Football Can fans be upset with James Franklin if he gets Penn State to 11-1?

[IANit]

Tuesdays with Gorney: Really good isn't good enough at Penn State

James Franklin is now 3-19 against top-10 opponents at Penn State.

pennstate.rivals.com

I don't like the against vs. Top 10 stat. If you want to really pile on, he was 0-5 vs. Top 10 at Vanderbilt.

But they were never expected to win those games.

At Penn State he was 0-3 while unranked until he got a win at home over #2 Ohio State. He then beat Wisconsin in the BCG (8v6 matchup) and lost to USC (5v9) in what was basically an away game. We got up to #2 the following year when we played #6 Ohio State. The pre-season rankings were reversed, but they had a loss at the time we played and we didn't. We lost 39-38 in a de facto championship game at Ohio State as a 6.5 point dog. The next 9 we lost were 9v4, 14v5, 9v2 and 18v3, 4v3,20v5,23v9,10v5,13v2. I.e. Favored in none of them. We did beat Utah as a 9v7. We lost as 7v3 and 9v2 last year and most recently as 3v4, but we were home underdogs and again expected to finish behind Ohio State since they had a $20 million roster and were everyone's pre-season national championship pick.

If people want to use stats to say Franklin's a bad coach, they can do that, but realistically he's had the team about where expected given who he's playing. Most of the time in the Top 10 matchups he's been the underdog based on rankings/talent. He's 0-3 when Penn State is the higher-ranked team at the moment, but even there two of those were against Ohio State teams that were absolutely loaded and expected to win by most. The other was basically a road game against USC.

 

[saturdaysarebetter2]

Some Penn State "fans" would be upset at Franklin if Penn State went 15-0 and winning the national championship because they didn't win by enough.

 

[IANit]

Are you really telling me that if PSU cuts ties with Franklin and hires somebody cheaper that you aren't going to expect wins vs OSU? Vs Michigan? Playoff berths? Playoff victories?

Yeah right. I don't believe that for a second. And unless the school de-emphasizes football, it will never occur.

The whole point of "fire Franklin" is about finding someone who can beat OSU. The money, for us as fans, is an irrelevant topic unless it's NIL contributions.

Here's the list of people we know can beat tOSU with Day:
2019 - Dabo
2020 - Saban
2021 - Cristobal, Harbaugh
2022 - Harbaugh,Smart
2023 - Harbaugh,Drinkwitz (but with optouts, so not really)

No one on that list is coming to PSU. So anyone you hire to replace Franklin would be a gamble.

 

[lazydave841]

but realistically he's had the team about where expected given who he's playing.

Here's the kicker for me. How many games has OSU lost in the past decade? How many have they lost under Day?

Day has only lost to Michigan (who cheated) and Oregon in conference. That's it. No upsets. His other losses are to Bama, UGA, Clemson, and Mizzou.

Meyer at least lost to some underdogs (Sparty, Va Tech, us, Iowa, Purdue), but didn't lose all of his big/playoff games.

The streak they are on this decade is crazy. And there are people unhappy with it because they don't have a title.

 

[PurposePitch]

Here's the kicker for me. How many games has OSU lost in the past decade? How many have they lost under Day?

Day has only lost to Michigan (who cheated) and Oregon in conference. That's it. No upsets. His other losses are to Bama, UGA, Clemson, and Mizzou.

Meyer at least lost to some underdogs (Sparty, Va Tech, us, Iowa, Purdue), but didn't lose all of his big/playoff games.

The streak they are on this decade is crazy. And there are people unhappy with it because they don't have a title.

Day also lost to Oregon, out of conference, in an "upset" (3 v 12 - the horra!) in 2021.

 

[LandoComando]

Here's the list of people we know can beat tOSU with Day:
2019 - Dabo
2020 - Saban
2021 - Cristobal, Harbaugh
2022 - Harbaugh,Smart
2023 - Harbaugh,Drinkwitz (but with optouts, so not really)

No one on that list is coming to PSU. So anyone you hire to replace Franklin would be a gamble.

Why isn't Saban?
But, using your list. Who were Dabo and Smart before their sucess?
I don't understand why people are afraid of change.
Franklin isn't and shouldn't be fired this year assuming he wins out and goes 11-1. Less than that would be another failure--he'd have to win a playoff game to excuse a 10-2 record.
He can't fall off next year regardless of who leaves but he's here for at least 3 more years--if nothing changes there has to be a change for 2026

 

[harbest]

A great coach once said you are getting better or you are getting worse. I think PSU is still getting better but tOSU continues to be the one thorn in our sides.

10 and 11 win seasons look good in history but when it's the same 2 teams that are the 2 loses every year, something has to be done about that. That type of status quo will not fly.

 

[PSUSignore]

I'll say this for OSU. They weren't the ones who had a player kicked out of the Oregon game for spitting and they weren't the ones who had two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties in the first half of the PSU game. If you watch that team play, and I watch them as much as I can, I respect how disciplined their players are and, for the most past, how they play the game without the histrionics that have become all too common these days, especially with receivers and d-backs.

You are seeing what you want to see. In just this PSU game alone from memory I remember the OSU DBs waving their hands to mock PSU's no fly zone celebration, Will Howard signaling first down after a run and celebrating like every team does, one of their defensive players throwing a towel directly at Allar's head when he's already lined up to take a snap. That's one game and only from memory. OSU does all of the same stuff you see from just about every team, every single game.

 

[PSUSignore]

Franklin is all talk and little substance. "I own this"..."Nobody is looking in the mirror harder", whatever. I still can't believe that whole offensive staff were so negligent in not getting Warren the ball on the 3 yard line, game hanging in the balance. He has admitted that needed to happen. You think, genius? I think putting Warren in the shotgun then having him plow ahead only to stop after a yard and jump pass it to Dinkins who was in tight blocking then slips off the line of scrimmage was worth a try.

Let's pretend they ran that exact play and Warren threw an INT. Today you'd be posting and asking why they took the ball out of the QB's hands at a critical point in the game and had a TE playing QB when he obviously doesn't get as many practice reps at that position as Allar. You guys all do the same thing, complain about every single thing after it has happened with hindsight bias. None of you will ever be happy with Franklin unless he has Saban levels of success. It's getting tiresome.

 

[bcspsu]

You are seeing what you want to see. In just this PSU game alone from memory I remember the OSU DBs waving their hands to mock PSU's no fly zone celebration, Will Howard signaling first down after a run and celebrating like every team does, one of their defensive players throwing a towel directly at Allar's head when he's already lined up to take a snap. That's one game and only from memory. OSU does all of the same stuff you see from just about every team, every single game.

The towel was thrown to get it out of the way of play; the OSU player tossed it behind the PSU line because he didn't have time to throw it anywhere else and that was the location where it would do the least damage.

I stand by my statement that OSU mostly is businesslike and their players act like they've been there before.

 

[bcspsu]

Let's pretend they ran that exact play and Warren threw an INT. Today you'd be posting and asking why they took the ball out of the QB's hands at a critical point in the game and had a TE playing QB when he obviously doesn't get as many practice reps at that position as Allar. You guys all do the same thing, complain about every single thing after it has happened with hindsight bias. None of you will ever be happy with Franklin unless he has Saban levels of success. It's getting tiresome.

Conceptually, the run on first down was acceptable. In fact, Stan Savran always would say that he preferred a run on first and goal, and I always respected his opinion. However, running the same play on second and third downs and not letting one of the best players in all of college football touch the ball was absurd, especially since the first run gained almost nothing and OSU had stuffed Nebraska the previous week on several goal line runs up the middle.

 

[PSUSignore]

The towel was thrown to get it out of the way of play; the OSU player tossed it behind the PSU line because he didn't have time to throw it anywhere else and that was the location where it would do the least damage.

I stand by my statement that OSU mostly is businesslike and their players act like they've been there before.

I have seen players throw towels out of their way a ton of times. Never once have I see someone throw it towards an opposing player, until last Saturday. They usually throw it somewhere on their own side of the ball but away from where anyone is standing so it's out of the way.

 

[bcspsu]

I have seen players throw towels out of their way a ton of times. Never once have I see someone throw it towards an opposing player, until last Saturday. They usually throw it somewhere on their own side of the ball but away from where anyone is standing so it's out of the way.

Well, they were backed up to their own goal line and time was running down; I had no problem with that incident. I assume that it was a PSU player's towel, so perhaps that why he tossed it in the PSU backfield.

 

[PSUSignore]

Well, they were backed up to their own goal line and time was running down; I had no problem with that incident. I assume that it was a PSU player's towel, so perhaps that why he tossed it in the PSU backfield.

So he didn't have time to just toss it behind him or to the side, but he did have time to first determine the owner of said towel so he could throw it to that side of the line of scrimmage? I don't even care about the towel thing, it's just an example that OSU players aren't the choir boys you seem to think they are. I have little doubt whoever threw that towel knew exactly what they were doing when throwing it at Allar's face while he was lined up to take a snap.

 

[ryoder1]

Let's pretend they ran that exact play and Warren threw an INT. Today you'd be posting and asking why they took the ball out of the QB's hands at a critical point in the game and had a TE playing QB when he obviously doesn't get as many practice reps at that position as Allar. You guys all do the same thing, complain about every single thing after it has happened with hindsight bias. None of you will ever be happy with Franklin unless he has Saban levels of success. It's getting tiresome.

And you will have excuses for Franklin no matter what he does. Of course you can Monday morning quarterback everything. The bigger point is he ran the same play 3 times in a row. Who does that? Then he admits they should have gotten Warren involved more. It just does not ensure any confidence in Franklin when we are in these clutch moments.

 

[crm114psu]

We were dominated at the line of scrimmage, both sides of the ball. We could not run and they could. If the situation had been reversed and we took over at our own one yard line with 5 minutes and change do you think we could have ground out a drive to clinch the game? No way, we would have been stuffed then punting from our end zone. OSU takes over and goes downhill for the tying TD.

Franklin is all talk and little substance. "I own this"..."Nobody is looking in the mirror harder", whatever. I still can't believe that whole offensive staff were so negligent in not getting Warren the ball on the 3 yard line, game hanging in the balance. He has admitted that needed to happen. You think, genius? I think putting Warren in the shotgun then having him plow ahead only to stop after a yard and jump pass it to Dinkins who was in tight blocking then slips off the line of scrimmage was worth a try.

Franklin's ego and stubbornness is the major reason we lost that game. His record against OSU is right out there front and center to the nation and it eats at him every day. He can't walk off to the corner of the stage and have some flunky take the hit for his poor performance in these situations. His response is to make sure he has a scapegoat waiting in the wings to point the finger at to fire.

Until he shows that he can keep his ego in check, he will continue to lose against equal or better talent. He may never be able to learn how to deal with his limitations. Saying he owns it means nothing, what is he going to do about it?

 

[IANit]

Let's pretend they ran that exact play and Warren threw an INT. Today you'd be posting and asking why they took the ball out of the QB's hands at a critical point in the game and had a TE playing QB when he obviously doesn't get as many practice reps at that position as Allar. You guys all do the same thing, complain about every single thing after it has happened with hindsight bias. None of you will ever be happy with Franklin unless he has Saban levels of success. It's getting tiresome.

It probably pre-dates Kotelnicki, but any PSU fan old enough to remember our 1979 Sugar Bowl loss probably still gets PTSD when we try to run the ball up the middle in goal-to-go situations. I sure do. I can't believe with the game on the line we go 10 against 11 with a lineman running out wide and not blocking anyone 3 straight times while we hand off to Fatman up the middle against a team that's better than us on the interior. Remember the words of Marty Lyons - "you better pass." Maybe Drew was shell-shocked after the interception Igbinosun made at the end of the half and Kotelnicki didn't want to tempt fate again.

 

[Springcity]

True. However, it reminds me of my mother who was a huge Steelers fan. She knew her football but having never played, some of the nuance escaped her. So when she got angry she'd yell "why don't they try harder?!"

Of course, games are often won on days other than game days. Plus, some kids are just more gifted than others. I will never play center for an NBA team because i wasn't gifted.

There is a reason why a kid is a five star and a four star.

hell, we may have lost because two players were charged with crimes and thrown off the team. That depth sure would have come in handy.

Smart post!

 

[m.knox]

A great coach once said you are getting better or you are getting worse. I think PSU is still getting better but tOSU continues to be the one thorn in our sides.

At this point, it might be more like a curse in our sides....

4 plays from 3 yards out and you can't put up a TD................ Gotta have a play for that.

 

[voltz99]

Tuesdays with Gorney: Really good isn't good enough at Penn State

James Franklin is now 3-19 against top-10 opponents at Penn State.

pennstate.rivals.com

Many won't be happy til joes corpse is propped up on the sidelines.


They would rather go 6-6 with golden, schiano or rhule. They will then spin it as Success with honor.

 

[Obliviax]

Many won't be happy til joes corpse is propped up on the sidelines.


They would rather go 6-6 with golden, schiano or rhule. They will then spin it as Success with honor.

that is what I want. I'd love to see a depiction of joe on the sideline.

 

[ryoder1]

Many won't be happy til joes corpse is propped up on the sidelines.


They would rather go 6-6 with golden, schiano or rhule. They will then spin it as Success with honor.

3-19 and you're satisfied.

 

[LandoComando]

Many won't be happy til joes corpse is propped up on the sidelines.


They would rather go 6-6 with golden, schiano or rhule. They will then spin it as Success with honor.

That's like 3% of the fan base

 

[voltz99]

I don't like the against vs. Top 10 stat. If you want to really pile on, he was 0-5 vs. Top 10 at Vanderbilt.

But they were never expected to win those games.

At Penn State he was 0-3 while unranked until he got a win at home over #2 Ohio State. He then beat Wisconsin in the BCG (8v6 matchup) and lost to USC (5v9) in what was basically an away game. We got up to #2 the following year when we played #6 Ohio State. The pre-season rankings were reversed, but they had a loss at the time we played and we didn't. We lost 39-38 in a de facto championship game at Ohio State as a 6.5 point dog. The next 9 we lost were 9v4, 14v5, 9v2 and 18v3, 4v3,20v5,23v9,10v5,13v2. I.e. Favored in none of them. We did beat Utah as a 9v7. We lost as 7v3 and 9v2 last year and most recently as 3v4, but we were home underdogs and again expected to finish behind Ohio State since they had a $20 million roster and were everyone's pre-season national championship pick.

If people want to use stats to say Franklin's a bad coach, they can do that, but realistically he's had the team about where expected given who he's playing. Most of the time in the Top 10 matchups he's been the underdog based on rankings/talent. He's 0-3 when Penn State is the higher-ranked team at the moment, but even there two of those were against Ohio State teams that were absolutely loaded and expected to win by most. The other was basically a road game against USC.

How many coaches do you think have winning records vs the top 5?

Usually Only a couple coaches a year. #1 and #2 who then split in the final.

 

[voltz99]

11-1 is not satisfactory if it doesn’t lead to the playoffs and a competitive run at the national championship. With Franklin, that Wii never happen.

Where were you during joes last 15 years?

Probably making excuses and pushing success with honor for the lack of success.

 

[voltz99]

That's like 3% of the fan base

You have no way of knowing that. It is probably way more. It also like half the posters. 75% of the posters after a loss.

 

[voltz99]

11-1 is fine...if he wins a playoff game

No. You will say it was an eexhibition. There will be opt outs.

 

[bcspsu]

How many coaches do you think have winning records vs the top 5?

Usually Only a couple coaches a year. #1 and #2 who then split in the final.

Is Franklin's record against OSU frustrating? Of course. However, there are a lot of factors that have gone into that. I believe that Kirby Smart is 1-6 against Bama, and he's had one of the two or three most talented rosters for the better part of the last decade. I believe that Franklin's record against OSU eventually will revert to the mean like it was under Paterno.

I look at this way. Franklin undeniably has positioned this program very well to be relevant almost every season and be a legitimate top 5 to 10 team. I believe that the talent level in this program is as good as it's been since the mid 90s. Also, just based on the attendance, it seems as if interest in this program is at an all time high. Based on this, I believe that he's doing a very good job.

 

[LandoComando]

You have no way of knowing that. It is probably way more. It also like half the posters. 75% of the posters after a loss.

Criticizing Franklin for his inability to beat Ohio State doesn't mean they want Rhule here to win 6 games

 

[LandoComando]

No. You will say it was an eexhibition. There will be opt outs.

There won't be any opt outs
I'll never say a playoff game is an exhibition because it's win and move on. This is basic
You still think I'm anti-Franklin when all I've ever said is if he can't next the next step and becomes Richt we have to move on. That's not bashing him. That's the reality of this industry.

 

[saturdaysarebetter2]

Fans can complain about Franklin's record against Ohio State, but Joe lost nine in a row to Michigan and went through a stretch of losing five in a row and eight out of nine against Iowa. Iowa!

 

[voltz99]

Are you really telling me that if PSU cuts ties with Franklin and hires somebody cheaper that you aren't going to expect wins vs OSU? Vs Michigan? Playoff berths? Playoff victories?

Yeah right. I don't believe that for a second. And unless the school de-emphasizes football, it will never occur.

The whole point of "fire Franklin" is about finding someone who can beat OSU. The money, for us as fans, is an irrelevant topic unless it's NIL contributions.

How many coaches in the entire ncaa have good records vs osu?

0 wins combined vs osu for the coaches that psu fans want to replace Franklin.

 

[voltz99]

There won't be any opt outs
I'll never say a playoff game is an exhibition because it's win and move on. This is basic
You still think I'm anti-Franklin when all I've ever said is if he can't next the next step and becomes Richt we have to move on. That's not bashing him. That's the reality of this industry.

Players will opt out.

 

[LandoComando]

Fans can complain about Franklin's record against Ohio State, but Joe lost nine in a row to Michigan and went through a stretch of losing five in a row and eight out of nine against Iowa. Iowa!

And most of us wanted Joe ran out of town--he should have been

 

[LandoComando]

Players will opt out.

They will absolutely not--the only people entering the portal are going to be non-contributors that are leaving the program
No one is opting out to prepare for the draft. It's illogical and it's why no one has ever opted out of a playoff game so far.

 

[voltz99]

Fans can complain about Franklin's record against Ohio State, but Joe lost nine in a row to Michigan and went through a stretch of losing five in a row and eight out of nine against Iowa. Iowa!

Do t forget joes annual loss to Iowa. Joe also had a losing record vs iowa and osu.

Franklin should use joes old schedule and schedule army, navy, airforce, Syracuse. Pitt, wvu, bc or temple instead of osu and Michigan.

 

[voltz99]

And most of us wanted Joe ran out of town--he should have been

Yet he was not run out of town. Wasn't there a riot when he was eventually fired?

 

[voltz99]

They will absolutely not--the only people entering the portal are going to be non-contributors that are leaving the program
No one is opting out to prepare for the draft. It's illogical and it's why no one has ever opted out of a playoff game so far.

It is not about the portal. Players will opt out so they are healthy for the draft. $$$$$$

 

[LandoComando]

Yet he was not run out of town. Wasn't there a riot when he was eventually fired?

Correct--he wasn't and he should have been
The riot was over the reason he was fired not that he was fired but his cult was also wrong for that.

 

[LandoComando]

It is not about the portal. Players will opt out so they are healthy for the draft. $$$$$$

You're wrong and the playoff so far has proven that and will continue to prove that
The NFL doesn't care if players opt out of meaningless bowl games--they will not look kindly on anyone skipping a game that has meaning and players know that--there's agents make them very aware
You just want that to happen