J'Den Cox missed weight, will not compete

[a_mshaffer]

hell... let me weigh in up until the moment I have to wrestle... then if I hold the match up then what? ...make another exception since we can extend session x timeframe...
Deadline is a deadline. What would have happened if he had an accident on the way to the venue? Hold everything up? Maybe that is why we stress to get their early... they close airplane doors and won't open... (that I know of ).. Wrestlers have always had a weigh in time... and while maybe there have been some exceptions no one counts on the exception that I know of.

 

[McScoreley]

Cody Goodwin was actually at weigh ins (so were many other media people) I'm pretty sure if Cael threw a fit then it would have been verified pretty easily by now.

 

[Dogwelder]

One time I went to compete in the Nobel Prize contest, but I forgot to get dressed. They wouldn’t let me in naked. And so that’s why I don’t have a Nobel Prize today. True story.

 

[PSUer1989]

I am a fan, no wrestling experience. But in volleyball tournaments, the courts are posted, the rotations are known and all time related information is available to the coach and athletes. One would think there would be policy/things-to-know emails sent out to all vested individuals, athletes and coaches. Is that an unusual expectation for an elite wrestling tournament?

 

[PAgeologist]

I am a fan, no wrestling experience. But in volleyball tournaments, the courts are posted, the rotations are known and all time related information is available to the coach and athletes. One would think there would be policy/things-to-know emails sent out to all vested individuals, athletes and coaches. Is that an unusual expectation for an elite wrestling tournament?

I would think that would be pretty standard for most tournaments down to the elementary level. Although, maybe not email notifications.

 

[PAgeologist]

Are the wrestlers allowed early access to the scales, to see if and how much they are over weight? If official weigh ins start at 7 and end at 8, are scales open at 6 or 630? Just curious.

 

[Sportfan2017]

One time I went to compete in the Nobel Prize contest, but I forgot to get dressed. They wouldn’t let me in naked. And so that’s why I don’t have a Nobel Prize today. True story.

THAT was you?!? I was the guy knocking on the door window begging someone to let me in. They kept saying I was too late. I kept explaining time dilation to the door man but he was not understanding my perfectly logical reason. Intellect is so fickle
PS: Nice Buns!

 

[dunkej01]

js,

I remember really getting into it w/ you over the whole Zain/Yianni re-wrestle thing. Just curious--do you support some sort of redo of 97Kg this time? If you've missed my take before--I think they probably should have let him wrestle, but because they didn't, think it's far too late now to do anything without being completely unfair to the other competetors.

Well....we are waiting @js8793

 

[js8793]

js,

I remember really getting into it w/ you over the whole Zain/Yianni re-wrestle thing. Just curious--do you support some sort of redo of 97Kg this time? If you've missed my take before--I think they probably should have let him wrestle, but because they didn't, think it's far too late now to do anything without being completely unfair to the other competetors.

Definitely too late now because he wasn't in the finals. They would have to redo the whole 97 bracket.

I'm torn, but probably lean towards them making the right call. I wanted J'Den on the team because I think he's the best shot at gold and Cox/Sadulaev is my #1 anticipated match up. However, making weight on time is an essential part of the sport. If you bend the rules for J'Den, you're on a slippery slope. In my opinion, you can't make any sort of exemption for J'Den Cox that you also wouldn't make for Zach Sanders.

I honestly don't really remember what my position was on Yianni/Zain lol it's been so long. I know I thought the exposure call was wrong and that they shouldn't have reviewed the sequence. Zain put an end to it anyway I guess. He's as good as anybody when preparing for a single opponent, but seems to falter when he's in a bracket.

 

[nerfstate]

Definitely too late now because he wasn't in the finals. They would have to redo the whole 97 bracket.

I'm torn, but probably lean towards them making the right call. I wanted J'Den on the team because I think he's the best shot at gold and Cox/Sadulaev is my #1 anticipated match up. However, making weight on time is an essential part of the sport. If you bend the rules for J'Den, you're on a slippery slope. In my opinion, you can't make any sort of exemption for J'Den Cox that you also wouldn't make for Zach Sanders.

I honestly don't really remember what my position was on Yianni/Zain lol it's been so long. I know I thought the exposure call was wrong and that they shouldn't have reviewed the sequence. Zain put an end to it anyway I guess. He's as good as anybody when preparing for a single opponent, but seems to falter when he's in a bracket.

I was opposed to the redo, but you seemed to think it was a great idea. I would only point out that Zain has won far more brackets that he has entered than he lost (and more WTTs than Yianni and JO both. He certainly hasn’t performed as well as hoped internationally to date, however—I have to give you that.

 

[dunkej01]

He's as good as anybody when preparing for a single opponent, but seems to falter when he's in a bracket.

I've often thought this. I've rewatched the Nlee match 3 or 4 times and as much as the score board told a story I didn't think it was a run away. It seems a couple in match flurry type of adjustments and he is an epic wrestler. But these matches seem to come too fast in spurts that he tends to be on the wrong end of....consistently and across the world

 

[js8793]

I was opposed to the redo, but you seemed to think it was a great idea. I would only point out that Zain has won far more brackets that he has entered than he lost (and more WTTs than Yianni and JO both. He certainly hasn’t performed as well as hoped internationally to date, however—I have to give you that.

Right, I think I did support the redo. It's coming back to me now. My position had less to do with the judgement call on the review and more to do with the fact that the review violated the rules in the first place (which it pretty clearly did).

I'll also cop to the fact that there was probably some bias built in as well that shaped my view, as it would anybody's (I doubt there was a single PSU supportive of it). It was actually kind of funny how that whole thing played out because I was rooting for Zain because I felt the Yianni hype was way overblown after Zain completely blew the first US Open match against him. I felt Zain was the better guy going in. The bad call just swung me 180 degrees immediately.

So in a way my position is pretty consistent in that I favor sticking with the procedures in place. J'Den missed weight and that's the end of it. The challenge was illegal and so the match was void. Obviously, it's a bigger jump with the redo as it's a correction of misapplied procedure and not an upholding of it.

 

[js8793]

I've often thought this. I've rewatched the Nlee match 3 or 4 times and as much as the score board told a story I didn't think it was a run away. It seems a couple in match flurry type of adjustments and he is an epic wrestler. But these matches seem to come too fast in spurts that he tends to be on the wrong end of....consistently and across the world

He's got a big hole in his game that pops up and bites him and that's that he gets exposed on his shots a lot. And often times it comes in positions where he should not have been able to get exposed. For example, McKenna exposed him twice AFTER getting his bottom leg hooked on that single finish. That's pretty ridiculous. It was 2 and 2, but that was money for McKenna because it just negates the position and is as good as a stalemate. And since it's fresh in my mind, there's no way Yianni should have been able to take him through on the controversial chest wrap at Final X from the position he was in. Nick Lee hit a big chest wrap for 4 as well. His worlds match last year, etc...

I don't know why that seems to pop up more in tournament settings. Maybe because he's not focused on one guy, he's not as sharp mentally and gets too loose? Idk.

I also wonder whether he might just be a little too big for 65. He doesn't physically overwhelm people like he used to.

 

[dunkej01]

He's got a big hole in his game that pops up and bites him and that's that he gets exposed on his shots a lot. And often times it comes in positions where he should not have been able to get exposed. For example, McKenna exposed him twice AFTER getting his bottom leg hooked on that single finish. That's pretty ridiculous. It was 2 and 2, but that was money for McKenna because it just negates the position and is as good as a stalemate. And since it's fresh in my mind, there's no way Yianni should have been able to take him through on the controversial chest wrap at Final X from the position he was in. Nick Lee hit a big chest wrap for 4 as well. His worlds match last year, etc...

I don't know why that seems to pop up more in tournament settings. Maybe because he's not focused on one guy, he's not as sharp mentally and gets too loose? Idk.

I also wonder whether he might just be a little too big for 65. He doesn't physically overwhelm people like he used to.

I could be waaay wrong but going back to HS he has these moments where the match moves fast and he doesn't control it. I'm going off a captain fueled memory at the moment and the kid is a generational talent but when guys took the match to him steiber, kid from bellefonte that wrestled for edinboro, FS circuit...seems he ends up on the wrong end of exchanges. Would people call him a great scrambler?? Maybe he is, at the moment I wonder. He was just so dominant, I dont know.

But his normal match is he pushes pace, he controls all aspects of the match and he wins what 98%++ of the time

Who knows just something I've thought these past loses on the FS scene

 

[Chickenman Testa]

The dumbest argument in this whole saga is leaning on how Russia does things and just going by whimsy and the eye test. Yeah, let’s follow the most corrupt sporting nation on earth.
Wrestling trials here are actually more “fair” than trials in our most successful Olympic Sports. At least with wrestling, the favorite, if sitting, can ask for a delay if injured. In Swimming or Track, you qualify at trials or you are out - doesn’t matter who you are. Far bigger favorites than JDen Cox have missed out on the Olympics because of this.
Don’t like it, change the rules well before the competition. Don’t make it up as you go along

 

[El-Jefe]

He's got a big hole in his game that pops up and bites him and that's that he gets exposed on his shots a lot. And often times it comes in positions where he should not have been able to get exposed. For example, McKenna exposed him twice AFTER getting his bottom leg hooked on that single finish. That's pretty ridiculous. It was 2 and 2, but that was money for McKenna because it just negates the position and is as good as a stalemate. And since it's fresh in my mind, there's no way Yianni should have been able to take him through on the controversial chest wrap at Final X from the position he was in. Nick Lee hit a big chest wrap for 4 as well. His worlds match last year, etc...

This seems fair.

The other issue with Zain's freestyle game is that he doesn't hit any "big points." I think I've only seen him hit a 4 once (when he got into a rear standing position). Which means he has to work harder than others do, with less margin for error and more of an uphill climb if he gives up points.

This is a harder nut to crack -- even going back to HS, I've never seen him throw anybody. (Arm drag into a shot doesn't count.) But it also strikes me as less important than giving up exposure. He and the coaches will need to figure out if/how much to address this.

 

[Centuar94]

What happened to Personal Responsibility?

 

[js8793]

I could be waaay wrong but going back to HS he has these moments where the match moves fast and he doesn't control it. I'm going off a captain fueled memory at the moment and the kid is a generational talent but when guys took the match to him steiber, kid from bellefonte that wrestled for edinboro, FS circuit...seems he ends up on the wrong end of exchanges. Would people call him a great scrambler?? Maybe he is, at the moment I wonder. He was just so dominant, I dont know.

But his normal match is he pushes pace, he controls all aspects of the match and he wins what 98%++ of the time

Who knows just something I've thought these past loses on the FS scene

Yeah, idk. He never seemed to have problems in college. Maybe the level of competition is just higher? 149 wasn't a great weight and the best, most consistent guy he had to wrestle was Sorensen, who doesn't pose the scrambling problem at all.

I have a hard time reconciling Joey Mckenna beating the Zain Retherford I saw in college.

 

[js8793]

This seems fair.

The other issue with Zain's freestyle game is that he doesn't hit any "big points." I think I've only seen him hit a 4 once (when he got into a rear standing position). Which means he has to work harder than others do, with less margin for error and more of an uphill climb if he gives up points.

This is a harder nut to crack -- even going back to HS, I've never seen him throw anybody. (Arm drag into a shot doesn't count.) But it also strikes me as less important than giving up exposure. He and the coaches will need to figure out if/how much to address this.

Yeah, he doesn't have an upperbody game or a big chest wrap, and he tends to finish his attacks down on the mat, so no doubles for 4. Finishing down on the mat is especially problematic considering he struggles with counter exposures. It means to score, he has to go into one of his weaknesses every time.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Enough said

 

[Sportfan2017]

Yeah, idk. He never seemed to have problems in college. Maybe the level of competition is just higher? 149 wasn't a great weight and the best, most consistent guy he had to wrestle was Sorensen, who doesn't pose the scrambling problem at all.

I have a hard time reconciling Joey Mckenna beating the Zain Retherford I saw in college.

In College......Zain got to be on top .....and stay there......huge difference.

 

[McScoreley]

He's got a big hole in his game that pops up and bites him and that's that he gets exposed on his shots a lot. And often times it comes in positions where he should not have been able to get exposed. For example, McKenna exposed him twice AFTER getting his bottom leg hooked on that single finish. That's pretty ridiculous. It was 2 and 2, but that was money for McKenna because it just negates the position and is as good as a stalemate. And since it's fresh in my mind, there's no way Yianni should have been able to take him through on the controversial chest wrap at Final X from the position he was in. Nick Lee hit a big chest wrap for 4 as well. His worlds match last year, etc...

I don't know why that seems to pop up more in tournament settings. Maybe because he's not focused on one guy, he's not as sharp mentally and gets too loose? Idk.

I also wonder whether he might just be a little too big for 65. He doesn't physically overwhelm people like he used to.

This is really good analysis actually and I thought it was his main issue this past weekend. Opponent seems to know how to use his shots to score.

I also wonder if Zain is just in a mental funk also. By his own admission, he can get in his own head. I know it's shocking because we're used to seeing an absolute monster on the mat but Zain is human also. I remember in his interview after the 2019 Final X he said he was "off" his last 2 matches ever in college because he started thinking about the team race. I'm sure he has an idea of the things that are said by his critics and I imagine he did take it pretty hard knowing he couldn't qualify USA for 65KG at the tournament it was supposed to be done.

 

[AgSurfer]

He still didn't think weigh ins started until 8 though. From the eye witness accounts I heard, he was going through his normal light final cut as if he had time when KJ came running into the room a couple minutes before they closed to tell him he's gotta run and he was caught off guard. If weigh ins were when he thought, he would have made weight no problem like everyone else.

When he walked into the building doesn't really matter because nobody really shows up to the arena on weight. He thought he had more time to drop his final 2 lbs and if he started 10 minutes earlier he would have made it.

Getting back to the original topic, this episode with Cox reminds me of a very similar incident that happened in the 1972 Olympics. The old timers posting here might remember the same. It was either a semi-final or finals for the 100 m sprint and the Russians had a star named Valeri Borzov ( or something like that) The US had two guys who were looking to beat him. Problem was that the times for the heats were given in 24 hour time. Their race was posted as something like 14:00 hours. The track coach mistakenly read that as 4:00 pm, so the two American guys were sitting in their rooms at the Olympic village when they saw on TV their event being set up at the stadium. I think one of them got there just as the race started but wasn't able to get onto the track in time. The Russian guy ended up winning the gold medal, but our guys always thought they could have beat him.

And then there was that basketball game, but since this is.a wrestling forum ...

 

[WreslingFan0314]

He still didn't think weigh ins started until 8 though. From the eye witness accounts I heard, he was going through his normal light final cut as if he had time when KJ came running into the room a couple minutes before they closed to tell him he's gotta run and he was caught off guard. If weigh ins were when he thought, he would have made weight no problem like everyone else.

When he walked into the building doesn't really matter because nobody really shows up to the arena on weight. He thought he had more time to drop his final 2 lbs and if he started 10 minutes earlier he would have made it.

Just out of curiosity, how does a wrestler lose his final 2 lbs in an hour or less before the weigh in?

 

[Sportfan2017]

Just out of curiosity, how does a wrestler lose his final 2 lbs in an hour or less before the weigh in?

Well......it depends what decade you are referring to. I was a teacher for many years. I saw wrestlers wrap themselves in plastic garbage bags and sweat themselves to near passing out. I was told by wrestlers that they took those products you take before a colonoscopy just to empty their colons to make weight. Some of these poor kids looked like ghosts in my class....barely able to sit up. Thankfully most of those methods were basically outlawed by the hydration rules. Currently......it is still a lot of sweating and spitting but far safer than the 70's and 80's. That said.....I also had students that wanted to wrestle up weights who told me they had put lead in their jockstraps to reach the minimum weight to wrestle at 195 or heavyweight. I assume they weren't BSing me

 

[Rhino80]

Its been a few years (ok a bunch of years) but back in the day, when you got your credentials, you were handed the event schedule. It had the weigh-in time frame, with a short paragraph under it stating that if you don't make weight by X time you will not be bracketed. I would imagine that procedure or one like it is still in place.

 

[lionlover]

One time I went to compete in the Nobel Prize contest, but I forgot to get dressed. They wouldn’t let me in naked. And so that’s why I don’t have a Nobel Prize today. True story.

I wanted to give you a like for the clever retort, but I had to give you an ANGRY sign for giving me that visualization!

 

[lionlover]

Yeah, idk. He never seemed to have problems in college. Maybe the level of competition is just higher? 149 wasn't a great weight and the best, most consistent guy he had to wrestle was Sorensen, who doesn't pose the scrambling problem at all.

I have a hard time reconciling Joey Mckenna beating the Zain Retherford I saw in college.

Then again, we are talking free vs folk. In folk, Zain literally tortured the fight out of wrestlers when he rode them. That aspect of his skill set is significantly minimized in free.

 

[lionlover]

Just out of curiosity, how does a wrestler lose his final 2 lbs in an hour or less before the weigh in?

 

[js8793]

Just out of curiosity, how does a wrestler lose his final 2 lbs in an hour or less before the weigh in?

At this level, that's a super easy cut. These guys have it down to a science. I wasn't even a good weight cutter (or wrestler for that matter) and I could drop 4-5 in an hour if I needed to.

Typically, guys will get close to scratch after their workout the night before, eat and rehydrate and be a few lbs over going to bed, float a lb or 2 and then sweat off the rest easy right before weigh ins with a light workout. This is the right way to do it because it doesn't starve your body of nutrients or water for long periods of time.

If you don't believe me, he literally did it and by all accounts wasn't even working hard to do it because he thought he had way more time.

 

[El-Jefe]

Just out of curiosity, how does a wrestler lose his final 2 lbs in an hour or less before the weigh in?

Ever see Cox sweat?

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Ever see Cox sweat?

The wording..... yikes

 

[Dogwelder]

I love it when an athlete has his own immortal number(s). Cael has 159-0. And poor J’Den has 8:14.

 

[raslen007]

Cody Goodwin was actually at weigh ins (so were many other media people) I'm pretty sure if Cael threw a fit then it would have been verified pretty easily by now.

View embedded media

You would think a 2x world champ would know better. Know the dang rules yourself and don't relay on others to know for you. He is not a child. All that said I am disappointed we will not get to see him win the gold.

 

[lionlover]

Well......it depends what decade you are referring to. I was a teacher for many years. I saw wrestlers wrap themselves in plastic garbage bags and sweat themselves to near passing out. I was told by wrestlers that they took those products you take before a colonoscopy just to empty their colons to make weight. Some of these poor kids looked like ghosts in my class....barely able to sit up. Thankfully most of those methods were basically outlawed by the hydration rules. Currently......it is still a lot of sweating and spitting but far safer than the 70's and 80's. That said.....I also had students that wanted to wrestle up weights who told me they had put lead in their jockstraps to reach the minimum weight to wrestle at 195 or heavyweight. I assume they weren't BSing me

What subject did you teach?

 

[Sportfan2017]

What subject did you teach?

A host of Sciences.....mostly Astronomy ...my favorite.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

A host of Sciences.....mostly Astronomy ...my favorite.

I'm a Pisces. Can you tell me how my day will go tomorrow? Oh, wait.

 

[Sportfan2017]

I'm a Pisces. Can you tell me how my day will go tomorrow? Oh, wait.

You have no idea how many times I have to explain the difference. One makes money.....one costs money

 

[Sportfan2017]

I'm a Pisces. Can you tell me how my day will go tomorrow? Oh, wait.

Hopefully....as bad as you deserve for asking that question

 

[82bordeaux]

I'm a Pisces. Can you tell me how my day will go tomorrow? Oh, wait.

Found this:

Pisces​

Everywhere you go, laughter and comedy ensue. This would be great if you were trying to be funny. You are deeply confused by the idea of sex. As far as you are concerned, if it didn't happen in "The Velveteen Rabbit", it doesn't exist. Piscean women wear long floaty dresses and enormous amounts of unusual silver jewelry. On hikes. Pisceans claim to love the stars, but the only constellation they can find is the Big Dipper. If they cannot find it, they cry. You remember what you were wearing on March 3rd, 1981 but forget your own address. You have no sense of direction. The people you find going in reverse at 70 m.p.h. on the expressway are usually Pisceans. Pisceans are most likely to die by falling out of a window or getting run over by a truck. That is, of course, unless they live with a Cancer. Pisceans are so zoned and perpetually endangered that they can bring out the maternal instincts of a Leo. Don't be fooled, however; many Pisceans can surprise you by kicking your ass and the asses of your four imaginary friends. While Leos tend to achieve the most fame in the field of entertainment, Pisceans strive to achieve historical greatness by sheer fluke. They are proud to tell you that Michelangelo, Galileo, George Washington, and Albert Einstein, none of whom had an agent, were all Pisceans. What they won't tell you is that so is Ted Kennedy. Pisceans claim to want "honest criticism" of their work. Then they commit hara-kiri on the floor when you say you don't like it. Never try to use logic with a Pisces; he or she is living about three feet off of the natural ground or in Narnia. Their tools of debate are non-sequiturs, quotes from Elizabeth Barrett Browning, and, of course, crying. It wouldn't matter what linguistic devices Pisceans use to describe philosophical concepts because they aren't positive they know what they're talking about anyway. You cry over dead animals in the road but feel no remorse about mowing down humans you don't like. Cancerians say one thing and do another. Scorpios say one thing and do it just for spite. Pisceans say far too much and do whatever the hell they want.