Historical discussions

[mcpat]

InterMat Rewind: Major Changes

Climb into the Wayback Machine and take a trip back in time… back to a college wrestling event in the 1920s or 30s. The sport you know and love will have some new wrinkles in its old-school form. Sitting in the stands, you'd probably find yourself blurting out immediate reactions such as, "Why ...

intermatwrestle.com

College wrestling bouts for the 1966-67 season dropped from nine to eight minutes.
Today's seven-minute matches debuted in 1982'.
In 1911, collegiate wrestling rules allowed the referee to determine a win in the absence of a fall after 15 minutes.

Bunch of wussies today

 

[El-Jefe]

InterMat Rewind: Major Changes

Climb into the Wayback Machine and take a trip back in time… back to a college wrestling event in the 1920s or 30s. The sport you know and love will have some new wrinkles in its old-school form. Sitting in the stands, you'd probably find yourself blurting out immediate reactions such as, "Why ...

intermatwrestle.com

College wrestling bouts for the 1966-67 season dropped from nine to eight minutes.
Today's seven-minute matches debuted in 1982'.
In 1911, collegiate wrestling rules allowed the referee to determine a win in the absence of a fall after 15 minutes.

The rules had to change. No ref could last thru 15 minutes of Lewan.

 

[Sullivan]

Look at this amazing list I pulled from Penn State Wrestling Club:

Career Win % Leaders

​

#	Name	Seasons	Record	Career Win %
1​	Josh Barr​	2024-2025​	25-0-0​	100.0%​
2​	Ed Ruth​	2011-2014​	136-3-0​	97.8%​
3​	David Taylor​	2011-2014​	134-3-0​	97.8%​
4​	Zain Retherford​	2014-2018​	126-3-0​	97.7%​
5​	Bo Nickal​	2016-2019​	120-3-0​	97.6%​
6​	Jason Nolf​	2016-2019​	117-3-0​	97.5%​
6​	Mitchell Mesenbrink​	2024-2025​	39-1-0​	97.5%​
8​	Aaron Brooks​	2020-2024​	89-3-0​	96.7%​
9​	Andy Matter​	1970-1972​	58-2-0​	96.7%​
10​	Carter Starocci​	2021-2025​	90-4-0​	95.7%​
11​	Levi Haines​	2023-2025​	61-3-0​	95.3%​
12​	Mark Hall​	2017-2020​	116-6-0​	95.1%​
13​	Anthony Cassar​	2018-2020​	49-3-0​	94.2%​
14​	Dick Lemyre​	1952-1954​	40-3-0​	93.0%​
15​	Jack Light​	1935-1937​	25-1-1​	92.6%​
16​	Jim Martin​	1986-1989​	155-9-4​	92.3%​
17​	John Johnston​	1956-1958​	43-4-0​	91.5%​
18​	Roman Bravo-Young​	2019-2023​	101-10-0​	91.0%​
19​	Andrew Long​	2011-2011​	20-2-0​	90.9%​
19​	Cary Kolat​	1993-1994​	60-6-0​	90.9%​
21​	Vincenzo Joseph​	2017-2020​	89-9-0​	90.8%​
22​	JaMarr Billman​	1998-1999​	56-6-0​	90.3%​
23​	Nick Lee​	2018-2021​	119-13-0​	90.2%​
24​	Jim Maurey​	1948-1950​	18-2-0​	90.0%​
24​	F.W. Kaiser​	1925-1927​	18-2-0​	90.0%​

Any idea of what the record is at Penn State for the most wins without a loss, to start a career?

 

[Cowbell Man]

Any idea of what the record is at Penn State for the most wins without a loss, to start a career

38? David Taylor RS Freshman campaign?

 

[El-Jefe]

38? David Taylor RS Freshman campaign?

Has to be. Only other freshmen to go undefeated in the regular season were Zain and Jason.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Has to be. Only other freshmen to go undefeated in the regular season were Zain and Jason.

That’s a year and a half of wrestling now.

 

[El-Jefe]

That’s a year and a half of wrestling now.

Does that mean Rutgers guys now aren't elite until they qualify for a 3rd B10 Tournament?

 

[jtothemfp]

Back in the day:

Bouts are 10 minutes in length, with 2 three-minute extra (overtime) periods if no winner is determined in regulation. Both extra periods shall start in the “referee’s position”.

If a takedown occurs in the first 2 minutes of the bout, it shall become a continuous 10-minute bout.

If no takedown or fall occurs in the first 2 minutes, the remaining 8 minutes are divided into two 4-minute periods, with each wrestler starting on top in one period.

If a wrestler scores a fall in the first 4-minute period, this terminates only the first 4-minute period. The other wrestler has the opportunity to score a fall in a faster time in the second 4-minute period.

Consolation bouts consist of three 2-minute periods. A referee can call for extra periods if he is unable to declare a winner in regulation.

Any part of both shoulders held in contact with the mat for an appreciable length of time (i.e., 3 seconds) constitutes a fall.

If no fall has resulted after the end of the regular period of wrestling, the referee shall award the bout to the wrestler who shows greater wrestling ability and aggressiveness, provided the wrestler has a riding time-advantage of at least one-minute.

The one-minute riding time advantage is not necessary to declare a winner in extra periods or consolation bouts.

Good stuff; I see you pulled that from https://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/NCAA Bout Scoring.pdf, which is an awesome resource & one I used a ton in the mid aught-teens as I was learning more & more about the scoring.

To the earlier point about "presentism" and the difficulty comparing results from different eras, frequent rules changes also made things difficult. It was frustrating enough that I was inspired to transcribe the content of that Jay Hammond .pdf into this Gsheet, for more handy referencing:

I hope it might help someone else!

 

[wrestleknownothing]

Good stuff; I see you pulled that from https://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/NCAA Bout Scoring.pdf, which is an awesome resource & one I used a ton in the mid aught-teens as I was learning more & more about the scoring.

To the earlier point about "presentism" and the difficulty comparing results from different eras, frequent rules changes also made things difficult. It was frustrating enough that I was inspired to transcribe the content of that Jay Hammond .pdf into this Gsheet, for more handy referencing:

I hope it might help someone else!

That is great. Thanks.

I used Jay Hommond's original doc and I have added to it to fill in some blanks and to extend it to present. What a great resource.

The other thing I have found useful is the NWHOF has almost all of the annual collegiate wrestling guides from 1928 to 1982 posted on their website. Those contain the rulebooks as well as write ups of the NCAA tournament and conference tournaments. Some entertaining stuff.

National Wrestling Hall of Fame

The National Wrestling Hall Of Fame

nwhof.org

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I'm curious, what is the Bonus Match Termination shown in use from 1995-1997? Also, the TF w/out back points shows as only one point in the 2001 to present category. Is this an older chart made before the rule change eliminating the back points requirement during a TF victory? TIA!

 

[wrestleknownothing]

I'm curious, what is the Bonus Match Termination shown in use from 1995-1997? Also, the TF w/out back points shows as only one point in the 2001 to present category. Is this an older chart made before the rule change eliminating the back points requirement during a TF victory? TIA!

In 1995 they eliminated the tech fall and replaced it with match termination (leading by 15) worth 1 point in a tournament (TF was previously 0.75 points).

Then in 1997 they restored the TF, made it worth 1.5, but required back points. Leading by 15 without back points was the new MT, and it was worth 1 point.

Then in 2016 they made all TF worth 1.5.

The link @jtothemfp posted above has all that detail and then some.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

In 1995 they eliminated the tech fall and replaced it with match termination (leading by 15) worth 1 point in a tournament (TF was previously 0.75 points).

Then in 1997 they restored the TF, made it worth 1.5, but required back points. Leading by 15 without back points was the new MT, and it was worth 1 point.

Then in 2016 they made all TF worth 1.5.

The link @jtothemfp posted above has all that detail and then some.

Much appreciated.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Any idea of what the record is at Penn State for the most wins without a loss, to start a career?

Barr ;-) what too soon?

 

[Ian]

Great list! 11 of the top 12, and 15 of the top 24 coached by Cael. Pretty good for a guy that supposedly can't coach!

Still pissed off that Vincenzo and Hall missed out on their final championship run in 2020… A Brooks, too, for that matter.

 

[mcpat]

Still pissed off that Vincenzo and Hall missed out on their final championship run in 2020… A Brooks, too, for that matter.

I still think we win it that year despite the 4th place showing at B1Gs. Championships from NLee, Hall, Cenzo and Brooks. Top three from RBY. AA from Shakur. Just one stumble from Iowa and those finishes take it.

 

[Nitlion1986]

I still think we win it that year despite the 4th place showing at B1Gs. Championships from NLee, Hall, Cenzo and Brooks. Top three from RBY. AA from Shakur. Just one stumble from Iowa and those finishes take it.

Of course we win it that year, but you know there are programs out there that outperform everybody else every year. So, the Hawks certainly would have had 4 or 5 champs, a couple more runner-ups and probably at least 12 maybe 13 All-Americans.

 

[Sleepylion]

I still think we win it that year despite the 4th place showing at B1Gs. Championships from NLee, Hall, Cenzo and Brooks. Top three from RBY. AA from Shakur. Just one stumble from Iowa and those finishes take it.

And that hardly ever happens.

 

[jtothemfp]

That is great. Thanks.

I used Jay Hommond's original doc and I have added to it to fill in some blanks and to extend it to present. What a great resource.

The other thing I have found useful is the NWHOF has almost all of the annual collegiate wrestling guides from 1928 to 1982 posted on their website. Those contain the rulebooks as well as write ups of the NCAA tournament and conference tournaments. Some entertaining stuff.

National Wrestling Hall of Fame

The National Wrestling Hall Of Fame

nwhof.org

Excellent resource I'd never used before; thank you!

 

[Ian]

I still think we win it that year despite the 4th place showing at B1Gs. Championships from NLee, Hall, Cenzo and Brooks. Top three from RBY. AA from Shakur. Just one stumble from Iowa and those finishes take it.

But it would have impacted several years after. For instance, Brooks would have not competed in 2024. RBY would have been gone after 2022.

 

[District four]

And that hardly ever happens.

Who

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I am so glad the extra COVID year group will be gone after this season.

COVID-19 led to extra college eligibility. Those 5th-year players are set for their last runs

Fifth-year players start this year in the spotlight, headlined by RJ Davis with the ninth-ranked Tar Heels.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Nitlion1986]

But it would have impacted several years after. For instance, Brooks would have not competed in 2024. RBY would have been gone after 2022.

No. The guys impacted in 2020 didn't get a year. The guys who were in danger of being impacted got the year.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

DT did have the fanfare but Ed was more successful in college. He will always be one of my kids fav's due to timing. Mine is still Nolf

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

 

[Pennstate1985]

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

I hated Boone with the hatred of the hottest sun in the universe.

Who is Boone? You mean Brooks?

 

[El-Jefe]

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

Who was Jason's 4th loss? Martinez 2x, Van Brill default, ???

 

[Ian]

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

Carter is the GOAT if he gets #5…

 

[Pennstate1985]

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

Then there is the category of most fun to watch all timers. Q and Bo top that list. Nolf maybe with his, "cat playing with his food" matches. MM is getting there. Who else rounds out the top 4.

 

[mcpat]

It's useful to remember that Nolf:

Has four losses, not three like Taylor, but one was due to sloppy officiating that allowed him to be injured.
Has ten more pins than Taylor (60-50)
Has three NC's, not 2.
Was never himself, pinned.

Had he won a 4th NC, there'd be no question he'd have been the best Lion. Similar can be said for Nickal.

In a hypothetical draft of all-timers:

In no order, I'm picking Nolf, Nickal and Boone before Taylor. If Carter gets No. 5, he's the fourth before Taylor.

It would be a toss-up between Taylor and Zain.

I give up. Who is Boone?

 

[Pennstate1985]

I give up. Who is Boone?

If you don't know that, you're not a real fan. Pfft

 

[Ja1339]

110%

Unsure of most backgrounds of fans here, but I am a Penn State alum, and I take huge pride in watching all the student athletes over the years move on from PSU and have success in whichever endeavors they choose.

It builds and adds to the PSU Legacy to watch our own succeed over the years.

I am proud that Poz just got elected to the College football HOF, proud Kerry Collins had a 15+ yr NFL career, proud that Saquon had arguably the best season ever for a RB, proud that Todd Blackledge is one of the most respected football color commentary guys, proud that James Franklin has about 6 former coordinators as D-1 head coaches, proud that so many PSU letterman have returned to be position coaches / analysts under Franklin (Greg Gattuso being the most recent), proud that Aaron Maybin has given so much back to the youth of Baltimore, proud that Will Fries & Chris Godwin just signed monster NFL contracts, and I could write 100 other examples but I hope you see my point.

None of these guys had perfect careers or are perfect people, but they're still Penn Staters.

These types of fans who say "OH I CANT ROOT FOR SAQUON BECAUSE HE IS WITH THE GIANTS / EAGLES" or "I HATE MICAH NOW SINCE HE IS ON THE COWBOYS HE TALKS TOO MUCH !!" are short sighted and don't see the full picture.

It's the same exact way for the wrestling program under Cael.
I want to see all of his athletes succeed in whatever fields they choose.

To me, it is small minded and petty to wish Cael's graduates any ill-will.
Did DT act petty at times? Most likely, sure ...
... but Kerry Collins had issues w/ the bottle, Aaron Maybon was an NFL bust, but raise your hand if you've been under perfect behavior for 10+ years.

I hope DT becomes the 2nd best college wrestling coach, then Nolf becomes the 2nd or 3rd best college coach after winning BJJ titles, and hopes Nickal wins a UFC belt, hope Mark Hall & Jake Varner & Nick Lee & Zain Train & Cenzo someday all become NCAA head coaches as well.

We want Cael to have an overwhelming college wrestling coaching tree in 10+ years. And I want them to all crush it.

It's a free country - you can carry your DT grudges, but what I wrote is how I feel about the bigger picture.

Love your sentiment and agree with it completely….right up to the part about rooting for Micah. As a die hard Philly sports fan, i always rooted for Saquon with the Giants (when not playing the Birds). But rooting for Micah and Cowboys is a bridge too far for me. So I’m 98% with you 😊

 

[BigFella235]

Micah and Carter remind me a lot of each other. Talented, brash and loyal to a fault. Each have had their moments of unequaled glory and unequaled foot-in-mouth syndrome (see: Micah’s recent exchange with now ex-teammate Demarcus Lawrence and Carter’s comments about not chasing a “ NIL bag” only to receive a fat NIL deal).

A complete aside: Micah is a massive human being. I sat 4 rows behind him at OTT’s and got his autograph as he was leaving with Carter, David Carr, Chop Robinson, and Kerk. Mind you, I’m 6’4” 280-290lbs and he made me feel small.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

I hated Boone with the hatred of the hottest sun in the universe.

Who is Boone? You mean Brooks?

Brooks, man it's bad if you confuse baseball and wrestling.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Micah and Carter remind me a lot of each other. Talented, brash and loyal to a fault. Each have had their moments of unequaled glory and unequaled foot-in-mouth syndrome (see: Micah’s recent exchange with now ex-teammate Demarcus Lawrence and Carter’s comments about not chasing a “ NIL bag” only to receive a fat NIL deal).

A complete aside: Micah is a massive human being. I sat 4 rows behind him at OTT’s and got his autograph as he was leaving with Carter, David Carr, Chop Robinson, and Kerk. Mind you, I’m 6’4” 280-290lbs and he made me feel small.

So 235 is wishful thinking for you as well?

 

[Shifty15]

Who was Jason's 4th loss? Martinez 2x, Van Brill default, ???

Definitely wasn’t Todrank!

 

[BigFella235]

So 235 is wishful thinking for you as well?

Once upon a time it was a challenge to stay heavy enough to stay around 235. Now I wish I was that light lol

 

[donboy6499]

Definitely wasn’t Todrank!

Pantaleo MFF in 2018.

 

[creamery freak]

Brooks, man it's bad if you confuse baseball and wrestling.

Brooks Robinson, one of the all time Orioles greats!😉

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Brooks Robinson, one of the all time Orioles greats!😉

Look I can screw things up enough by myself saying Aaron Boone when I meant Brooks. No need to add other vector on my potential error space.

Normally I accept help gratitously, but this I do not need.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Definitely wasn’t Todrank!

Google said 133-4, but I think that was including non PSU matches. If he only had two losses outside Van Brill, even more, I would say better than Taylor.

 

[creamery freak]

Google said 133-4, but I think that was including non PSU matches. If he only had two losses outside Van Brill, even more, I would say better than Taylor.

Jason had a forfeit at B10's in 2018, if I'm remembering right.