrestling (many out-of-state recruits). The audit was for only 4 years, but the report goes from 79-91. PSU was not a BIG10 member at that time
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