HR - thoughts on kerk

[regularfan]

Must finish in the at or above the auto-qualifier number. So if the Big Ten gets 5 at 285, he must finish top-5 ... based on everything we know right now, meaning less than 4 bouts heading into the B1G Tournament AND he's healthy enough by tournament time.

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

That statement you put in quotes from the NCAA has had me intrigued. In year's past Roman Bravo-Young for example could earn a spot for Big 10 based on his Coaches rank/RPI/win %. They are using historical data so I don't understand how they are "confirming" participation in the tournament this year if the bids aren't assigned to an individual as they have in year's past.

If they are saying that you cannot get a pre-allocated spot (2nd place - whatever the max is) with less than four matches entering the Big 10 Tournament then Kerkvliet has to beat Steveson and Parris just to make nationals.

If they are counting Big 10 Tournament matches into that 4, it presents an interesting situation in New Jersey. What if Suriano shows up with no matches at Big 10 Tournament and gets the #2 seed. He would either have to win quarters, semis and Lee in the finals or no NCAA tournament. Or he could tank his first round and build up his match count in the wrestlebacks where I would assume he gets whatever place he needs.

Sorry I don't mean to hijack this threat so hopefully I am not.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

Must finish in the at or above the auto-qualifier number. So if the Big Ten gets 5 at 285, he must finish top-5 ... based on everything we know right now, meaning less than 4 bouts heading into the B1G Tournament AND he's healthy enough by tournament time.

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

I wonder if the B10 loses an AQ at heavy if Nevills earns one, but Kerk wrestles at B10s

 

[west2east]

I never post but I thought I would eliminate any rumors flying around. Greg Jr. Is rehabbing and there is a strong possibility that timing will align with him making big tens. We will see what happens but he is in good spirits and focused on what is needed to accomplish his goals.

Greg Sr.

Thanks.It was discussed on Willie show today as well.He said they hope to have him back by big 10.I hope so he's an amazing talent

 

[El-Jefe]

I wonder if the B10 loses an AQ at heavy if Nevills earns one, but Kerk wrestles at B10s

Yes, B10 would lose an AQ spot in that scenario.

Exception: with all of the weirdness this year, if Kerk somehow returns in time to get 4 matches, then conceivably he too could earn an AQ for B10. In which case, B10 gets an AQ spot regardless of which HWT we send.

Based on his dad's post, I don't expect him to get 4 matches -- just noting the ramifications. It's something I doubt the NCAA Wrestling Committee has contemplated yet.

 

[NoVa Lion]

That statement you put in quotes from the NCAA has had me intrigued. In year's past Roman Bravo-Young for example could earn a spot for Big 10 based on his Coaches rank/RPI/win %. They are using historical data so I don't understand how they are "confirming" participation in the tournament this year if the bids aren't assigned to an individual as they have in year's past.

If they are saying that you cannot get a pre-allocated spot (2nd place - whatever the max is) with less than four matches entering the Big 10 Tournament then Kerkvliet has to beat Steveson and Parris just to make nationals.

If they are counting Big 10 Tournament matches into that 4, it presents an interesting situation in New Jersey. What if Suriano shows up with no matches at Big 10 Tournament and gets the #2 seed. He would either have to win quarters, semis and Lee in the finals or no NCAA tournament. Or he could tank his first round and build up his match count in the wrestlebacks where I would assume he gets whatever place he needs.

Sorry I don't mean to hijack this threat so hopefully I am not.

You are not following the qualifying process at all. However ever many NCAA spots the BIG is allocated at each weight any wrestler (doesn't matter how many matches they have) who finishes top 6 (or whatever number is allocated to BIG at that weight earns a spot. You only need the 4 matches to earn an at-large spot if you don't get an auto qualifier at your conference tournament.

 

[regularfan]

You are not following the qualifying process at all. However ever many NCAA spots the BIG is allocated at each weight any wrestler (doesn't matter how many matches they have) who finishes top 6 (or whatever number is allocated to BIG at that weight earns a spot. You only need the 4 matches to earn an at-large spot if you don't get an auto qualifier at your conference tournament.

I think that is what they meant to say and that would make sense to me but that is not what they have written.

"A pre-allocated spot is NOT an AQ. Pre-allocated spots are spots the committee has elected to award based on established criteria. For 2021 Championships, that criteria is based on historical data. AQ's are awarded to the conference champion at each weight class."

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2020-21D1MWR_QualifierAllocationCriteria.pdf

 

[psumacw]

You are not following the qualifying process at all. However ever many NCAA spots the BIG is allocated at each weight any wrestler (doesn't matter how many matches they have) who finishes top 6 (or whatever number is allocated to BIG at that weight earns a spot. You only need the 4 matches to earn an at-large spot if you don't get an auto qualifier at your conference tournament.

the scenario is if nevills qualifies the spot for the big ten, but then doesn't wrestle at the conference tournament, the big ten loses his automatic qualifying spot (would go from top 6 to top 5 as auto-qualifiers). if kerk then finishes in the top 5, he automatically qualifies for NCAA's, regardless of how many matches he actually wrestled.

 

[regularfan]

the scenario is if nevills qualifies the spot for the big ten, but then doesn't wrestle at the conference tournament, the big ten loses his automatic qualifying spot (would go from top 6 to top 5 as auto-qualifiers). if kerk then finishes in the top 5, he automatically qualifies for NCAA's, regardless of how many matches he actually wrestled.

In a normal year I would understand that but Nevills (or anybody) cannot qualify a spot this year as I read it if they are using historical data and averages over the past five years.

 

[jbkeller72]

Must finish in the at or above the auto-qualifier number. So if the Big Ten gets 5 at 285, he must finish top-5 ... based on everything we know right now, meaning less than 4 bouts heading into the B1G Tournament AND he's healthy enough by tournament time.

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

Hwt took a turn last weekend when Luffman (IL) took out Hilger and Orndorff. It'll be interesting to see how the qualifiers shake out. No doubt Kerk is top 3 in conference when healthy enough to go, but he could see some tough comp early on if he goes

 

[NoVa Lion]

In a normal year I would understand that but Nevills (or anybody) cannot qualify a spot this year as I read it if they are using historical data and averages over the past five years.

How the spot is qualified to the conference is irrelevant. If the conference gets 5 AQ spots and you finish top 5 at the conference tournament then you get an AQ. End of story.

 

[psumacw]

In a normal year I would understand that but Nevills (or anybody) cannot qualify a spot this year as I read it if they are using historical data and averages over the past five years.

my interpretation is that they're using historical data to allocate spots to conferences because there is so few matches overall and even lower inter-conference matches. so they're basically saying "the big ten usually deserves X spots so even though we don't have the stats to support any exact number this year, we'll hide behind this 'historical data' clause to let us do whatever we want."

i don't think they're taking 5 years of results from each wrestler into account when determining allocations, but i could be wrong.

 

[Random4598375]

How the spot is qualified to the conference is irrelevant. If the conference gets 5 AQ spots and you finish top 5 at the conference tournament then you get an AQ. End of story.

That's not what the quoted rules say, though:

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

Wrestler with less than 4 matches would NOT be eligible for a pre-allocated spot nor an at-large spot. In other words, you have to wrestle 4 matches to be eligible. Period. The only exception to that is that if they win the conference championship with less than 4 matches, they can go in the AQ spot.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Is there a stip that the four match minimum has to be against guys from other schools? Bouts at open tourneys against teammates have always been “official” so I thought I’d ask.

Anyone?

 

[NoVa Lion]

That's not what the quoted rules say, though:

"Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot."

Wrestler with less than 4 matches would NOT be eligible for a pre-allocated spot nor an at-large spot. In other words, you have to wrestle 4 matches to be eligible. Period. The only exception to that is that if they win the conference championship with less than 4 matches, they can go in the AQ spot.

That is not what it says or means. They would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot "FOR THEIR CONFERNCE". Meaning they cannot earn a spot FOR THEIR CONFERENCE. Remember that this is for all conferences (some only the winner gets an AQ).

You and regularfan are ignoring this "Must finish at or above the auto-qualifier number. So if the Big Ten gets 5 at 285, he must finish top-5 ". You are making this more complicated than it really is.

 

[regularfan]

That is not what it says or means. They would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot "FOR THEIR CONFERNCE". Meaning they cannot earn a spot FOR THEIR CONFERENCE. Remember that this is for all conferences (some only the winner gets an AQ).

I don't want to belabor the point but if they didn't mean that then why put that statement in the official qualifying criteria for the first time ever in this year.

If they have 330 wrestlers, they state they will have 70 conference champions, 220 pre-allocated spots, and 40 at-large spots. The guidelines specifically state a wrestler with less than four matches is not eligible for a pre-allocated spot which is the exact wording they use for the spots given to a conference. It's not like they just forgot to delete a section that doesn't apply to this season, this was explicitly put in for this one-year situation.

 

[Random4598375]

That is not what it says or means. They would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot "FOR THEIR CONFERNCE". Meaning they cannot earn a spot FOR THEIR CONFERENCE. Remember that this is for all conferences (some only the winner gets an AQ).

You and regularfan are ignoring this "Must finish at or above the auto-qualifier number. So if the Big Ten gets 5 at 285, he must finish top-5 ". You are making this more complicated than it really is.

I don't think you're right about that, but if you are, it's very poorly worded by the NCAA. Compare to last year's document. In last year's document, it says that pre-allocated spots become AQs as soon as the wrestler who earned the spot competes in the conference tournament, meaning that the conference is guaranteed the number of PQ spots. This year, the document says exactly the opposite - pre-allocated spots are NOT AQs and only the conference winner is an AQ. To me, that change in wording should imply that some of the pre-allocated spots might NOT qualify, combined with the way the 4 match minimum is worded, implying that if a wrestler finishes in the pre-allocated spots but without the 4-match minimum, he still doesn't go (unless he wins).

We'll see, I guess, but this is critical for someone like Kerk if he does come into the tournament without any matches but has a bye (seems unlikely but not impossible depending on how many teams opt out) and has Gable on the opposite half, it might be better to lose a semi to make sure he gets 4 matches than have to beat Gable to qualify as an AQ with 3 matches.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2019-20D1MWR_QualifierAllocationCriteria.pdf

 

[regularfan]

Thank you Random. Your above post explained what I was getting at way better than I probably am.

 

[Random4598375]

Thank you Random. Your above post explained what I was getting at way better than I probably am.

Thanks. I just want to be clear that I'm not an expert or insider on this, I'm just reading what's there and interpreting it. I could easily be wrong and it's really just a big problem with the way the document is written.

 

[Brian LB-U]

So true, Barry Sanders was a freak of nature.

So was Woodson.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

Thank you Random. Your above post explained what I was getting at way better than I probably am.

I too was confused by the exact same thing [Random nailed it].

But I gotta go with 'poor wording'. I'd like to say because it just makes sense, but it's ncaa. Would cause some unintended circumstances in Conf tournys for the no-match guys, if they MUST get 4. Also, if it was indeed 4 minimum, I'd think there'd be a clause included stating 'in that event it goes to the next place finisher [if qualified] and so on and so forth"? At least I hope so.

 

[RoarLions1]

PRE-ALLOCATED SPOT - Number of auto-qualifier spots allotted BEFORE the Conference Tournament starts

AUTO-QUALIFIER SPOTS - The number of auto-qualifiers allotted AFTER the Conference Tournament starts, the difference being that any wrestler earning a PRE-ALLOCATED SPOT that DOES NOT WRESTLE will have their spot removed, and the spot goes to the at-large pool

Any wrestler, regardless of how many matches wrestled during the season, that finishes at or above the number of Auto-Qualifier Spots, has earned their way to the NCAA Tournament. Any wrestler with less than four matches HEADING INTO THEIR CONFERENCE TOURNAMENT are not eligible for at-large selection.

 

[Lyons212]

Before we worry about the various scenarios, the first thing that has to happen is Kerk being ready to wrestle, until then, nothing else matters.

 

[jack66]

Using historical data to allocate spots is the only fair way to do it this year.

Because the ACC is particularly weak at Hwt this year, they could easily have wrestlers ranked outside the top-20 with a better record than a Top-10 wrestler in the Big Ten.

Trent Hillger is an example. He already has 1 loss and still has to wrestle Stevenson, Paris, Cassioppi and presumably Nevills. He could be one of the top-10 Hwts and still end with a 5-4 record ... Orndorff faces a similar issue.

To me, based on historical data, the Big should get a minimum of 6 spots, and with the way Luffman is wrestling probably 7.

 

[slicone]

When they say historical data, they are referring to an average of qualifiers that weight historically has

They will average the last few years at each weight

So no individual will earn spots this year,,,, they are already decided

If they take 8 at say 125 all the top 8 qualify, no matter their record or how many matches they wrestled

If someone really good does not earn an auto (like Young last year) to be considered for an at large they need 4 matches

So Kirk {for instance} could be 0-0 and gets in the top 8 (least it will be is 8 imo) he will be in

Might be more than 8 per weight since the Ivy's are out

I do think all weights will have equal AQs at each weight

The question will come if they cant fill out the full bracket, will they make exceptions to the 4 match rule (probably not an issue)

Also if they have 4 matches and can't wrestle conference tourney, because of covid issues, they still can be picked for nattys

I think the reason they make the point that if an athlete wins the tournament he auto qualifies for Nationals is because there were times when that wasn't true

I'm pretty sure this is correct, however I think this situation could be a little more fluid, so changes could be made on the fly

I also reserve the ever so slight chance I am misinterpreting everything

 

[dunkej01]

When they say historical data, they are referring to an average of qualifiers that weight historically has

They will average the last few years at each weight

So no individual will earn spots this year,,,, they are already decided

If they take 8 at say 125 all the top 8 qualify, no matter their record or how many matches they wrestled

If someone really good does not earn an auto (like Young last year) to be considered for an at large they need 4 matches

So Kirk {for instance} could be 0-0 and gets in the top 8 (least it will be is 8 imo) he will be in

Might be more than 8 per weight since the Ivy's are out

I do think all weights will have equal AQs at each weight

The question will come if they cant fill out the full bracket, will they make exceptions to the 4 match rule (probably not an issue)

Also if they have 4 matches and can't wrestle conference tourney, because of covid issues, they still can be picked for nattys

I think the reason they make the point that if an athlete wins the tournament he auto qualifies for Nationals is because there were times when that wasn't true

I'm pretty sure this is correct, however I think this situation could be a little more fluid, so changes could be made on the fly

I also reserve the ever so slight chance I am misinterpreting everything

I appreciate the format of your post. It made it easier for me to reread multiple times, as it all goes over my head.

 

[WildTurk]

I appreciate the format of your post. It made it easier for me to reread multiple times, as it all goes over my head.

Sounds about right

 

[amattaro]

I will go waaaaay out on a limb here and say that if Kerkvliet can go at Big Ten, however many (or few) automatic bids the conference gets, he will earn one of them.

 

[regularfan]

Using the data the NCAA provided from the past five years and taking into account teams sitting out I came up with the following averages. I am not sure if they will make it an even number per weight/conference or how they account for the teams that have been cut or switched conferences over the past five years.

This is just my simple averages and is by no means official. Depending on those things they might shift a little but this should be in the neighborhood. I also wonder about the SoCon and if they would really only let in one person in half the weights. All the numbers in the 33 man bracket are pretty close to a round number with the exception of Big 10 and SoCon which fall in the middle.

33 man bracket
ACC: 38
Big 12: 50
Big 10: 86
EIWA: 30
MAC: 49
PAC 12: 21
SoCon: 15

24 man bracket
ACC: 26
Big 12: 34
Big 10: 59
EIWA: 21
MAC: 34
PAC 12: 15
SoCon: 11

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Some Brian droppings:

Give us a few more weeks of Covid and some more canceled/delayed matches and I think the Big10 & NCAAs might relax the qualifying standards, maybe even issue medical exemptions.

Kerk coming back makes my week, maybe even the month. No way he had ACL surgery then. My bet is either meniscus tear in the knee or soft tissue elsewhere. In either case, definitely recoverable in relatively short order.

I am stoked, he is special. There is still a chance he and Gable will go at it this year, before the latter rides off into the sunset.

 

[Johnbrooks]

I never post but I thought I would eliminate any rumors flying around. Greg Jr. Is rehabbing and there is a strong possibility that timing will align with him making big tens. We will see what happens but he is in good spirits and focused on what is needed to accomplish his goals.

Greg Sr.

They aren’t used to dads keeping them in the loop, but I can tell you the guys on the board appreciate it.

 

[86PSUPaul]

They aren’t used to dads keeping them in the loop, but I can tell you the guys on the board appreciate it.

That is 100% correct, and we also appreciate how you do it. We also understand other parents that chose to stay away.
Thank you both, as well as all the other parents!

 

[BOSCO2]

That is 100% correct, and we also appreciate how you do it. We also understand other parents that chose to stay away.
Thank you both, as well as all the other parents!

You gotta admit, though, that the Wrestling Board is a lot more civilized that either of the Football boards. If my son played football here I'd NEVER go near those boards.

 

[82bordeaux]

You gotta admit, though, that the Wrestling Board is a lot more civilized that either of the Football boards. If my son played football here I'd NEVER go near those boards.

 

[WaterSt.Nit]

Sorry for my ignorance but if you think Kerk will be ready for conference tourney and not get his needed four matches can you have him step on the mat the week before and default as soon as the match starts. It's a loss but a match. He doesn't need to win four matches he just needs to participate in 4

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Sorry for my ignorance but if you think Kerk will be ready for conference tourney and not get his needed four matches can you have him step on the mat the week before and default as soon as the match starts. It's a loss but a match. He doesn't need to win four matches he just needs to participate in 4

I’ve brought up a similar scenario but no one seems to want to answer my question.

Do the ”extra matches” planned for our duals count towards official records?
Would a match against a team mate count? May sound stupid,but matches against team mates have always counted in the past, right?

 

[pish69]

I’ve brought up a similar scenario but no one seems to want to answer my question.

Do the ”extra matches” planned for our duals count towards official records?
Would a match against a team mate count? May sound stupid,but matches against team mates have always counted in the past, right?

Yes..extra matches count on official records

Matches against teamates don't

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Yes..extra matches count on official records

Matches against teamates don't

Never have?


Thanks

 

[El-Jefe]

Sorry for my ignorance but if you think Kerk will be ready for conference tourney and not get his needed four matches can you have him step on the mat the week before and default as soon as the match starts. It's a loss but a match. He doesn't need to win four matches he just needs to participate in 4

He'd have to win some. No 0-4 wrestler is getting an at large bid.

 

[nitlion6]

He'd have to win some. No 0-4 wrestler is getting an at large bid.

This being the weirdest of all weird years, who knows what's what. At least this season.

 

[Folkstylefan]

Why even have the tournaments. Every wrestler who wins/places will have an * Frey record covid why even count it. Wrestle matches call it a yr.