James Franklin has a loser mentality

[heckmans]

IMHO, I don't think people would be as unhappy with a 10-2 record, if it wasn't for these records:

1-9 vs. O$U....includes 7 straight losses
3-7 vs. MI....includes 3 straight losses
5-5 vs. MSU

Joe had plenty of 9-3 seasons. He gets a giant pass because he also had 5 undefeated seasons in 4 different decades and (6) 1 loss seasons. His teams also performed well against similarly talented teams. In an era when bowls mattered to those involved, his record was 24-12-1 (13-4 in major bowls).

The reason fans aren't happy with 10-11 win seasons under JF is because you can pretty much look at a schedule before the season and pencil in the maximum number of wins. His teams generally do not excel against opponents of similar talent and you can pretty much expect a giant scare or loss against an inferior opponent (all depends on the coordinators).

So far, JFs ceiling is 2 losses. He's got 1 B2G championship and zero playoff appearances in a decade while making $8.5M/yr, and in the season of the B2G championship, tOSU only had one loss and went to the CFB playoff ahead of PSU. If JF ever won anything, he'd get a pass. If JF put teams on the field that could compete with OSU, instead of just hanging around due to very good defenses, he'd get a pass.

Joe would publicly say that his goal was for every kid, during his 4 years, to compete for a national title. With 11 seasons of 0/1 loss, he was about on target. JF doesn't seem to have any expectations of being more than a 2nd tier team that will generally skirt into the 12 team playoff, and then lose an away playoff game by 10+ points.
To reiterate, people would be fine with 10-11 win seasons if there was ever a 0/1 loss season or even the impression that one was possible. Sadly, not a single PSU fan would place a bet on PSU finishing with 0/1 loss and think they had a reasonable chance of winning the bet.

 

[Obliviax]

here is a case in point on how the program reflects on the University. Every program has problems as kids transition from living at home in structured environments to less structured environments. CJF has done a nice job with this lately.

 

[LandoComando]

here is a case in point on how the program reflects on the University. Every program has problems as kids transition from living at home in structured environments to less structured environments. CJF has done a nice job with this lately.

View embedded media

Again, what does this have to do with the topic?
People love to bring up "culture" and "he's a good guy" when they can't make an argument about actual coaching

 

[voltz99]

What did the OP ever win?

 

[voltz99]

Again, what does this have to do with the topic?
People love to bring up "culture" and "he's a good guy" when they can't make an argument about actual coaching

Sort of like Success With Honor?

What is your plan? Empty the prisons and win baby win?

 

[wilbury]

THIS! The problem is he is always hedging his positions and adding some unnecessary accolades or excuse that implies blame elsewhere. It's sort of a constant "this but that" dance that I am growing weary of. We lose to a bad Michigan State team in 2017 and it's we should have won, "BUT" we'll never be caught in such a disruptive weather delay again for this once in a lifetime scenario as unprepared as we were(are you a playoff team or not, James). After OSU, you get the "ELITE speech" about my players are going to have to bring notebooks around campus, sit at the front of the room, scratch and claw to get a little better." "HEY" we've been pretty damn good around here......as a University, a COMMUNITY, we need to battle 365 days a year in everything, everything we do!" It's just hard not to notice this underlying feeling of "hey, we're close, but I need more from everyone and if we come up short......damnit, 10 wins aint bad at most place you grumbling half-wit fans and administrators."

Lets kind of stop ignoring the elephant in the room too, we rarely play a schedule anymore, especially with added games, where anything less than 9 games would at all be acceptable considering what Penn State, the university, the fans, the resources/facilities would tolerate. Just say I measure success as 10 wins, or say....Championship or bust....stop splitting the baby with PR talk.

When have we ever, going back from the Paterno days, played a schedule where at least 9 wins wasn't expected? Don't pretend that this is a new thing.

 

[LandoComando]

Sort of like Success With Honor?

What is your plan? Empty the prisons and win baby win?

Success with Honor was never real. It was something people bought into to dismiss our failures
Kirby is infinitely better than Franklin and has proven that. He's giving kids a chance. If they fail that's on them not him.

 

[ram2020]

When have we ever, going back from the Paterno days, played a schedule where at least 9 wins wasn't expected? Don't pretend that this is a new thing.

So your argument is that 9 wins a year wasn't that impressive in the Paterno days? I'll agree

 

[Agoodnap]

E-e-ee-e-ee-ee-e-e!!!!!

Just stop with the "lower expectations" BS! Use it in context or not at all DB.

 

[MacNit2.0]

Joe wanted us to accept mediocrity and many people did because they were content believing "success with honor" meant more than anything else. Joe did a great job of getting the fan base to accept less than they should have.

Balderdash.

 

[MacNit2.0]

Of course it’s important. We Are Penn State, Great Experiment and more.

Recruits feel it. Recruits’ families feel it. Helps recruiting. Helps the team.

I am quite sure it gnaws at Franklin that he has a poor record against tOSU. Has to eat at him.

He has 2-3 years to make the jump. If not, the pressure on the administration to make a change will be huge.

He’s had plenty of time. As we complete the transition to minor league football, his in-game coaching deficiencies will be magnified.

Btw, Joe was one of the best in-game coaches and the best big game coach - ever.

 

[rrdd2021]

Success with Honor was never real. It was something people bought into to dismiss our failures
Kirby is infinitely better than Franklin and has proven that. He's giving kids a chance. If they fail that's on them not him.

This 100% and it wasn't used at just PSU. It was used frequently at ND and Michigan over the last couple of decades until Michigan kicked butt the last 3 years.

 

[crm114psu]

Btw, Joe was one of the best in-game coaches and the best big game coach - ever.

Not really. He got his ass handed to him by Bryant every time.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Not really. He got his ass handed to him by Bryant every time.

Bull💩 Losing a couple very close games isn’t getting your ass handed to you.

 

[LandoComando]

Balderdash.

How?

 

[LandoComando]

Btw, Joe was one of the best in-game coaches and the best big game coach - ever.

What data is this based on? Or just how you remember things?
Please don't ramble non-sense about bowl records. Most bowls were meaningless even back then--people just didn't realize it.

 

[lazydave841]

Most bowls were meaningless even back then

I would say that the bowls became irrelevant once the BCS began and started pitting 1v2 with the polls in agreement to vote the winner #1.

Prior to that, with all the mixed matched bowl tie ins, #1 could lose to #6, #2 could lose to #9, #3 could lose to #5 and #4 could beat #8 and end up the champ.

And prior to that, the champ was voted on before the bowls and many times end up losing their bowl game.

 

[PSUSignore]

JF doesn't seem to have any expectations of being more than a 2nd tier team that will generally skirt into the 12 team playoff, and then lose an away playoff game by 10+ points.

Blatantly inaccurate, but whatever.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Blatantly inaccurate, but whatever.

Yep, facts no longer matter in this world. It’s all about how you feel.

 

[LandoComando]

I would say that the bowls became irrelevant once the BCS began and started pitting 1v2 with the polls in agreement to vote the winner #1.

Prior to that, with all the mixed matched bowl tie ins, #1 could lose to #6, #2 could lose to #9, #3 could lose to #5 and #4 could beat #8 and end up the champ.

And prior to that, the champ was voted on before the bowls and many times end up losing their bowl game.

Back then 3 or 4 bowls mattered depending when they were played and what other results already occurred. Like we all knew before the Rose Bowl against Oregon we had zero chance of winning the national title because Nebraska won. It was over.

 

[lazydave841]

Like we all knew before the Rose Bowl against Oregon we had zero chance of winning the national title because Nebraska won. It was over.

Ah, we had the hopes of a split title. '90, '91 saw them as well as '97 after that season.

I guess we just couldn't not give Tommy O a split for his first after 11 years of not winning the right games.

 

[LandoComando]

Ah, we had the hopes of a split title. '90, '91 saw them as well as '97 after that season.

I guess we just couldn't not give Tommy O a split for his first after 11 years of not winning the right games.

No, fair or not (or not wins) Tommy was being given that title as soon as they won. We could have won 77-0 and we'd have been second. Especially with the Bowl Coalition even calling the Orange Bowl the National Championship Game.

 

[Lion_Backer]

Ah, we had the hopes of a split title. '90, '91 saw them as well as '97 after that season.

I guess we just couldn't not give Tommy O a split for his first after 11 years of not winning the right games.

IIRC, wasn't that the year the OSU AP voter dropped us in the rankings after defeating the Buckeyes 63-14?

And it just didn't happen in Ohio ....

 

[lazydave841]

IIRC, wasn't that the year the OSU AP voter dropped us in the rankings after defeating the Buckeyes 63-14?

And it just didn't happen in Ohio ....

Yep, fairly sure it was. Then a bunch dropped us after the Indiana "close game".

 

[LandoComando]

IIRC, wasn't that the year the OSU AP voter dropped us in the rankings after defeating the Buckeyes 63-14?

And it just didn't happen in Ohio ....

To be fair, didn't Nebraska beat #2 the same week. I really don't have a problem with 3 going to 1 after beat 2 regardless of what 1 did.

 

[Jerry]

To be fair, didn't Nebraska beat #2 the same week. I really don't have a problem with 3 going to 1 after beat 2 regardless of what 1 did.

Right, Lando, because you never have a problem with any take that downgrades Penn State victories...this year...last year...40 years ago.

Look, you seem to be a smart guy with a head for college football and I enjoy some of your posts...but please don't tell me you're a fan of Penn State football...because it insults my intelligence.

That said, by all means, keep yammering away. It's clearly important to you and also entertaining in an odd sort of way.

 

[LandoComando]

Right, Lando, because you never have a problem with any take that downgrades Penn State victories...this year...last year...40 years ago.

Look, you seem to be a smart guy with a head for college football and I enjoy some of your posts...but please don't tell me you're a fan of Penn State football...because it insults my intelligence.

That said, by all means, keep yammering away. It's clearly important to you and also entertaining in an odd sort of way.

How is that downgrading our victory? We destroyed and dominated a very good Buckeyes team. Hopefully we do that more often.

I don't understand why you don't think a Penn State fan can comprehend why #3 beating #2 would be a reasonable reason for them jumping us? What win was better?

Penn State was better than Nebraska in 94 and I wish we had a real playoff then so we could have proved it. That doesn't mean, I don't comprehend how #3 Nebraska beating #2 Colorado by 17 would lead to someone (or most) bumping them ahead of us. You really don't understand the logic there?

 

[ryoder1]

What data is this based on? Or just how you remember things?
Please don't ramble non-sense about bowl records. Most bowls were meaningless even back then--people just didn't realize it.

LOL!!

Winning that Miami NC game alone elevates him to icon status. Very few coaches could have done that. Bowl games mattered when Joe was in his prime and he dominated equally talented teams when there were no opt outs. Your premise is so absurd because you essentially are saying the opponent didn't care or try in all the bowl games Joe won pre BCS. So Oregon did not try in the '95 Rose Bowl? Tennesse in the '94 Citrus Bowl ran out to a big lead then just gave up and let Penn State win. Same thing in '92 Fiesta Bowl. Ohio State and USC couldn't have cared less about the Fiesta Bowls after the '80 and '81 seasons. On and on. You have no clue. You just don't like the narrative that Joe was a great coach.

And he was the first coach who stood up and said these football players are students first. He stressed academics unlike his football first and only football peers like Hayes, Schmuckbechler and yes Bryant.

 

[marshall23]

Has there been any year that JF’s pre season comments are acceptable to this Fan base?

James just doesn't know winning like the guys who post here do.

 

[marshall23]

"We're trying to win football games, don't misunderstand that," said Paterno, "But I don't want it to ruin our lives if we lose. I don't want us ever to become the kind of place where an 8-2 season is a tragedy. Look at that day outside. It's clear. It's beautiful, the leaves are turning, the land is pretty and it's quiet. If losing a game made me miserable, I couldn't enjoy such a day."
Joe Paterno

It isn't psu losing that makes people here miserable....they have lots of reasons.

 

[LandoComando]

LOL!!

Winning that Miami NC game alone elevates him to icon status. Very few coaches could have done that. Bowl games mattered when Joe was in his prime and he dominated equally talented teams when there were no opt outs. Your premise is so absurd because you essentially are saying the opponent didn't care or try in all the bowl games Joe won pre BCS. So Oregon did not try in the '95 Rose Bowl? Tennesse in the '94 Citrus Bowl ran out to a big lead then just gave up and let Penn State win. Same thing in '92 Fiesta Bowl. Ohio State and USC couldn't have cared less about the Fiesta Bowls after the '80 and '81 seasons. On and on. You have no clue. You just don't like the narrative that Joe was a great coach.

And he was the first coach who stood up and said these football players are students first. He stressed academics unlike his football first and only football peers like Hayes, Schmuckbechler and yes Bryant.

Team trying don't make them big games. That's like saying beating Northwestern is a big win because they tried.
Beating Miami absolutely is a huge win. That game was relevant. Tennessee is 94 wasn't.
Joe was a great coach. He just wasn't the best.
And you went back to education as opposed to football...predictably. That's irrelevant to your claim.

 

[Waltwam]

If NIL becomes a problem that's when Franklin needs to go...we need a coach that can convince donors to spend.

How much has he convinced you to give?

 

[ryoder1]

Team trying don't make them big games. That's like saying beating Northwestern is a big win because they tried.
Beating Miami absolutely is a huge win. That game was relevant. Tennessee is 94 wasn't.
Joe was a great coach. He just wasn't the best.
And you went back to education as opposed to football...predictably. That's irrelevant to your claim.

You don't make sense. He was able to beat teams of equal or better talent so that makes him a great in-game coach.

So move the goal posts to just the big 4 bowls (Orange, Cotton, Rose, Sugar) from '66 to '98 when BCS started. Joe was 7-4 for a 64% winning %. 2-2 in NC games. A very good record. You said it, Joe was a great coach but I don't think he is the best coach ever (could never beat Bear Bryant so you can't say he is the best ever) but he is one of the greats.

I brought up education because you seem to think Joe didn't care about his players graduating.

 

[LandoComando]

You don't make sense. He was able to beat teams of equal or better talent so that makes him a great in-game coach.

So move the goal posts to just the big 4 bowls (Orange, Cotton, Rose, Sugar) from '66 to '98 when BCS started. Joe was 7-4 for a 64% winning %. 2-2 in NC games. A very good record. You said it, Joe was a great coach but I don't think he is the best coach ever (could never beat Bear Bryant so you can't say he is the best ever) but he is one of the greats.

I brought up education because you seem to think Joe didn't care about his players graduating.

I never said Joe didn't care. I said he used it as an excuse for down seasons and many bought that nonsense.

In those "big 4" how often was the outcome part of deciding the national champ? I don't care about beating a top 10 in a bowl game when it's literally just a reward for a good season.

Joe was a great coach that people tend to overrated here due to bias. He wasn't as good as Bryant or Saban or Urban. Smart is well on his way to being better. All that matters are wins, losses and titles not "he cared about his players"

 

[LandoComando]

How much has he convinced you to give?

None thats the problem. Although I still don't believe NIL is a real problem. I think we have plenty of money to compete for elite kids.

 

[ryoder1]

I never said Joe didn't care. I said he used it as an excuse for down seasons and many bought that nonsense.

In those "big 4" how often was the outcome part of deciding the national champ? I don't care about beating a top 10 in a bowl game when it's literally just a reward for a good season.

Joe was a great coach that people tend to overrated here due to bias. He wasn't as good as Bryant or Saban or Urban. Smart is well on his way to being better. All that matters are wins, losses and titles not "he cared about his players"

So if you want to boil Joe's entire coaching career down to a 2-2 record in national championship games then be my guest. Not sure what that tells you. The fact he coached in 4 NC games, won two plus easily should have been awarded a two or three other NCs is a great record.

Yeah he is not the best coach ever. He had down seasons. stayed on way past when he should have retired and was clearly tarnished by the Sandusky scandal.

He also built Penn State into a juggernaut blue blood football program and was a great leader of young men who helped them and mentored them beyond football. He was a great coach and great man.

 

[bdgan]

No one can convince a donor to give if they believe we don’t need to do that to compete. That’s the problem - the mentality that we don’t pay to play.

I've questioned the $700 million stadium renovation for several reasons. I know that the stadium needs some repairs and improvements. I'm just not sure that the correct solution was $700 million or nothing. First of all I don't believe the additional revenue from an annual concert and playoff game are going to come close to covering the cost. I saw the Kirk Ferentz interview on the BiG Network last night and he talked about balancing the need for facilities with the need for NIL money. This is because the big donors are only going to give so much. The more they give to facilities the less they're going to give to NIL. I don't think it has much to do with the donors not believing we need money to compete.

 

[bdgan]

None thats the problem. Although I still don't believe NIL is a real problem. I think we have plenty of money to compete for elite kids.

I haven't seen numbers since January but at that time OSU had $20 million and PSU had $12 million. IIRC that put PSU somewhere between 10th and 15th in the country. That's not bad but it's still a huge gap between them and what it might take to compete for a MNC.

 

[bdgan]

"We're trying to win football games, don't misunderstand that," said Paterno, "But I don't want it to ruin our lives if we lose. I don't want us ever to become the kind of place where an 8-2 season is a tragedy. Look at that day outside. It's clear. It's beautiful, the leaves are turning, the land is pretty and it's quiet. If losing a game made me miserable, I couldn't enjoy such a day."
Joe Paterno

Joe was able to attract recruits by promoting academics in addition to football. His approach was particularly attractive to parents. He didn't have to attract recruits with money. Most PSU fans admired Joe for doing it the right way (Grand Experiment, Success with Honor).

Franklin might share those same ideals but the game has changed and is now more about money. He has no choice but to raise more money to pay players. That's the new reality. His problem is corporate donors are more difficult to come by in State College than they are in Columbus.

 

[LandoComando]

So if you want to boil Joe's entire coaching career down to a 2-2 record in national championship games then be my guest. Not sure what that tells you. The fact he coached in 4 NC games, won two plus easily should have been awarded a two or three other NCs is a great record.

Yeah he is not the best coach ever. He had down seasons. stayed on way past when he should have retired and was clearly tarnished by the Sandusky scandal.

He also built Penn State into a juggernaut blue blood football program and was a great leader of young men who helped them and mentored them beyond football. He was a great coach and great man.

No, there's meaningful regular season games as well. He had way too many "down seasons" if we're being honest. That's consistently ignored or defended here. And, yes, out of ego (not anything else) he stayed way too long.

He did build us into a blue blood, was a great coach and a great person. But I don't think that's the argument here, right? The comment was "the best big game coach" to which I asked for data to support that