Dranov on the stand

[KnightSlayer]

It's not hindsight at all. MM told them about the sexual sounds that night. He told them about Sandusky and a boy in a shower. He was visibly upset. That could see/hear all of that for themselves yet they decided to go tell a football coach about the incident instead of the police. Where the hell is the common sense in that? Why aren't you upset about that?

You keep saying he heard sexual sounds. He heard 3 slapping noises and his mind concluded it was sexuals sounds. That does not mean it was sexual sounds. That's why Dr Dranov asked him if he actually saw anything happening to which MM replied no. I know it's not easy but, try to put yourself in Dranov's shoes. So MM says he's outside the locker room and hears slapping noise and his mind says they sound like someone having sex. So what does MM do? He walks into the locker room. Would you just walk into a room where you thought someone was having sex? I know I wouldn't but, that's just me.

After he walks into the locker room, he peeks into a mirror trying to catch a glimpse of the two people having sex. We know he's a bit of a perv so that's understandable. Probably trying to check out some naked chick but instead of seeing that, he sees Jerry and a kid. Doesn't actually see them doing anything but that was what he was expecting so it freaks him out. Dranov is just trying to piece together what exactly MM is telling him and after asking questions comes to the conclusion that nothing MM is telling him warrants a call to the police or children and youth. Still thinks it's a bit weird that Jerry takes his 2nd Mile kids to the Lasch building so he suggests that Mike tell Joe about it. That is not an unreasonable conclusion to make based on what MM told him.

 

[royboy]

It's not meaningless, its an important piece to the puzzle. And it is not Dranov who should be determining is anything sexual occurred, it should be the police. I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong on this.

He's not dead wrong. He has looked at the evidence and has a different opinion than you do. As do many thoughtful people on this forum have a considered opinion that is different than yours.

Your insistence and repetition does not make you right.

 

[Diego Badman]

In trying to make some sense out this, it seems that everything comes back to "sexual sounds." I don't know if those sounds have ever been clearly defined. And, it appears that Mike kept coming back to that in his conversation with Dranov.

I'd offer this thought: I have no doubt that Mike heard these sounds when he came in the room, but I think Mike was expecting to see a man and a woman. His mind had already determined that there was sexual activity in that shower. He recoiled in fear when he saw Jerry and this boy. He never witnessed anything. Fina and Eschbach embellished his testimony to solidify Mike as the presumed Star Witness.

The fact--and this is confirmed--is that Mike was so upset was that he was convinced sexual activity was occurring. He did not expect to see WHO he saw there.

I feel bad for Mike in many ways. He was used and thrown away by The Commonwealth. He was a means to an end. He deserves our understanding and not our abuse. I don't know about these rumors of lewd pictures and gambling. I've seen no evidence. I know the gambling was discussed in an ESPN article, but it is ESPN, and I've learned not to trust what they say or write as it usually has an agenda.

And we can argue all day about who was a mandated reporter. The testimony--please don't assume perjured testimony--is that this was not an incident that met the standards of reporting to the Police. Everyone thinks that Mike should have run to the Police. But, I don't think he ever saw anything specific to report.

 

[getmyjive11]

You keep saying he heard sexual sounds. He heard 3 slapping noises and his mind concluded it was sexuals sounds. That does not mean it was sexual sounds. That's why Dr Dranov asked him if he actually saw anything happening to which MM replied no. I know it's not easy but, try to put yourself in Dranov's shoes. So MM says he's outside the locker room and hears slapping noise and his mind says they sound like someone having sex. So what does MM do? He walks into the locker room. Would you just walk into a room where you thought someone was having sex? I know I wouldn't but, that's just me.

After he walks into the locker room, he peeks into a mirror trying to catch a glimpse of the two people having sex. We know he's a bit of a perv so that's understandable. Probably trying to check out some naked chick but instead of seeing that, he sees Jerry and a kid. Doesn't actually see them doing anything but that was what he was expecting so it freaks him out. Dranov is just trying to piece together what exactly MM is telling him and after asking questions comes to the conclusion that nothing MM is telling him warrants a call to the police or children and youth. Still thinks it's a bit weird that Jerry takes his 2nd Mile kids to the Lasch building so he suggests that Mike tell Joe about it. That is not an unreasonable conclusion to make based on what MM told him.

Again, it's not his job to come up with a conclusion as to what happened. It should have been reported to police so that they could investigate. Hell, even just Sandusky and a boy in a shower late at night (alone) should have been enough. Say what you want, but that situation is far from normal and extremely suspicious. Let the police determine what happened.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

It's not meaningless, its an important piece to the puzzle. And it is not Dranov who should be determining is anything sexual occurred, it should be the police. I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong on this.

I am not "dead wrong" about the weight that is legally placed on CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE, that is stand-alone evidence at that! It has NO WEIGHT in a legal sense (and juries are to be instructed in this regard) when the conjectured conclusion of the circumstantial evidence (noise in this case) is JUST AS LIKELY an "innocent explanation" as an conclusion that would suggest guilt!!! Again, when this is the case, juries are instructed to IGNORE the testimony via the "Circumstantial Evidence Instruction"! IOW dingbat, Dr. Dranov was a TRAINED MANDATORY REPORTER and was familiar with the code and STANDARDS OF EVIDENCE - he provided MM ADVICE 100% consistent with the codes and STANDARDS OF EVIDENCE, which is what he was asked to do by the McQuearys!!! You're completely full of $hit that it is incumbent upon Dr. Dranov to find MM's ultra-weak Circumstantial Evidence either persuasive or a "reasonable basis" (i.e., "credible") to make a report - IOW rise to the level of a "Reportable Incident" - IT DID NOT in the opinion of Dr. Dranov which is exactly what he has said under oath, including the 30th SWIGJ apparently, multiple times at this point and 100% consistent with the advice he dispensed to MM blockhead!

 

[getmyjive11]

He's not dead wrong. He has looked at the evidence and has a different opinion than you do. As do many thoughtful people on this forum have a considered opinion that is different than yours.

Your insistence and repetition does not make you right.

That's fine, but it doesn't make me wrong either. And my assumption is that most people in this country would feel the way that I do.

 

[AvgUser]

I'm talking specifically about Dranov. How would he know about 1998?

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

Dranov - probably did not know about 1998. However, he stated yesterday that his conclusion after speaking to Mike was nothing criminal likely occurred that warranted a call to police.

I was forwarding the timeline a little to how Schultz and Curley reacted to the situation. Schutlz did know about 1998 and I think Curley did too (or at least aware that something ocurred). By the time Mike spoke with them, his frazzled nerves had settled. Neither JMcQ, DD or JoePa reacted with a "Holy Crap, there's a crime here, Batman". Hence, the 'reasonable men after some Q&A deduced themselves that no call needed to be made. They Spoke to Sandusky and said stop showering here with boys. That all seems very reasonable and logical.

 

[pandaczar12]

That's fine, but it doesn't make me wrong either. And my assumption is that most people in this country would feel the way that I do.

You know what happens when you assume.

Considering how ignorant "most people in this country" are about this topic, I would not want to align myself with them.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Again, it's not his job to come up with a conclusion as to what happened. It should have been reported to police so that they could investigate. Hell, even just Sandusky and a boy in a shower late at night (alone) should have been enough. Say what you want, but that situation is far from normal and extremely suspicious. Let the police determine what happened.

From what's been reported, it was not far from normal. Jerry apparently brought 2nd mile kids to the gym on several occasions under the guise of teaching them to workout. After working out for a couple of hours he would act like he's teaching them proper hygiene. He acts like he's filling a fatherly role. I don't know about you but, when I work out for an hour or two, I shower when I'm finished.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

It's not meaningless, its an important piece to the puzzle. And it is not Dranov who should be determining is anything sexual occurred, it should be the police. I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong on this.

I am not "dead wrong" about the weight that is legally placed on CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE, that is stand-alone evidence at that! It has NO WEIGHT in a legal sense (and juries are to be instructed in this regard) when the conjectured conclusion of the circumstantial evidence (noise in this case) is JUST AS LIKELY an "innocent explanation" as an conclusion that would suggest guilt!!! Again, when this is the case, juries are instructed to IGNORE the testimony via the "Circumstantial Evidence Instruction"! IOW dingbat, Dr. Dranov was a TRAINED MANDATORY REPORTER and was familiar with the code and STANDARDS OF EVIDENCE - he provided MM ADVICE 100% consistent with the codes and STANDARDS OF EVIDENCE, which is what he was asked to do by the McQuearys!!! You're completely full of $hit that it is incumbent upon Dr. Dranov to find MM's ultra-weak Circumstantial Evidence either persuasive or a "reasonable basis" (i.e., "credible") to make a report - IOW rise to the level of a "Reportable Incident" - IT DID NOT in the opinion of Dr. Dranov which is exactly what he has said under oath, including the 30th SWIGJ apparently, multiple times at this point and 100% consistent with the advice he dispensed to MM blockhead!

BTW, the other OBVIOUS POINT you miss in regards to all this is the fact that Dr. Dranov was merely dispensing ADVICE at the McQuearys' request - Dr. Dranov was not the actual WITNESS. So if MM was so GD convinced that what he heard was sex and sex was taking place in the shower - just absolutely convinced of it - there was NOTHING STOPPING HIM FROM CALLING THE POLICE (or 911 or going to the police department physically, etc....). There was NO REQUIREMENT that MM accept Dr. Dranov's ADVICE, especially if he was as GD convinced of criminal sexual assault as you claim he was - i.e., as sure as the sun coming up in the morning!!! So if MM was this "convinced" that he just witnessed CSA, let alone "anal rape", why on earth did he seek ADVICE from Dr. Dranov in the first place as to what he should do??? Show me all these 28 year old men that don't know what do when they witness a 68 year old man anally raping a 10 year old boy??? (you call the police or 911 and stay at the scene until the boy is in safe custody - that's what you do!!!!). So please do provide all your "simple" bull$hit, spinning explanations as to why he would be seeking "Advice" to such a simple question in the first place and even then, if he was convinced, why would he not ignore the advice and call the police if he was so utterly GD convinced, and convincing, as you claim?????

 

[Lisa1994]

In trying to make some sense out this, it seems that everything comes back to "sexual sounds." I don't know if those sounds have ever been clearly defined. And, it appears that Mike kept coming back to that in his conversation with Dranov.

I'd offer this thought: I have no doubt that Mike heard these sounds when he came in the room, but I think Mike was expecting to see a man and a woman. His mind had already determined that there was sexual activity in that shower. He recoiled in fear when he saw Jerry and this boy. He never witnessed anything. Fina and Eschbach embellished his testimony to solidify Mike as the presumed Star Witness.

The fact--and this is confirmed--is that Mike was so upset was that he was convinced sexual activity was occurring. He did not expect to see WHO he saw there.

I feel bad for Mike in many ways. He was used and thrown away by The Commonwealth. He was a means to an end. He deserves our understanding and not our abuse. I don't know about these rumors of lewd pictures and gambling. I've seen no evidence. I know the gambling was discussed in an ESPN article, but it is ESPN, and I've learned not to trust what they say or write as it usually has an agenda.

And we can argue all day about who was a mandated reporter. The testimony--please don't assume perjured testimony--is that this was not an incident that met the standards of reporting to the Police. Everyone thinks that Mike should have run to the Police. But, I don't think he ever saw anything specific to report.

I agree. I vacillate with regards to McQ because he wants us to believe what he saw was so obviously sexual abuse and urgent, yet he doesn't maintain that urgency to make sure the situation is reported somehow, someway. He's really the only one who could have made the call. Not PSU's HR chain.

On the other hand, if we assume the story of everyone else, that McQ wasn't so sure what he saw, then I have a lot of sympathy for him. No one wants to talk about it, but you want to be positive before you level a CSA accusation. I think there were many factors that made everyone not so sure. The biggest being JS made people expect that he was a hero of children.

 

[lionlurker]

No, there won't. The law protects people who report suspected child abuse.

Sure. Nobody is ever going to get sued for falsely accusing someone of child abuse. Uh-huh.

 

[Psychedelic_MackDaddy]

No human being in their right mind with any kind of moral values, would believe that you shouldn't call the cops when you find a naked middle aged man in a shower with a child, naked, at 10pm at night.

Not a single soul.

Not if you already KNOW the "nice-guy predator". That's the point.

He wasn't in a holiday inn showering with the kid. He was in a large room with multiple shower heads that many people use at once on a daily basis.

Sure. If I never met the guy and saw him at 10pm, It would be a RED FLAG. But, JS did this sh!t for decades.

 

[getmyjive11]

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

Dranov - probably did not know about 1998. However, he stated yesterday that his conclusion after speaking to Mike was nothing criminal likely occurred that warranted a call to police.

I was forwarding the timeline a little to how Schultz and Curley reacted to the situation. Schutlz did know about 1998 and I think Curley did too (or at least aware that something ocurred). By the time Mike spoke with them, his frazzled nerves had settled. Neither JMcQ, DD or JoePa reacted with a "Holy Crap, there's a crime here, Batman". Hence, the 'reasonable men after some Q&A deduced themselves that no call needed to be made. They Spoke to Sandusky and said stop showering here with boys. That all seems very reasonable and logical.

Which is why I am saying that Dranov failed. You have a witness that is upset and can't even talk about what he saw because it bothers him so much and you don't think that the police should take a look at it? His judgement on the matter sucks.

 

[Psychedelic_MackDaddy]

Did Freeh's crack all-star team of investigators talk to the good doctor, one wonders?

Freeh would've needed additional assistants for that costing an additional 2 million

 

[joeparules]

...Ok, based on this I just want answers to the following questions:
Why were C/S/S charged?
Why was Paterno's reputation and legacy shredded?
Why have the last 5 years happened?

The short answer to your questions:
Tom Corbett
Tom Corbett
Tom Corbett

Let me fix this for you:
Tom Corbett
John Surma
PSU BOTs

 

[getmyjive11]

Sure. Nobody is ever going to get sued for falsely accusing someone of child abuse. Uh-huh.

They won't. If they had a reasonable cause for filing the report, they would be fine. And that would have been the case here.

 

[lionlurker]

Your mind must be an interesting place.

 

[getmyjive11]

From what's been reported, it was not far from normal. Jerry apparently brought 2nd mile kids to the gym on several occasions under the guise of teaching them to workout. After working out for a couple of hours he would act like he's teaching them proper hygiene. He acts like he's filling a fatherly role. I don't know about you but, when I work out for an hour or two, I shower when I'm finished.

Do you shower with an unrelated kid, late at night when no one else is in the building? Do you think that is not suspicious behavior? My God....

 

[royboy]

Which is why I am saying that Dranov failed. You have a witness that is upset and can't even talk about what he saw because it bothers him so much and you don't think that the police should take a look at it? His judgement on the matter sucks.

That would properly be expressed, "In my opinion, his judgment on that matter sucked."

You are having a hard time distinguishing between
1. fact and opinion
2. now and then

Take a break.

 

[getmyjive11]

You know what happens when you assume.

Considering how ignorant "most people in this country" are about this topic, I would not want to align myself with them.

The premise is that these people would be presented with the information the same way Dranov was and they would then make a conclusion. Their knowledge of the case is irrelevant in that context.

 

[getmyjive11]

That would properly be expressed, "In my opinion, his judgment on that matter sucked."

You are having a hard time distinguishing between
1. fact and opinion
2. now and then

Take a break.

The facts are that MM saw Sandusky and a boy showering together late at night (all alone). He heard what he presumed to be sexual sounds. Based on those facts, my opinion (and many others) is that the event should have been reported to police to allow them to investigate.

 

[21Guns]

Not if you already KNOW the "nice-guy predator". That's the point.

He wasn't in a holiday inn showering with the kid. He was in a large room with multiple shower heads that many people use at once on a daily basis.

Sure. If I never met the guy and saw him at 10pm, It would be a RED FLAG. But, JS did this sh!t for decades.

Which makes it even more insane. "Oh, that's just good ole Ger, showering up naked again with little children...". Please man, don't tell me everyone was cool with that.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Do you shower with an unrelated kid, late at night when no one else is in the building? Do you think that is not suspicious behavior? My God....

Do you realize that Sandusky literally had double-digit children which he had LEGAL CUSTODY RIGHTS TO via both State-Regulated Adoption and Foster-Parenting programs, all of whom were also participants in TSM??? How in the hell would anyone at PSU know the LEGAL NATURE of his relationship with each and every TSM kid given these FACTS genius??? According to you, Dr. Dranov is supposed to own a crystal ball given him omnipotent power similar to God - not just dispense "Reasonable Advice" based on his LEARNED-OPINION! Pretty clear you have an agenda, because you're are one of the most UNREASONABLE POS HYPOCRITES going!

 

[Psychedelic_MackDaddy]

Which makes it even more insane. "Oh, that's just good ole Ger, showering up naked again with little children...". Please man, don't tell me everyone was cool with that.

Tell that to Jim Clemente, then. Why aren't MORE pedophiles caught, then, Professor Brainiac?

 

[royboy]

The facts are that MM saw Sandusky and a boy showering together late at night (all alone). He heard what he presumed to be sexual sounds. Based on those facts, my opinion (and many others) is that the event should have been reported to police to allow them to investigate.

Even with your version, the burden for reporting to the police falls primarily on the only witness, MM. He did not do that, and his versions of what he saw did not convince others that they urgently needed to report it to the police. And we know that MM did speak to Joe, and Joe did forward the issue through his chain of command.

So, fine if you take it from there, but there's no changing what happened back in 2001.

 

[21Guns]

Tell that to Jim Clemente, then. Why aren't MORE pedophiles caught, then, Professor Brainiac?

This one would have been caught a hell of a lot sooner had the guy just done what 99.9 percent of the other human race would have done. Brainiac.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Which makes it even more insane. "Oh, that's just good ole Ger, showering up naked again with little children...". Please man, don't tell me everyone was cool with that.

Really? Is that why the State of Pennsylvania provided LEGAL CUSTODY of double-digit children (all participants in TSM) via State-Regulated Adoption and Foster-Parenting Programs? Seriously? LMFAO! The State of Pennsylvania had no problem giving 'Ole Ger LEGAL CUSTODY to these kids to take them wherever he damn well pleased (including Hotels, gyms, etc....) by himself if he wanted to, but you think PSU administrators are supposed to know the exact nature of Sandusky's relationship with every single TSM child and even the ones he is an Adoptive or Foster-Parenting FATHER to, the PSU employees are supposed to call the police on him every time they see him at the facility with them???? Okay, whatever you dip$hit!!!

 

[Langmuir]

This one would have been caught a hell of a lot sooner had the guy just done what 99.9 percent of the other human race would have done. Brainiac.

You are delusional if you think it would have turned out any differently than 1998. It might have taken some current heat from PSU, but it would not have stopped Sandusky.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Do you shower with an unrelated kid, late at night when no one else is in the building? Do you think that is not suspicious behavior? My God....

How would anyone reasonably be expected to know the exact nature of JS's legal relationship with any TSM kid given that he had LEGAL CUSTODY RIGHTS to well into double-digit children over his time at PSU via both State-Run and State-Administered Adoption and Foster-Parenting Programs???? Can't wait for this agenda-based, simple, "spinning", obfuscating response!

 

[getmyjive11]

Even with your version, the burden for reporting to the police falls primarily on the only witness, MM. He did not do that, and his versions of what he saw did not convince others that they urgently needed to report it to the police. And we know that MM did speak to Joe, and Joe did forward the issue through his chain of command.

So, fine if you take it from there, but there's no changing what happened back in 2001.

That's fine. I will continue to think that it was extremely poor advice by Dranov.

 

[getmyjive11]

How would anyone reasonably be expected to know the exact nature of JS's legal relationship with any TSM kid given that he had LEGAL CUSTODY RIGHTS to well into double-digit children over his time at PSU via both State-Run and State-Administered Adoption and Foster-Parenting Programs???? Can't wait for this agenda-based, simple, "spinning", obfuscating response!

What do you think my agenda is?

 

[pandaczar12]

Do you shower with an unrelated kid, late at night when no one else is in the building? Do you think that is not suspicious behavior? My God....

One could argue that JS had no related kids, since they were all adopted. How would MM have known if the kid was one of his adopted kids or not?

Also, wasn't it at like 9 PM? I realize it sounds worse when you try to sell it that way, but that's not really "late at night".

 

[KnightSlayer]

Do you shower with an unrelated kid, late at night when no one else is in the building? Do you think that is not suspicious behavior? My God....

Are you stupid? I don't have a constant stream of adopted children and foster children under my direct care. Would you consider it suspicious behavior if I brought my son to the gym for a workout and then showered in the same communal shower with him after the workout? I'd say you're the one with a problem. You sound like one of those guys who think naked pictures of babies are somehow sexual. You're really starting to creep me out.

 

[royboy]

That's fine. I will continue to think that it was extremely poor advice by Dranov.

So what?

You've obsessed about this, but it doesn't change what happened.

It's now 2016; the current issues are the trials of C/S/S, Paterno vs NCAA, and the public perception of Penn State.

 

[Connorpozlee]

That's fine, but it doesn't make me wrong either. And my assumption is that most people in this country would feel the way that I do.

The thing about this is that you are probably right about your assumption. The other part of it is that my assumption is that most people would probably handle it the same way Dranov did.

 

[getmyjive11]

One could argue that JS had no related kids, since they were all adopted. How would MM have known if the kid was one of his adopted kids or not?

Also, wasn't it at like 9 PM? I realize it sounds worse when you try to sell it that way, but that's not really "late at night".

9 PM to a 10 year old is definitely late at night. Who the hell works out with a 10 year old that late?

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

One could argue that JS had no related kids, since they were all adopted. How would MM have known if the kid was one of his adopted kids or not?

Also, wasn't it at like 9 PM? I realize it sounds worse when you try to sell it that way, but that's not really "late at night".

Especially when it is rumored that JS was traveling all-day to a TSM Event of some kind out of town with the the child he claims was in the shower with him AND that they went to Lasch Building upon returning to SC in the early evening for a quick "Friends & Fitness Workout" which would explain the hour....

 

[getmyjive11]

The thing about this is that you are probably right about your assumption. The other part of it is that my assumption is that most people would probably handle it the same way Dranov did.

Perhaps. I agree that many people would probably kick the can down the road. Doesn't make it right.

 

[getmyjive11]

So what?

You've obsessed about this, but it doesn't change what happened.

It's now 2016; the current issues are the trials of C/S/S, Paterno vs NCAA, and the public perception of Penn State.

I'm "obsessed" by this because it angers me. It pisses me off to no end.

 

[KnightSlayer]

9 PM to a 10 year old is definitely late at night. Who the hell works out with a 10 year old that late?

If you start a 7:00pm and end at 9:00pm, that is not unusual.