Cenzo cost me the LMS win. I still hold that against him and always will.
Best Ever PSU Wrestler
- Thread starter MSU158
- Start date
Going to be very difficult to go against a 4-timer, should that happen.
I would love to see that. Hidlay is only gonna get better though, and Pantaleo kept it close against a healthy Jason last year. Still--possible, and a 100% bonus rate for an entire season would be exactly the sort of record a guy like Jason deserves.
I think about this often. While DT may not have the quantity of titles, I think he and his style did more to reel in more fans of college wrestling than any other individual.
I was always a bigger fan of High School wrestling and thought college wrestling was a lot of moves, counter moves, etc. Maybe I was wrong, but that was the perception.
So, I’m going to cast my vote for DT, not because of the overall record, but because of the interest he brought to the sport.
I was always a bigger fan of High School wrestling and thought college wrestling was a lot of moves, counter moves, etc. Maybe I was wrong, but that was the perception.
So, I’m going to cast my vote for DT, not because of the overall record, but because of the interest he brought to the sport.
Bo has avenged every loss and he’s beaten an NCAA champ in his last 2 Finals appearances...one of them was Gabe freakin Dean (who was a Ruth away from seeking his 4th title, but a 3rd-1st-1st at that point anyway)...the other was Martin who he avenged his lone NCAA tourney loss against in dramatic fashion locking up a team title...INSANE!!! He may not go down as the best depending on how you look at things, but the dude has got to be the most prolific if he goes out #1 again!
Not to mention - depending on weight class shakeups...if he were to beat Martin or possibly Zahid in the finals next year - he’ll take three straight titles over 3 former champs...of course that’s all an “if” and what he’s already done is certainly impressive enough to hold his own in this debate...he wins it all this year against anyone and I think he gets my #1 vote...until then, give me Ruth
Not to mention - depending on weight class shakeups...if he were to beat Martin or possibly Zahid in the finals next year - he’ll take three straight titles over 3 former champs...of course that’s all an “if” and what he’s already done is certainly impressive enough to hold his own in this debate...he wins it all this year against anyone and I think he gets my #1 vote...until then, give me Ruth
I agree that DT has those intangibles nailed. That and a concept of "team" that was ground-breaking.
Nolf. Then Nickal. Then DT. The difference between one and two is small and will be determined. Obviously, both completely dismantled OSU guys at nationals this year. One in spectacular fashion, the other should have been arrested for abuse by the handicapped. The only one legged man who would win an ass kicking contest.
If I had to rank the best wins in program history (based upon opponent, not the moment) -- and I'm probably forgetting quite a few from the past ...
1. Zain over Stieber. 4x champ and was dominant that year, bonused every match not involving Zain.
2. McIntosh over Snyder.
3, 4: Cenzo over Martinez -- because otherwise Martinez is a 4x champ (though not quite as dominant as Stieber).
5. McIntosh over Cox.
6. Nolf over Martinez.
After that ... Kerry over Stephen Neal. Nico over Delgado. Ruth over Dean (though Dean was just a FR that year).
1. Zain over Stieber. 4x champ and was dominant that year, bonused every match not involving Zain.
2. McIntosh over Snyder.
3, 4: Cenzo over Martinez -- because otherwise Martinez is a 4x champ (though not quite as dominant as Stieber).
5. McIntosh over Cox.
6. Nolf over Martinez.
After that ... Kerry over Stephen Neal. Nico over Delgado. Ruth over Dean (though Dean was just a FR that year).
November 14, 2010 Penn State 21 Lehigh 17. The first big dual in the David Taylor era. Taylor and Andrew Alton each won by fall. After the match Alton said David came over to me when I was getting ready and said this is on us, you and me. You go out and pin your guy and I will pin mine and we (the team) got this. You and me, we got this.
From the day he showed up he owned it.
They were both young pups, but hardly unknown: I’d probably put Kolat over Zaddick on the list too.
Kolat has to be the best PSU wrestler to finish his career elsewhere, right?
#nocruiseliner
I think Taylor met more to the PSU program than any other wrestler. When he decided to follow Cael to Penn State it was the start of what Sanderson envisioned wrestling should be like. DT was the perfect wrestler to showcase the aggressive and creative style that seems to be the preferred PSU style.
I think Nolf has taken the Taylor approach to the next level. I believe Jason is the most creative wrestler I have ever scene.
Less we not forget Bo, who could be going for a 4th title if it wasn't for his Kamikaze approach his freshman year in the finals. But it's his attitude that makes him special and whywe witnessed what we saw last year.
I think Nolf has taken the Taylor approach to the next level. I believe Jason is the most creative wrestler I have ever scene.
Less we not forget Bo, who could be going for a 4th title if it wasn't for his Kamikaze approach his freshman year in the finals. But it's his attitude that makes him special and whywe witnessed what we saw last year.
I don't begrudge Cary for his move--he was obviously doing a lot of growing those years. Wish he could have had the Sanderson f*n treatment--he would've been scary good without all the pressure he put on himself. I was in Rec for that pin, still makes the hairs stand up on my neck.
There is no cut and dry criteria.
DT had an amazing NCAA career AND is doing very well in international wrestling. DT appears to be in good position for some gold medals in his future.
Cenzo has a very realistic shot at being a 4x champ but there were a few iffy losses and plenty of matches where he just made you nervous.
Zain was just plain dominant. He flat out imposed his will on his opponents. In the pick one guy to win one match criteria he is probably tops or tied with......
Nolf who I would also put very high on the one man to win one match criteria. The only caveat to that would be that he must know that this is a must win match and only wrestle at 75% of full NOLFNESS. What makes him so exciting also puts him at a very slight risk of getting stuck in those crazy scrambles he gets into. But if all the marbles were on the line he is an incredibly solid wrestler that has true mastery of all three positions. He can do it all and if doing it all isn't enough he can do things that you never knew possible until he just did it. No matter what numbers he finishes his career with and I fully expect him to run the table his last season with all or almost all bonus wins the thing about Nolf is that he will be that guy that people talk about well into the future as just being on a whole different level.
Ruth was incredible but I guess I hold it against him that he left wrestling for MMA instead of going after Olympic wrestling gold. I just can't get past the idea that if he is such a great wrestler why did he quit and do something else.
Bo has good stats and some good wins but he also has too many matches that were close or made you feel nervous, where some others on this list basically look invincible like Hulk Hogan squashing some jobbers.
DT had an amazing NCAA career AND is doing very well in international wrestling. DT appears to be in good position for some gold medals in his future.
Cenzo has a very realistic shot at being a 4x champ but there were a few iffy losses and plenty of matches where he just made you nervous.
Zain was just plain dominant. He flat out imposed his will on his opponents. In the pick one guy to win one match criteria he is probably tops or tied with......
Nolf who I would also put very high on the one man to win one match criteria. The only caveat to that would be that he must know that this is a must win match and only wrestle at 75% of full NOLFNESS. What makes him so exciting also puts him at a very slight risk of getting stuck in those crazy scrambles he gets into. But if all the marbles were on the line he is an incredibly solid wrestler that has true mastery of all three positions. He can do it all and if doing it all isn't enough he can do things that you never knew possible until he just did it. No matter what numbers he finishes his career with and I fully expect him to run the table his last season with all or almost all bonus wins the thing about Nolf is that he will be that guy that people talk about well into the future as just being on a whole different level.
Ruth was incredible but I guess I hold it against him that he left wrestling for MMA instead of going after Olympic wrestling gold. I just can't get past the idea that if he is such a great wrestler why did he quit and do something else.
Bo has good stats and some good wins but he also has too many matches that were close or made you feel nervous, where some others on this list basically look invincible like Hulk Hogan squashing some jobbers.
cenzo for 4 has picked up a lot of steam this summer....understandable of course....however
people should find out how we talk or not talk about it as it approaches, right????......just say'n but I dont want to jinx it and neither do you guys
#donttugonsupermanscape
#dontspitintothewind
#dontwin4untilyouwin3
people should find out how we talk or not talk about it as it approaches, right????......just say'n but I dont want to jinx it and neither do you guys
#donttugonsupermanscape
#dontspitintothewind
#dontwin4untilyouwin3
You can't imagine how many likes I would give this, if I could. "Should that happen" is as much as I'll say for the next two years, and I don't even like saying that for fear of being the one that put the curse on it.
By most career team points scored at NCAAs:
1. Taylor 101 (4th all time in NCAA history)
2. Ruth 96.5 (tied with Mark Churella for 5th all time)
3. Zain 93.5 (9th all time)
4. Wright 78
If Nolf and Nickal become 3xers and Joseph becomes a 4xer while matching the team points they’ve averaged in their other title years, here’s where they would end up:
1. Nolf 97 (he would take over 5th all time)
2. Nickal 93.5 (he would be tied with Retherford for 10th all time)
3. Joseph 88
3. Hall 88
It’s possible that Joseph becomes a four-time champ while contributing less to the team success than most of the two- and three-timers from the Cael era. (Fun fact: If Taylor and Ruth had matched Cenzo’s career average by scoring 22 points apiece at NCAAs instead of what they actually scored, the Okie State message board would have been renamed “35 & Counting” in 2013 and those 2014 Minnesota Goofer title tee-shirts would have had a domestic market.)
I know we’ve learned recently that team scoring is an artificial construct, but it has to count for something, doesn’t it?
1. Taylor 101 (4th all time in NCAA history)
2. Ruth 96.5 (tied with Mark Churella for 5th all time)
3. Zain 93.5 (9th all time)
4. Wright 78
If Nolf and Nickal become 3xers and Joseph becomes a 4xer while matching the team points they’ve averaged in their other title years, here’s where they would end up:
1. Nolf 97 (he would take over 5th all time)
2. Nickal 93.5 (he would be tied with Retherford for 10th all time)
3. Joseph 88
3. Hall 88
It’s possible that Joseph becomes a four-time champ while contributing less to the team success than most of the two- and three-timers from the Cael era. (Fun fact: If Taylor and Ruth had matched Cenzo’s career average by scoring 22 points apiece at NCAAs instead of what they actually scored, the Okie State message board would have been renamed “35 & Counting” in 2013 and those 2014 Minnesota Goofer title tee-shirts would have had a domestic market.)
I know we’ve learned recently that team scoring is an artificial construct, but it has to count for something, doesn’t it?
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Anthony Robles would like a word with you
Ed Ruth followed closely by Zain. Ed won titles at both 174 and 184 against stacked weight classes while finishing third as a freshmen. Zain same weight class all four years at maybe the least competitive weight with the exception of his first year with Logan there.
Both have 3 NCAA titles which is an amazing accomplishment!
Good news Bo, Jason, VJ, may all be in this conversation after this upcoming season
Both have 3 NCAA titles which is an amazing accomplishment!
Good news Bo, Jason, VJ, may all be in this conversation after this upcoming season
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Tough to argue with this statistic...shows just how valuable Taylor was in a standard mathematical fashion...the intangibles - who did they beat, how many total losses did they have, what did they do on the “biggest” stage - are what makes it an interesting debate. NCAA scoring is probably the best way to rank value based on objective criteria...
But, the argument was best wrestler, not most valuable.
If it were most valuable, I would definitely agree that it was, and still is, David Taylor.
Fwiw, career team points at B1Gs:
1. Taylor 93.0
2. Zain 87.5
3. Ruth 85.5
4. Wright 70.5
And career projections for the active guys:
1. Hall 80.0
2. Nickal 78.0
3. Nolf 75.5
4. Joseph 65.0
I could use a little guidance on the distinction ...
If you are trying to win a team title, you would want your most valuable wrestler on the mat.
When would you prefer to have your "best wrestler" on the mat?
Even the term "best" open to interpretation. If you're looking for most accomplished then it goes down almost complete statistical data. I don't quite get the "best" vs "valuable" different either unless you are trying to say that DT was the most valuable to the short and then long term success of the program? I agree with that.
But to say "best" does include intangibles and then also eye-test.
This is a tremendously fun conversation to have and the best thread here in the last few weeks but I maintain, you could create a legit argument for any of these guys.
Also, one thing I hate about these debates normally is that usually people jump on the minuses in order to pump up the others. Manning vs. Brady is always about the minuses of Manning rather than the pluses for both. In this thread though, it's been all about the good things for each guy without detracting from anyone. That has made this a good conversation.
Thoroughly enjoyed the variety of responses. We certainly are blessed.
If there was a guy that stood out from all others, statistically-speaking (wins/losses), character-wise, or any other tangible or intangible metric, this would be easy, right? Well, that's exactly why it isn't.
Regardless of how I twist and turn my thoughts (change my mind on criteria, or definition of "best"), the same guy doesn't always show up #1. It's like comparing Zain and Jason...for the past 3 years, similar stats, but entirely different wrestling style, very different personalities, in fact different in almost every way...except both won, and won convincingly.
The FUN for me in this thread was reading all the different thoughts, not that someone had to be right. There is no right, imo.
Best
adjective, superl. of good with better as compar.
If there was a guy that stood out from all others, statistically-speaking (wins/losses), character-wise, or any other tangible or intangible metric, this would be easy, right? Well, that's exactly why it isn't.
Regardless of how I twist and turn my thoughts (change my mind on criteria, or definition of "best"), the same guy doesn't always show up #1. It's like comparing Zain and Jason...for the past 3 years, similar stats, but entirely different wrestling style, very different personalities, in fact different in almost every way...except both won, and won convincingly.
The FUN for me in this thread was reading all the different thoughts, not that someone had to be right. There is no right, imo.
Best
adjective, superl. of good with better as compar.
- of the highest quality, excellence, or standing: the best work; the best students.
- most advantageous, suitable, or desirable: the best way.
- largest; most: the best part of a day.
Zain wrestled 141, 149. My pick is Zain was 18 years old in his 1st NCAA championship. That year was 1-2 vs a 4x champ (that was 21 during his 1st NCAA championship.) Then Zain went on to have 3 undefeated seasons that he dominated.
Are you guys (mac, cat) guilty of legsism?
As in, let’s just lump anyone with fewer than 2 legs into the same category?
As in:
“Kung Pao Chicken is the best Chinese food!”
“Sushi says hello!”
this is where Jammen to this day lives.....long dark train ride in the grey area
Nolf is my favorite of the group to watch style wise.
Technically, I think Retherford is probably on top.
Career-wise, probably Bo. If he wins two more then Cenzo would be right there but as far as impact Bo has the best win in program maybe NCAA history so would still be ahead IMO.
Overall best, probably David.
Given little to no chance of winning yet coming through when it matters most. If VJ is a 4X, I'll take him. (at least until the next 4X'er)
I think winning individual titles can be overrated in the team context. For example, who would you rather have on your team in 2013 - DT or Dake? DT, despite losing to Dake in the final, still garnered more team points than did Dake. So I would rather have DT on my team.
