Death Threat to PSU Beta Members

[Pardlion]

I have continually spoken out in this thread, and others, about rushing to judgment, but some of the posts here which attempt to explain away excessive alcohol consumption (e.g. "it was voluntary") and hazing astound me. I have limited time today so I will leave it at that.

Not sure what your astonishment is, but piazza absolutely knew that he was participating in a drinking event. I believe that he sent a text message prior to the event acknowledging that his expectation that he would engage in heavy drinking. That said, the GJ Presentment does not even describe what I would consider to be a particularly heavy or unmanageable alcohol consumption as a part of the activity, which I consider to be light hazing at most.

The real problem here is what happened after he fell, not what led up to it. The failure to get help seems to me to be a result of some combination of the internalized nature of the injuries, the inexperience/ineptitude of the other kids, and their fear of consequences of their underage drinking event at a dry house.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Then let's be a little more specific. According to the Presentment, the Gauntlet for Piazza consisted of the following:

1. Vodka chug for 8 seconds or less
2. Shotgun a beer
3. Bat spin followed by drinking a beer
4. Drink a beer if he missed throwing his ball in a cup.

So, it's not like he was chugging grain for 19 minutes.

I can chug a 16.9 oz bottle of water in 8 seconds. That the equivalent of over 10 shots. Even half of that is still 5 shots. Two beers for the shot gun and bat spin. Typically a game of beer pong is 10 cups. If playing with a partner let just guess he drank half which is another 5. So that estimates of 12 drinks. Even if you are doing a conservative estimate and only go with 10 drinks for a 160lb male in an hour with a high tolerance is going to have BAC of over .2.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Your post is Nuts! This is a very sad situation but telling his son who could be a model student to leave Penn State is simply out of line.............

How is it out of line if he really feels scared for his kid' safety to just to transfer? That sounds like a better solution then asking for a pity party on a message board.

 

[Pardlion]

I can chug a 16.9 oz bottle of water in 8 seconds. That the equivalent of over 10 shots. Even half of that is still 5 shots. Two beers for the shot gun and bat spin. Typically a game of beer pong is 10 cups. If playing with a partner let just guess he drank half which is another 5. So that estimates of 12 drinks. Even if you are doing a conservative estimate and only go with 10 drinks for a 160lb male in an hour with a high tolerance is going to have BAC of over .2.

I guess you like to just make stuff up.

 

[mn78psu83]

I can chug a 16.9 oz bottle of water in 8 seconds. That the equivalent of over 10 shots. Even half of that is still 5 shots. Two beers for the shot gun and bat spin. Typically a game of beer pong is 10 cups. If playing with a partner let just guess he drank half which is another 5. So that estimates of 12 drinks. Even if you are doing a conservative estimate and only go with 10 drinks for a 160lb male in an hour with a high tolerance is going to have BAC of over .2.

You should talk to SPM. She might try to enter it into the record. Quite a piece of speculation.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Then prosecute them for hazing, or for providing alcohol to an underage person, rather than for manslaughter. .

Why? A crime that results in a death fit the definition of manslaughter. Why should they get special treatment? Why should they be above the law?

 

[PSU_Nut]

I guess you like to just make stuff up.

What am I making up? I am just saying it is possible to get very intoxicated in that short period of time.

 

[PSU_Nut]

You should talk to SPM. She might try to enter it into the record. Quite a piece of speculation.

And people saying he wasn't that drunk are not doing the same? I am just pointing out that it is possible to be very in what many peopled was not much.

 

[mn78psu83]

And people saying he wasn't that drunk are not doing the same?

They are also engaging in speculation. Your analysis, however, was somewhat remarkable and more noteworthy.

 

[Pennsy_Kraken]

Whether or not 100% of his alcohol consumption that night was part of the hazing ritual or at the party surrounding the hazing doesn't seem too relevant to me. Hazing is a crime. Furnishing alcohol to an underage minor is also a crime. It was still a crime to provide Piazza with alcohol regardless of whether he voluntarily drank it or whether it was part of the hazing.

There is significant doubt as to whether the hazing ritual was the proximate cause of his death. Proving that the hazing ritual involved drinking does not prove it was the cause of his death especially when the video tape demonstrates that two girls blocking his use of a doorway & staircase (something that all civilized parties know you are not supposed to do - i.e., block and obstruct access/egress to a staircase because you are so self-involved that you dangerously and blithely ignore other's rights to use the access/egress staircase via your MISUSE of the area to the other party's peril) was the cause of his seminal and most-serious fall.

Absurd to sit here and state the cause is hazing while completely ignoring what the videotape clearly demonstrates was the cause of his most serious and seminal fall.

 

[Pardlion]

What am I making up? I am just saying it is possible to get very intoxicated in that short period of time.

Try reading the Presentment and then base your scenario off of what it says.

 

[Raffycorn]

There is significant doubt as to whether the hazing ritual was the proximate cause of his death. Proving that the hazing ritual involved drinking does not prove it was the cause of his death especially when the video tape demonstrates that two girls blocking his use of a doorway & staircase (something that all civilized parties know you are not supposed to do - i.e., block and obstruct access/egress to a staircase because you are so self-involved that you dangerously and blithely ignore other's rights to use the access/egress staircase via your MISUSE of the area to the other party's peril) was the cause of his seminal and most-serious fall.

Absurd to sit here and State the cause is hazing while completely ignoring what the videotape clearly demonstrates was the cause of his most serious and seminal fall.

Two primary things: (1) I never stated that the cause of death was hazing - that's the primary thing that prosecutors will need to prove to convict on the involuntary manslaughter charge; and (2) the surveillance videotape, to my knowledge, doesn't show the top of the staircase nor does it show anyone blocking the doorway and staircase. The only place where I've seen the "two girls blocking the stairs" theory is when the frat brothers' defense attorneys asserted that it was true to the Philadelphia Inquirer in a story in May, shortly before they were arrested. But I haven't yet seen any evidence to actually support that assertion.

 

[mn78psu83]

Two primary things: (2) the surveillance videotape, to my knowledge, doesn't show the top of the staircase nor does it show anyone blocking the doorway and staircase. The only place where I've seen the "two girls blocking the stairs" theory is when the frat brothers' defense attorneys asserted that it was true to the Philadelphia Inquirer in a story in May, shortly before they were arrested. But I haven't yet seen any evidence to actually support that assertion.

All the more reason for the court to be sure that the unexpurgated version of the surveillance video in its entirety is shared by all parties.

 

[Raffycorn]

All the more reason for the court to be sure that the unexpurgated version of the surveillance video in its entirety is shared by all parties.

100% agreed.

 

[Pennsy_Kraken]

You should talk to SPM. She might try to enter it into the record. Quite a piece of speculation.

Well, PA's corrupt judicial system run by corrupt self-interested scumbag lawyers turned politicians & "public servants" who don't give a hoot about "truth & justice" admitted Mike McQueary's clear SPECULATIONS despite Mike McQueary himself testifying with his own mouth that it was speculation and conjecture on his part - not the "direct evidence" eyewitness testimony the State claimed it would be in their Indictments - specifically, the probable cause documentation in the Indictments in which the State INTENTIONALLY lied that they had an "eyewitness to the anal-rape of the child", which they absolutely did not.

Not only that, bit the State used the "33rd SWIGJ Presentment" as the Probable Cause documentation and Mike McQueary himself testified that The State INTENTIONALLY misrepresented what he actually testified to the 30th SWIGJ and INTENTIONALLY misrepresented his testimony publishing lies in their 33rd SWIGJ Presentment as MM never testified before that SWIGJ so it would be impossible for the 33rd SWIGJ to believe what was published in the Presentment as to the credibility of his "eyewitness testimony" that he saw and witnessed anal-rape when he actually testified to the diametric opposite to the 30th SWIGJ (he DID NOT see anal-rape), nor did he ever "testify" before the 33rd SWIGJ that they could find "credible" or not credible one-way or the other!

The corrupt PA Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement System - all rum by completely corrupt, hypocritical, immoral, exclusively self-interested, scumbag lawyers turned politicians and "public servants" within the judicial or LE system don't give a rat's @as about guaranteed and protected citizen due-process rights such as "admissability" court rules, so let's quit pretending like they do in any of these cases!

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

No matter what comes of this case... you can bet there will still be 'hazing', there will still be alcohol, there will still be recreational drug use and parties will still involve a mixture of frat bros, women and guys that want to be frat bros. Kids will still get drunk and high at PSU and they will continue to do things that are 'irresponsible'. All the convictions and regulations will not change that one iota.

 

[psulax3]

I can chug a 16.9 oz bottle of water in 8 seconds.

Awesome! I wish I was friends with you in college. That sounds fun.

 

[manatree]

Two primary things: (1) I never stated that the cause of death was hazing - that's the primary thing that prosecutors will need to prove to convict on the involuntary manslaughter charge;

I don't even think they need to prove hazing. If they can prove that they provided alcohol to a minor, and that alcohol played a role in the minor's death, they could get the involuntary manslaughter conviction.

 

[manatree]

No matter what comes of this case... you can bet there will still be 'hazing', there will still be alcohol, there will still be recreational drug use and parties will still involve a mixture of frat bros, women and guys that want to be frat bros. Kids will still get drunk and high at PSU and they will continue to do things that are 'irresponsible'. All the convictions and regulations will not change that one iota.

So what's your point? That all charges should be dropped because no matter what happens it will not solve the problem? With that logic, why prosecute any crime?

 

[LafayetteBear]

They have video of it. I think there is an excellent chance at that.

So you've seen all 8-12 hours of it and can give all of us an informed and definitive opinion of the legal conclusions to be drawn from that video? OK.

Your posts in this thread are of a quality similar to your posts concerning Paterno and Sandusky. LOL...

 

[lurkerlion]

I don't even think they need to prove hazing. If they can prove that they provided alcohol to a minor, and that alcohol played a role in the minor's death, they could get the involuntary manslaughter conviction.

You are probably correct. However, without hazing allegations there is not an international story or pages of pointless posts on message boards. It is what it is.

 

[getmyjive11]

So you've seen all 8-12 hours of it and can give all of us an informed and definitive opinion of the legal conclusions to be drawn from that video? OK.

Your posts in this thread are of a quality similar to your posts concerning Paterno and Sandusky. LOL...

And how did that turn out? Sometimes things are what they seem.

 

[PSU_Nut]

There is significant doubt as to whether the hazing ritual was the proximate cause of his death. Proving that the hazing ritual involved drinking does not prove it was the cause of his death especially when the video tape demonstrates that two girls blocking his use of a doorway & staircase (something that all civilized parties know you are not supposed to do - i.e., block and obstruct access/egress to a staircase because you are so self-involved that you dangerously and blithely ignore other's rights to use the access/egress staircase via your MISUSE of the area to the other party's peril) was the cause of his seminal and most-serious fall.

Absurd to sit here and state the cause is hazing while completely ignoring what the videotape clearly demonstrates was the cause of his most serious and seminal fall.

If he was not drunk do you believe he would have be able to navigate the girls on the stairs? A sober person likely could have successfully navigated around the girls.

 

[humpydudas19]

If he was not drunk do you believe he would have be able to navigate the girls on the stairs? A sober person likely could have successfully navigated around the girls.

We have a place for you in the Vidocq Society.

Not, idiot.

 

[acg116]

So you've seen all 8-12 hours of it and can give all of us an informed and definitive opinion of the legal conclusions to be drawn from that video? OK.

Your posts in this thread are of a quality similar to your posts concerning Paterno and Sandusky. LOL...

Not trying to flame here, but do you think seeing all 8-12 hours is necessary to render an opinion? If there's a few key moments that are captured that impugn he defendants, how many mitigating things are going to be seen in the tape? Now, granted no one here has seen any of the tape, so maybe those key moments don't exist but I disagree that you need to see the whole tape.

 

[The Song Remains the Same]

And how did that turn out? Sometimes things are what they seem.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Not trying to flame here, but do you think seeing all 8-12 hours is necessary to render an opinion? If there's a few key moments that are captured that impugn he defendants, how many mitigating things are going to be seen in the tape? Now, granted no one here has seen any of the tape, so maybe those key moments don't exist but I disagree that you need to see the whole tape.

Not sure you have to watch all 8-12 hours, but I think watching the 3 hour edit prepared by SPM is likely to tell an incomplete and one sided story.

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

So what's your point? That all charges should be dropped because no matter what happens it will not solve the problem? With that logic, why prosecute any crime?

My point is that you can suspend frats, attempt to regulate the process, expel kids, get the fed involved, pass laws.... and it will not change anything.

So go ahead, indict, try and convict every beta frat boy for this death. Ban them from campus. Make drinking illegal at parties. Enact laws to make sure this "never happens again". It will make everyone feel good but guess what? Nothing will change.

 

[acg116]

Not sure you have to watch all 8-12 hours, but I think watching the 3 hour edit prepared by SPM is likely to tell an incomplete and one sided story.

I hear you, but still not sure I'm there. If you saw a tape with someone robbing a bank, I don't really care what happens in the rest of the reel.

 

[BlueBand]

So you've seen all 8-12 hours of it and can give all of us an informed and definitive opinion of the legal conclusions to be drawn from that video? OK.

Your posts in this thread are of a quality similar to your posts concerning Paterno and Sandusky. LOL...

Have YOU seen all 8-12 hours of it?

 

[getmyjive11]

Not sure you have to watch all 8-12 hours, but I think watching the 3 hour edit prepared by SPM is likely to tell an incomplete and one sided story.

Hitting someone's abdomen so that it leaves a mark as the are defenseless... you don't think that qualifies?

 

[getmyjive11]

My point is that you can suspend frats, attempt to regulate the process, expel kids, get the fed involved, pass laws.... and it will not change anything.

So go ahead, indict, try and convict every beta frat boy for this death. Ban them from campus. Make drinking illegal at parties. Enact laws to make sure this "never happens again". It will make everyone feel good but guess what? Nothing will change.

Do you think that putting a murderer away for life stops all murders? Are you really going to say that this event won't make some people think twice about how they party at frats if those kids get convicted?

You are not making sense.

 

[PearlSUJam]

Do you think that putting a murderer away for life stops all murders? Are you really going to say that this event won't make some people think twice about how they party at frats if those kids get convicted?

You are not making sense.

We need to ban all alcohol in the United States. That'll fix it. It worked before!

I just want the story of why he was the only one that was so messed up and sloppy drunk. Was anyone else this drunk? Was he trying to be "Frank the Tank"?

 

[MercerLion]

We need to ban all alcohol in the United States. That'll fix it. It worked before!

I just want the story of why he was the only one that was so messed up and sloppy drunk. Was anyone else this drunk? Was he trying to be "Frank the Tank"?

I believe in the presentment it does mention another pledge that fell down some stairs. Additionally, the presentment states that in the prior pledge class that a pledge had to be taken to Urgent Care after falling and hitting his head and leaving him with a permanent scar. So yes, running the gauntlet has left other people highly inebriated .

 

[Vermilion]

Pearl, my guess is that it will come out at trial and significant

 

[PearlSUJam]

I believe in the presentment it does mention another pledge that fell down some stairs. Additionally, the presentment states that in the prior pledge class that a pledge had to be taken to Urgent Care after falling and hitting his head and leaving him with a permanent scar. So yes, running the gauntlet has left other people highly inebriated .

Sorry, I missed that in the presentment. I do remember seeing that two other members mentioned calling 911. The only reason they aren't talked about in the media craze is because none of the brothers pushed them away and told them to shut up like the guy being protected by the DA.

If I'm the defense, I want video of when the brothers held him down and poured vodka down his mouth.

 

[Pardlion]

I believe in the presentment it does mention another pledge that fell down some stairs. Additionally, the presentment states that in the prior pledge class that a pledge had to be taken to Urgent Care after falling and hitting his head and leaving him with a permanent scar. So yes, running the gauntlet has left other people highly inebriated .

WTF is up with these stairs? We had lots of stairs in my frat house, and many very drunk people. I don't remember a single stair-related injury. We did have banisters and handrails, though. Also, there was no texting back then, so chicks didn't obliviously hang out on the stairs.

 

[humpydudas19]

WTF is up with these stairs? We had lots of stairs in my frat house, and many very drunk people. I don't remember a single stair-related injury. We did have banisters and handrails, though. Also, there was no texting back then, so chicks didn't obliviously hang out on the stairs.

A guy who went to HS with me lived with 2 other drunks. He took 3 headers on the stairs and survived. The last time, the 4th, his buds heard him fall but it was too late when they checked him hours later. RIP Tom H. massive brain hemorrhage, died at UPMC.

 

[katchthis]

A guy who went to HS with me lived with 2 other drunks. He took 3 headers on the stairs and survived. The last time, the 4th, his buds heard him fall but it was too late when they checked him hours later. RIP Tom H. massive brain hemorrhage, died at UPMC.

43,000 people every year die from falling, way more than 32,000 from firearm related fatalities of which 20,000 are suicides. Amazing how much energy can be translated to the human body in a relatively short distance.

 

[katchthis]

PA law on hazing, seems like a low threshold as it is written, but here it is ....
https://www.bloomu.edu/documents/dawn/HazingLaw.pdf