I believe Vito. There's no reason for him to duck anyone since he's going to destroy everyone if he's on top of his game anyway, so if he says he was a little dinged and didn't want to chance it, that's probably true. The others are suspicious, especially considering they did the same thing last year.
Collegiate Duals
- Thread starter jmadden1998
- Start date
I don’t think any wrestler is afraid of anyone. Also Vito isn’t ducking a kid who I think he probably techs.
But “we had injuries specifically to all our top guys who had ranked matchups” isn’t exactly an argument that passes the smell test to me.
Agreed. Are we ducking when our big guns don’t go every match? Doubt it. At decision time, perhaps rest is a better choice, even for a nagging or minor injury. Or non-starter work is useful or needed for later lineup or redshirt calls. Same for all team coaches, who unfortunately (for fans) won’t be deciding based on customers paying to see top wrestlers. Will true duckers-for-seed possibly gain a higher one in March? Maybe. I’ll then trust the wrestling gods to even things out with an unexpected, even “upsetting” matchup with a fired-up, hellbent underdog. In the end, I think all "no valid reason" duckers get what they deserve.
Honestly, the part that surprised me most about the current Cornell debate is that Grey, Arujau and Diakomihalis all decided that chiming in on Twitter/X was the best way to address it. Love it or hate it, sometimes it seems like that Sanderson fella's attitude towards social media has some wisdom behind it . . .
That would make him a mother ducker. Who would want that ? 😉
The problem is that in almost every case of "ducking" the coaches do have legitimate reasons to hold guys out beyond seed protection. Everyone is banged up. In the past, there was more of a cultural aversion to not wrestling hurt. Now everyone holds guys out when they're not 100% and wrestling someone good.
Why? Because the success of your season comes down to one weekend in March and it makes total sense to sacrifice results during the year to do everything in your power to bring the healthiest team to NCAA's. The two ways to address this imo are
1) Dual Team Title - in other sports you see athletes on top teams play hurt because losing one game can ruin an entire season. You don't see that in wrestling because it's not a thing. As long as you get to the dance, you've got a chance. Don't see this happening.
2) Seed Punishment - This will 100% punish guys who are legitimately hurt and can't wrestle, but I think it's the only way to incentivize teams to wrestle guys who are 80-90% against quality opponents. You miss a match against a guy who qualifies, that counts as a loss in your seeding criteria.
Why? Because the success of your season comes down to one weekend in March and it makes total sense to sacrifice results during the year to do everything in your power to bring the healthiest team to NCAA's. The two ways to address this imo are
1) Dual Team Title - in other sports you see athletes on top teams play hurt because losing one game can ruin an entire season. You don't see that in wrestling because it's not a thing. As long as you get to the dance, you've got a chance. Don't see this happening.
2) Seed Punishment - This will 100% punish guys who are legitimately hurt and can't wrestle, but I think it's the only way to incentivize teams to wrestle guys who are 80-90% against quality opponents. You miss a match against a guy who qualifies, that counts as a loss in your seeding criteria.
Would probably help if coaches would actually give an injury report. They do in other sports. The fact that it's kept so close to the vest in wrestling inspires many to assume there is ducking involved. And I get the argument of oh there is privacy but when involved in major sports, college or otherwise, there needs to be some accountability not some bullshit excuse that you all don't know what's really going on and I do from the coach. The fact remains that sports have fans and fans pay money to watch a product as Cael so apply stated ten years ago. If I'm paying money to watch a dual then half the team doesn't wrestle then why did I spend the money. That's one argument.
I agree and the fact that yani and Vito have come out to back him up just lends credibility to assumptions that grey is full of shit.
There is a nuclear option too: random draws at NCAAs… But yeah, pretty much this.
You see, I don't think that would address anything. If your seed doesn't matter at all, coaches are going to hold guys out even more whenever they're not feeling 100% to protect further injury and/or confidence.
Maybe they should stop being wussies I think the best wrestlers that ever wrestled, wrestled hurt at times. Look at some of the most recent ones like Spencer and nolf among others. It's part of the sport in a lot of ways. Really what wrestler in division one right now can say I have absolutely no injuries and feel 100 percent. By March that idea is non existent which just adds to the notion that wrestlers are straight up bad mother ****ers
This pretty much sums it up. Without transparency the dual season feels extremely compromised as a something to get excited about and as a means for seeding in March. (Exhibit A)The Colton Schultz duck.
As fans we hate to see guys sitting regardless of the reason. If a guy gets a couple tickets to take a kid that loves wrestling to the Hofstra match and they get there and get to see David Evans, Connor Pierce, and AJ Fricchione. This is not meant as a slam against these guys, but people want to see the starters. If you love watching Aaron Brooks and look forward to him wrestling Michael Beard and he doesn't go. It is always disappointing regardless of the reason.
Good point. It would remove "ducking" by definition, but there are other reasons not to wrestle a guy. I still don't like the dual as championship though--it just seems so forced for a primarily individual sport. Personally--I don't get as worked up about these as most. So I guess I'm more or less OK w/ the way things are. I can see how it might harm the bottom line of the sport though. I don't have a vote anyway (other than my money, which I give freely to BTN, Flo and Rokfin, and soon UWW & USAW too, I imagine, lol . . .) 🤷♂️
Both of those guys sat out when they were hurt to allow them to perform at their best for the one weekend that matters. Not a good example. It's exactly the dynamic we're talking about.
Injuries happen and guys miss matches. That’s fine. My issue comes when the same guy is healthy enough to wrestle 2 hours earlier against a decidedly less threatening opponent.
The problem remains that wrestling has essentially become an individual sport that only values a 3 day tournament in March. Nothing else matters except that weekend. As long as this is the case, dings and twinges and seed protection will take priority until that weekend. It’s a problem that probably isnt going away and will prevent growth in mass appeal.
I think injury reports are a function of the cozy relationship with sports betting in other sports.
Maybe Iowa can break new ground for our sport then.
As someone who plays college fantasy football, I can tell you that college football does not have to provide an injury report. Some teams/conferences do, some don't. It's very frustrating. I like that pro football teams have to provide an accurate report and update it daily or face a fine/suspension.
The least surprising part was Grey's wife chiming in on Twitter.
Exactly. What's more logical?
Scenario #1
- Ramirez - after a great performance in the first 2 matches including a MD over a AA threat in Heller,sit to preserve the early season win and count on Carr being able to knock off O'Toole at least once in two tries (He's 2-1 vs. O'Toole so far) and grab the #1 seed with Carr/O'Toole on the other side. - BLATANT DUCK
- Shapiro - coming back from being a little banged up and put in some good work early, but 3 matches in a day, especially with the last one against Chittum is probably not ideal - COACH LOOKING OUT FOR HIS KID
- Vito - nothing to prove and a pitch count isn't the worst idea for him. With the other two out, very little chance they beat ISU and sitting Vito also draws some of the attention away from the Ramirez duck and Grey may think it provides him a little cover - GREY THINKING THE WRESTLING WORLD IS STUPID
Scenario #2
- Cornell had injuries specific to all their top guys who had ranked matchups
So for all the people who are upset about this kind of ducking (and I completely get it, it stinks for fans)--is it that you just hope coaches stop doing it out of a spirit of competition, or are you hoping to fundamentally change the sport like a dual championship would? The former sounds a lot like "refs should just call stalling more" to me (an opinions fans can espouse--I certainly have--but which has little to no practical application). But I do NOT favor that latter in any permutation I've seen proposed to date--and I doubt most here would either. Genuinely wondering.
I would love to see a workable version of a dual championship. I just don't know what exactly that would look like.
It’s the first, for me. But it holds more water than the refs calling stalling thing IMO. Because we’ve seen the sport in the not too distant past where these big matchups would happen regularly.
You guys that want to punish athletes by lowering seeds don't get the reason for seeding.
Lets say Gable Steveson ducks the whole.season except for the Bigs, wrestles enough to make.it to the show by forfeiting to 6-8th place. .
Do you seed him #1 ( he is the best in the weight) or punish him and seed him low where he will bust the bracket.
Lets say Gable Steveson ducks the whole.season except for the Bigs, wrestles enough to make.it to the show by forfeiting to 6-8th place. .
Do you seed him #1 ( he is the best in the weight) or punish him and seed him low where he will bust the bracket.
Thanks for answering, Clay. I mean, it certainly seems like Grey felt some heat about it all, so maybe you're right, and the "culture" can change again, but it's certainly not the current trajectory.
I think I blocked her--haven't seen her stuff in a long time, and I'm not complainin
I think it’s possible and really not all that difficult to strike a balance between not wearing your guys into the ground and also not wrestling in them in difficult matches throughout the season.
Jealously doesn’t look good on anyone
Hmmm...a lot of similarities with our new, too-frequent visitor...
Here's another issue with the ducking, people bought tickets, lodging, transportation to attend this event, for those that didn't, they paid $25 for PPV. Let's be honest, they did it for those high level matchups that they expected to happen and then they don't get it. Simply put, that is unacceptable.
But I know, I know "Health comes first" or "You don't know the story" That's another thing with ducking, it's so simple to just pull the "health" card but as Clay said, when it's your top guys that all wrestled the entire weekend that conveniently matched up against a guy they could have lost to and hurt their seed? Yeah no, nobody is buying it.
But I know, I know "Health comes first" or "You don't know the story" That's another thing with ducking, it's so simple to just pull the "health" card but as Clay said, when it's your top guys that all wrestled the entire weekend that conveniently matched up against a guy they could have lost to and hurt their seed? Yeah no, nobody is buying it.
She's the junior high Karen parent whose kids left junior high but she stuck around anyway because she cares more than the next wave of parents.
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Some of this can be fixed by the event coordinators -- ISU vs Cornell didn't have to be last in a round robin.
Then again, Dresser didn't sit anyone.
Its both. All wrestlers are always dinged. They call pull the “I’m protecting my kids” card at any time. The fact that he/they chose the Collegiate Duals and the toughest matchups to do it is the problem. Take an off day when u need it. But not at the Collegiate duals where people are paying to watch and they are trying to grow the sport. If ur not going to put ur best team out there, why commit do doing the Duals?? Do tournaments, do opens, schedule duals against 2nd tier teams. You have so many other options. But, to me, if you are signing your program up for the Collegiate Duals you have a responsibility to wrestle ur best. Of course, MAYBE someone got hurt leading up to the last match. It certainly could happen and, if so - then fine. But there’s NO WAY significant injuries happen as often as it appears.
If she and Sammy Brooks’ Mullet both fell into a crevasse, I wouldn’t exactly shed a tear.
The latter was easily the biggest whiner I ever saw on Twitter when I was able to lurk. Cael resides in that guy’s nightmares
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