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Askren's Trials Controversies

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js8793

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I thought Askren had some good thoughts on the two major controversies from this weekend.

1) MM-Burroughs - Askren essentially says that's who MM is, he loves to fight, he straddles the line, the head shove was well deserved, and that he's had to choke MM in practice many times to get him back in line. Overall, pretty funny discussion from one of the last people that could be accused of anti-MM bias.

Also interesting discussion about when MM started training with him and how one of the big issues he had was keeping his composure. Ben used to purposely try to get him mad so he could learn to control himself. Reminded me a lot of the process with
Desanto in the Iowa room.

2) The PSU fans - I agree with him on this too. When a crowd gets large, it doesn't behave rationally. It gets swept up in the emotions of the event and sometimes does things that nobody would ever think they'd do outside of that context. I don't think it's an accident that the two notoriously poorly behaved fan bases are Iowa and PSU, the two largest by far. Get everybody together and people get wild and those in the crowd who actually suck become more emboldened to misbehave.
 
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js8793 said:
I thought Askren had some good thoughts on the two major controversies from this weekend.

1) MM-Burroughs - Askren essentially says that's who MM is, he loves to fight, he straddles the line, the head shove was well deserved, and that he's had to choke MM in practice many times to get him back in line. Overall, pretty funny discussion from one of the last people that could be accused of anti-MM bias.

Also interesting discussion about when MM started training with him and how one of the big issues he had was keeping his composure. Ben used to purposely try to get him mad so he could learn to control himself. Reminded me a lot of the process with
Desanto in the Iowa room.

2) The PSU fans - I agree with him on this too. When a crowd gets large, it doesn't behave rationally. It gets swept up in the emotions of the event and sometimes does things that nobody would ever think they'd do outside of that context. I don't think it's an accident that the two notoriously poorly behaved fan bases are Iowa and PSU, the two largest by far. Get everybody together and people get wild and those in the crowd who actually suck become more emboldened to misbehave.
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Seems legit, if I was a high level wrestler MM would piss me off. I've heard MMA trainees talk about new guys that go too hard too often and how there is often a gym enforcer to handle them. I've played that roll a little in lifting and certain work functions. You send a message, a learning experience and they'll often fall in line.
 
The difference that I personally have seen from when Cael started his run till now..
At the beginning of the run the fans in general were more positive, most of the noise was cheering for their guy.
Now its still very positive but there is a percentage that is negative. If I had to put a number on it I'd say 2-3% of the energy is negative.. But % increase from what it originally was is 30% up???
But as we know an empty can is the loudest..
I hope Rec doesn't start selling beer.. I personally really like beer but there are a bunch who shouldn't drink it and watch sporting events.
 
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js8793 said:
I thought Askren had some good thoughts on the two major controversies from this weekend.

1) MM-Burroughs - Askren essentially says that's who MM is, he loves to fight, he straddles the line, the head shove was well deserved, and that he's had to choke MM in practice many times to get him back in line. Overall, pretty funny discussion from one of the last people that could be accused of anti-MM bias.

Also interesting discussion about when MM started training with him and how one of the big issues he had was keeping his composure. Ben used to purposely try to get him mad so he could learn to control himself. Reminded me a lot of the process with
Desanto in the Iowa room.

2) The PSU fans - I agree with him on this too. When a crowd gets large, it doesn't behave rationally. It gets swept up in the emotions of the event and sometimes does things that nobody would ever think they'd do outside of that context. I don't think it's an accident that the two notoriously poorly behaved fan bases are Iowa and PSU, the two largest by far. Get everybody together and people get wild and those in the crowd who actually suck become more emboldened to misbehave.
Click to expand...
Where did you see this interview??
You know better, now you have to post pics of your wife.. GIA RULES... TIA
 
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mcpat said:
When did the sport of wrestling get so soft about fans booing?
Click to expand...
We've always been this senstive.

Wrestling is just a far more personal sport. it's not the big four - we all have access to these athletes. And especially at the senior level - dudes are wearing USA across the chest. So I get where the sensitivity comes from.

Especially after the Nolf match - I mean. One our sport's greatest and greatest ambassador likely has competed for the last time. And the crowd was pretty brutal.

Personally, eh. whatever. But i do get it. And i get why the wrestlers in particular take it so offensively.
 
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A 35 year old professional athlete was booed while competing in the home arena of his opponent. Schools and businesses should close every year on its anniversary in observance of this tragic event.
 
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mcpat said:
A 35 year old professional athlete was booed while competing in the home arena of his opponent. Schools and businesses should close every year on April 20th in observance of this tragic event.
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It's so wild that this is the first time in history that an athlete got booed. To verify, I investigated on YouTube and there is no evidence of it happening before. I was only met with respectful clapping and nods of appreciation.
 
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Some random thoughts:
  • I liked Askren's takes. Mitchell will get on your nerves. We called him psycho all season for a reason. It's understandable why JB wasn't pleased--his retaliation crossed a line, and ref gave Mitch a point for it.
  • What PSU wrestler hasn't gone OOB, sprinted back to center, and made the other guy take the long path back to center? It's clearly coached in our room--my guess as a way to get the opponent out of their mindset.
  • The PSU faithful knows exactly how MM would need to beat JB, and it was to gas him. The sock-pulls will not get a pass from a partisan crowd in that context, doesn't matter if it was the Mahatama himself Mitch was wrestling.
  • Large drinking crowds misbehave when they know they have numbers. Groupthink is real. Shocking, I know.
  • Those of us who found booing one of the GOATs distasteful can speak up, or not. Free country and whatnot. I think if I saw fans going after a kid's mother like Willie says he's seen at Rec, I probably would tell them to knock if off. Seems irrelevant to this discussion though.
  • JB was perfectly within his right to have words w/ that fan. Manning probably felt he was going to bat for his guy--but I don't think it did him any favors in hindsight. It's a heartbreaking tournament for everyone but 6 guys, so passions can get the best of you.
  • It's also perfectly understandable that wrestling media/fans saw all of this as a bad look. The event is "supposed" to showcase and celebrate the best of USA. In that context, it very well might make sense to not put the event in front of one of the largest, most amped fanbases in the nation then. Lesson learned? We'll see.
I still am super grateful to have experienced this thing--I'll never forget my weekend.
 
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mcpat said:
A 35 year old professional athlete was booed while competing in the home arena of his opponent. Schools and businesses should close every year on its anniversary in observance of this tragic event.
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The funniest part is the guy who made the "your career in now over" comment simply played on the public tit for tat between Carter and JB. The JB circle then has the freaking audacity to act butthurt. Good Lord, grow up.

It would have been great if PSU fans were so perfect they would have ignored their human instincts and cheered for him. However, people are people and apparently it can't be said enough, JB received the response he invited.
 
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Nitlion1986 said:
The funniest part is the guy who made the "your career in now over" comment simply played on the public tit for tat between Carter and JB. The JB circle then has the freaking audacity to act butthurt. Good Lord, grow up.

It would have been great if PSU fans were so perfect they would have ignored their human instincts and cheered for him. However, people are people and apparently it can't be said enough, JB received the response he invited.
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Being from Philly, this all makes perfect sense, and his whining about it is just going to make it worse. LOL.
 
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nerfstate said:
Some random thoughts:
  • I liked Askren's takes. Mitchell will get on your nerves. We called him psycho all season for a reason. It's understandable why JB wasn't pleased--his retaliation crossed a line, and ref gave Mitch a point for it.
  • What PSU wrestler hasn't gone OOB, sprinted back to center, and made the other guy take the long path back to center? It's clearly coached in our room--my guess as a way to get the opponent out of their mindset.
  • The PSU faithful knows exactly how MM would need to beat JB, and it was to gas him. The sock-pulls will not get a pass from a partisan crowd in that context, doesn't matter if it was the Mahatama himself Mitch was wrestling.
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The ref isn't getting nearly enough blame on all of this.

Obviously he let Burroughs get away with far too much on the sock pulls.

Also, if MItchell's behavior was too much, then he should have stopped it earlier before it got to the point of Burroughs retaliating.

Somehow all of the wrestling industry's Clear Thinkers have given the ref a pass on all of this.
 
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Askren on Flo is the source, listening to it now.. It is pretty funny..
 
Always liked JB as a wrestler and as person. Done many fantastic things for the sport and for our country. However, if you play the heel, you reap what you sow. You can't be shocked when you don't get the response you want.
 
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Hotshoe said:
Do folks realize, this silly event is being talked about far more than the wrestling? Congratulations Twitter/X, online drama drivers.
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The kicker in all of this for me is that what got the crowd the hottest didn’t even get shown on TV (JB putting his hands on MM after the match). Twitter fingers making a big deal out of something without having seen the full story play out. Social media, and people, are generally stupid MFs.

The match was fine. Pyles, god bless him, said it best that MM doesn’t cross the line, but he seeks it. JB played the game, too, with his socks. Eventually JB got tired of MMs game and gave him a shove. No big deal. Great match. Two dudes playing a little mental chess.
 
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I was watching this match but I had the sound muted. After the Burroughs extra curriculars, I told my wife that I'm sure he's hearing it from the crowd and rightly so. After seeing Burroughs and Manning react to what was said while walking away from the mat, I assumed it was something much worse than "your career is over". I mean, is that even an insult or more just a statement of fact? He said this was his last run. A better dig would have been something like, "hey, you forgot to leave your shoes!"

As far as booing and geering during or after wrestling matches, in my experience, strong spectator reactions typically occurs for two reasons: poor refereeing and poor behavior. I think both reasons apply to the match in question to some degree.
 
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Kale_yeah said:
Ask Michael Irving about his last game at veterans stadium, left on a stretcher and was only time he was cheered in Philly.
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I remember. The announcers were mortified that fans of an opposing team would boo a hated player. People get too offended anymore. Not what I would have done but I they will have to answer for it someday.
 
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Ruby Tues said:
Always liked JB as a wrestler and as person. Done many fantastic things for the sport and for our country. However, if you play the heel, you reap what you sow. You can't be shocked when you don't get the response you want.
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That is kind of my take as well. JB went heel on X but he didn't want to go full heel apparently. He wanted adoration for a career well fought.

Social media driving another wedge.
 
Pennstate1985 said:
I remember. The announcers were mortified that fans of an opposing team would boo a hated player. People get too offended anymore.
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That's not what the announcers were upset about. They were upset that the fans cheered a player getting seriously injured. And it wasn't a polite, encouraging applause. It was a full-on Roman Colosseum bloodbath type roar.

Irvin played his villain role as well as anyone ever has. But nobody ever deserves to have a neck injury celebrated.
 
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El-Jefe said:
The ref isn't getting nearly enough blame on all of this.

Obviously he let Burroughs get away with far too much on the sock pulls.

Also, if MItchell's behavior was too much, then he should have stopped it earlier before it got to the point of Burroughs retaliating.

Somehow all of the wrestling industry's Clear Thinkers have given the ref a pass on all of this.
Click to expand...
Bingo
 
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El-Jefe said:
That's not what the announcers were upset about. They were upset that the fans cheered a player getting seriously injured. And it wasn't a polite, encouraging applause. It was a full-on Roman Colosseum bloodbath type roar.

Irvin played his villain role as well as anyone ever has. But nobody ever deserves to have a neck injury celebrated.
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Right again, Sanderson always says this is a game, it should be enjoyed and only taken so seriously.
 
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El-Jefe said:
That's not what the announcers were upset about. They were upset that the fans cheered a player getting seriously injured. And it wasn't a polite, encouraging applause. It was a full-on Roman Colosseum bloodbath type roar.

Irvin played his villain role as well as anyone ever has. But nobody ever deserves to have a neck injury celebrated.
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I know what the announcers were upset about, but in a 70,000 person stadium with several hours of alcohol intake, you're going to get knuckleheads doing the wrong thing. It just is so why blame everyone. Same thing as Friday night. My point (poorly constructed) was that people need to stop generalizing when these issues occur and articulate that it's a vocal minority of fans, and probably has alcohol involved. Until they limit alcohol and/or start throwing people out for bad behavior, it doesn't help to blame everyone.
 
El-Jefe said:
The ref isn't getting nearly enough blame on all of this.

Obviously he let Burroughs get away with far too much on the sock pulls.

Also, if MItchell's behavior was too much, then he should have stopped it earlier before it got to the point of Burroughs retaliating.

Somehow all of the wrestling industry's Clear Thinkers have given the ref a pass on all of this.
Click to expand...
This is the bottom bottom bottom bottom line message I was trying to convey over my 500 posts this weekend.

Not that MM wasn’t guilty or Burroughs should get booed, etc. It’s that through it all, the tweeted take was a guy saying something that didn’t cross any line in the first place when there were clearly like 5 other takes more imperative to the situation.
 
mcpat said:
So grow the sport and bring in the casual fan, but:
  • No booing, even though it’s a combat sport; and
  • Insult new fans over their lack of knowledge
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I’ve gotten into this with Pyles and the Flo team on Twitter. As you grow it you are clearly going to be getting less traditional fans than previously. The median fan just mathematically will be dumber to the sport since the ones that are smart to it already watched it.

But they’d rather just make fun of those people. Gatekeepers and all.
 
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donboy6499 said:
I’ve gotten into this with Pyles and the Flo team on Twitter. As you grow it you are clearly going to be getting less traditional fans than previously. The median fan just mathematically will be dumber to the sport since the ones that are smart to it already watched it.

But they’d rather just make fun of those people. Gatekeepers and all.
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Some gatekeepers can't see thru Downey, at least not publicly.

Meanwhile, let's all have a laugh about an out-of-control heckler on Monday:
sports.yahoo.com

Yankees manager Aaron Boone ejected after fan mouths off to home plate umpire

You don't see an ejection like this every day.
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
 
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El-Jefe said:
The ref isn't getting nearly enough blame on all of this.

Obviously he let Burroughs get away with far too much on the sock pulls.

Also, if MItchell's behavior was too much, then he should have stopped it earlier before it got to the point of Burroughs retaliating.

Somehow all of the wrestling industry's Clear Thinkers have given the ref a pass on all of this.
Click to expand...
I’d like to give you a thousand likes for this! The ref was intimidated in front of JB while MM was not.
 
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mcpat said:
So grow the sport and bring in the casual fan, but:
  • No booing, even though it’s a combat sport; and
  • Insult new fans over their lack of knowledge
Click to expand...
I left the Facebook wrestling groups I had joined. Based on what I see there I would say the average wrestling fan is an idiot ( especially the non PSU fanbase, it seems they can't think like a normal person). And MMA fans are worse.
 
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