Jimmy Gulibon

[manatree]

The Jimmy situation is what is. He may have not reached the levels many fans had in mind but all in all it's been a pleasure being a fan and I'm certainly glad he became a Nittany Lion. I really do hope he goes away knowing his contributions were noticed and appreciated.

I always found it interesting that when an athlete doesn't live up to the expectations of fans, the fans always fault the athlete. They never want to admit that they could ever be at fault when setting their expectations.

Similar thing goes when you see sportswriters write about draft busts. It's always the fault of the player. They never entertain the thought that they overrated the player.

 

[AFHawk86]

Only PSU fans will be debating that.

I'm hoping for chaos and debate by many though because the playoff should be 8 teams.

I've been saying this same thing since the playoff system was released. This isn't any better than the bowl system that was previously in place. There are too many even teams in the top 6 to 8 and too much politics involved to only choose 4. Things drop off, imo, after that.

 

[nitlion6]

I've been saying this same thing since the playoff system was released. This isn't any better than the bowl system that was previously in place. There are too many even teams in the top 6 to 8 and too much politics involved to only choose 4. Things drop off, imo, after that.

I think in the first 2 years it was way better than anything previous to it. The first year worked perfectly. With any previous system ohio st and Oregon would never have played for a championship. Everybody already knew Alabama and Florida St were easily the best teams, hell maybe the 2 best teams of all time. It was gonna be the greatest college football game ever. Turns out everybody was full of crap and neither Alabama nor FSU were the best of their own season let alone of all time.

Put aside all the hyperbole, at the end of the season all we know for some level of certainty is which teams are each conference's best.

Just my opinion, this loses all credibility if a conference champion is not included in exchange for a non champion with an actual loss to the excluded conference champion.

Actually I would argue the Big10 embarrasses itself if it allows the committee to declare the Big10 championship process and crowned champion a not important aspect of determining the proper playoff participants. The Big10 itself will have proclaimed Penn State the best team in the Big10, assuming a victory over Wisconsin.

 

[AFHawk86]

I think in the first 2 years it was way better than anything previous to it. The first year worked perfectly. With any previous system ohio st and Oregon would never have played for a championship. Everybody already knew Alabama and Florida St were easily the best teams, hell maybe the 2 best teams of all time. It was gonna be the greatest college football game ever. Turns out everybody was full of crap and neither Alabama nor FSU were the best of their own season let alone of all time.

Put aside all the hyperbole, at the end of the season all we know for some level of certainty is which teams are each conference's best.

Just my opinion, this loses all credibility if a conference champion is not included in exchange for a non champion with an actual loss to the excluded conference champion.

Actually I would argue the Big10 embarrasses itself if it allows the committee to declare the Big10 championship process and crowned champion a not important aspect of determining the proper playoff participants. The Big10 itself will have proclaimed Penn State the best team in the Big10, assuming a victory over Wisconsin.

tOSU finds itself in the best position of all B1G schools due to it's #2 ranking and the fact that it doesn't have to play in the B1G championship. They face no risk of losing and much less risk for injuries. tOSU is in regardless of what happens between Wisconsin and Penn State. The question is whether a second B1G school is invited to play. With 8 teams there is a good chance that 3 or 4 B1G teams get invited.

 

[Dogwelder]

I always found it interesting that when an athlete doesn't live up to the expectations of fans, the fans always fault the athlete. They never want to admit that they could ever be at fault when setting their expectations.

Similar thing goes when you see sportswriters write about draft busts. It's always the fault of the player. They never entertain the thought that they overrated the player.

This is a great point. Richard Feynman in his most popular book told the story that he had a mental block because he wasn't getting anything done. And his boss had a talk with him and said, in different words, look, we hired you, so the entire risk is on us. You don't worry about disappointing us. We took the risk. It's not on you. It's on us. Somehow, that talk took all the pressure off of Feynman, and soon after, he started doing great things again.

 

[FineMaterial]

I always found it interesting that when an athlete doesn't live up to the expectations of fans, the fans always fault the athlete. They never want to admit that they could ever be at fault when setting their expectations.

Similar thing goes when you see sportswriters write about draft busts. It's always the fault of the player. They never entertain the thought that they overrated the player.

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

 

[RoarLions1]

I always found it interesting that when an athlete doesn't live up to the expectations of fans, the fans always fault the athlete. They never want to admit that they could ever be at fault when setting their expectations.

Similar thing goes when you see sportswriters write about draft busts. It's always the fault of the player. They never entertain the thought that they overrated the player.

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

Sure it applies. Fans go crazy with their expectations, and frankly OUR expectations aren't what matter in the least. There's no guarantee whatsoever, 4-time champ or not. Lots of growing up, and lots of things change after age 18. Jimmy's a fine, fine, young man. That means an awful lot in my book.

 

[PSU Mike]

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

No, he has a really good point that I've tried to make a dozen times over the years regarding football recruiting rankings.

 

[manatree]

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

Just looking at the six 4 time PIAA champs from 1980 to before Jimmy and you will see that only half had stellar careers. Perhaps many fans selectively remember Kolat, Hughes & Hunter while ignoring the others.

Matt Gerhard: 11-6 @ PSU, ??? @ Pitt 0 NCAA, EWL (4, 4)
Ty Moore: 80-31-2, 3 NCAA (DNP, DNP, DNP), ACC (?, 2, 2)
Cary Kolat: 111-7, 4 NCAA (2, 3, 1, 1), BigTen (2, 1) EWL (1, 1), PSAC (1, 1)
John Hughes: 121-26-2, 4 NCAA (DNP, 7, 1, 2), 4 BigTen (3, 3, 1, 5)
Bob Crawford: ???? NCAA (DNP), PSAC (1) (I could only find mention of him wrestling one year for Clarion. Does anyone have more info?)
Jeremy Hunter: 123-7 NCAA (DNP, 5, 2, 1), BigTen (3, 2, 1, 2)

Jimmy Gulibon thus far: 63-38 NCAA (DNP, 5, DNP), BigTen (7, 6, 2)


I chose not to include Jim Conklin, Jerry Maurey & Mike Johnson because in my opinion, Pennsylvania & NCAA wrestling has changed drastically since the 1940s, 50s & 60s. Haines & Marsteller don't figure into the conversation since they came after Jimmy's high school career.

 

[tikk10]

I chose not to include Jim Conklin, Jerry Maurey & Mike Johnson because in my opinion, Pennsylvania & NCAA wrestling has changed drastically since the 1040s, 50s & 60s. Haines & Marsteller don't figure into the conversation since they came after Jimmy's high school career.

Though Haines and Marsteller's careers are still ongoing, thus far Jimmy's is actually shaping up to be better. So they kind of support your original point too.

Btw, AJ Nevills "beat" Haines (both unattached, 285) this past weekend for third place at Mat Town, though it was a medical forfeit, so Haines may have just left early. Not much to read into that "win" but thought I'd pass it along.

 

[El-Jefe]

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

Then how do you explain that zero-time PA state finalist Ed Ruth has only 1 less NCAA title than all of the PA 4xers combined?

 

[dunkej01]

Then how do you explain that zero-time PA state finalist Ed Ruth has only 1 less NCAA title than all of the PA 4xers combined?

Good recruiting?

 

[dicemen99]

Though Haines and Marsteller's careers are still ongoing, thus far Jimmy's is actually shaping up to be better. So they kind of support your original point too.

Btw, AJ Nevills "beat" Haines (both unattached, 285) this past weekend for third place at Mat Town, though it was a medical forfeit, so Haines may have just left early. Not much to read into that "win" but thought I'd pass it along.

Nevills with wins over Michael Rogers (Wyoming Sem/NC State) and Brad Emerick (by fall) there - I believe Emerick is the guy Jan Johnson beat last year in the opening match, right?

 

[El-Jefe]

Good recruiting?

Certainly not good coaching.

 

[Azchief32]

Good recruiting?

Blair Academy?

http://www.pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/read_news.php?id=1045

 

[nitlion6]

Certainly not good coaching.

Isn't Ed the Hawkeye example of blind acorn and squirrel thingy?

 

[RandyL]

so what does this all imply for AJ Nevills.
Is he going to b a 197 guy ?
If so, is he going to be better than his rating coming out of h.s.?

 

[slushhead]

so what does this all imply for AJ Nevills.
Is he going to b a 197 guy ?
If so, is he going to be better than his rating coming out of h.s.?

He will be "given a chance" to be a national champion within 3 years. If he only AAs, he will be cast aside by the fans -- coaches and others in-the-know be damned.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Good recruiting?

Yep, good job Troy.

 

[nitlion6]

Though Haines and Marsteller's careers are still ongoing, thus far Jimmy's is actually shaping up to be better. So they kind of support your original point too.

Btw, AJ Nevills "beat" Haines (both unattached, 285) this past weekend for third place at Mat Town, though it was a medical forfeit, so Haines may have just left early. Not much to read into that "win" but thought I'd pass it along.

Haines and AJ lost in semi-finals, Haines won med ff in consi semi and AJ won a match. No idea what the reason for med ff was. However, since Haines and Marsteller were both mentioned in this thread - Chance won Mat Town 174 pounds with 2 falls, a med ff and in the finals either a regular Dec or MD.

 

[Callthestall]

Just looking at the six 4 time PIAA champs from 1980 to before Jimmy and you will see that only half had stellar careers. Perhaps many fans selectively remember Kolat, Hughes & Hunter while ignoring the others.

Matt Gerhard: 11-6 @ PSU, ??? @ Pitt 0 NCAA, EWL (4, 4)
Ty Moore: 80-31-2, 3 NCAA (DNP, DNP, DNP), ACC (?, 2, 2)
Cary Kolat: 111-7, 4 NCAA (2, 3, 1, 1), BigTen (2, 1) EWL (1, 1), PSAC (1, 1)
John Hughes: 121-26-2, 4 NCAA (DNP, 7, 1, 2), 4 BigTen (3, 3, 1, 5)
Bob Crawford: ???? NCAA (DNP), PSAC (1) (I could only find mention of him wrestling one year for Clarion. Does anyone have more info?)
Jeremy Hunter: 123-7 NCAA (DNP, 5, 2, 1), BigTen (3, 2, 1, 2)

Jimmy Gulibon thus far: 63-38 NCAA (DNP, 5, DNP), BigTen (7, 6, 2)


I chose not to include Jim Conklin, Jerry Maurey & Mike Johnson because in my opinion, Pennsylvania & NCAA wrestling has changed drastically since the 1940s, 50s & 60s. Haines & Marsteller don't figure into the conversation since they came after Jimmy's high school career.

 

[Callthestall]

Crawford was from Milton, originally went to Bucknell and then transferred out. I believe he lost his first high school match and did not lose until his senior year at regionals to Tashner from Nazareth. Most fun match I ever watched in person. Crawford's PIAA championships were like Gulibon, he won 2 AA and 2 AAA. He was tall and thin and very slippery to score on. I Never looked at him as a potential college star, he just didn't dominate enough against the good strong high school opponent.

 

[jrd23psu]

Haines and AJ lost in semi-finals, Haines won med ff in consi semi and AJ won a match. No idea what the reason for med ff was. However, since Haines and Marsteller were both mentioned in this thread - Chance won Mat Town 174 pounds with 2 falls, a med ff and in the finals either a regular Dec or MD.

Chance is wrestling this year? I thought he was dismissed from the Lockhaven team after what happened a few months back? I'm really rooting for him to turn his life around. If he's on the team, hopefully the kind of routine you need to go through to be a wrestler will help him stay on the right track

 

[manatree]

Chance is wrestling this year? I thought he was dismissed from the Lockhaven team after what happened a few months back? I'm really rooting for him to turn his life around. If he's on the team, hopefully the kind of routine you need to go through to be a wrestler will help him stay on the right track

It's the Mat Town Open. Unless his dismissal included banning him from setting foot on campus, he can pay the fee and compete like any other unattached wrestler.

 

[horraybeer]

Crawford was from Milton, originally went to Bucknell and then transferred out. I believe he lost his first high school match and did not lose until his senior year at regionals to Tashner from Nazareth. Most fun match I ever watched in person. Crawford's PIAA championships were like Gulibon, he won 2 AA and 2 AAA. He was tall and thin and very slippery to score on. I Never looked at him as a potential college star, he just didn't dominate enough against the good strong high school opponent.

That same year crawford wrestled laudenslager in the semi's. Laudenslager tossed Crawford around like a rag doll was up 10+ and had crawford pinned (ref would not call it.) Then crawford did his thing and won the match. Crawford, Tashner, Laudenslager finished 1,2,3 at states.

 

[El-Jefe]

Crawford wrestled for Clarion as a true freshman.

 

[FineMaterial]

Sure it applies. Fans go crazy with their expectations, and frankly OUR expectations aren't what matter in the least. There's no guarantee whatsoever, 4-time champ or not. Lots of growing up, and lots of things change after age 18. Jimmy's a fine, fine, young man. That means an awful lot in my book.

Of course it applies. Manatee's post implied that expectations are wrong because of wrong ratings. Ratings can be wrong on any individual wrestler, especially Jimmy. High ratings for any 4x PA state champ are not unreasonable. They may be wrong but they are not unreasonable. Any Penn State fan who expected JG to do well in NCAAs is reasonable and should not be called out as having wrong expectations.

 

[dunkej01]

That same year crawford wrestled laudenslager in the semi's. Laudenslager tossed Crawford around like a rag doll was up 10+ and had crawford pinned (ref would not call it.) Then crawford did his thing and won the match. Crawford, Tashner, Laudenslager finished 1,2,3 at states.

Crawford has a son who im told is as good or better than bob was at the same age.

Watched him go a couple years ago in a youth dual tournament and was impressed.

I think he is in Jr high now but not sure on that.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Of course it applies. Manatee's post implied that expectations are wrong because of wrong ratings. Ratings can be wrong on any individual wrestler, especially Jimmy. High ratings for any 4x PA state champ are not unreasonable. They may be wrong but they are not unreasonable. Any Penn State fan who expected JG to do well in NCAAs is reasonable and should not be called out as having wrong expectations.

My expectation of any wrestler that comes to PSU is that they give 100% effort for not only wrestling, but schoolwork, and their personal lives. If they do that any accomplishments they make on the mat are just gravy.

 

[manatree]

A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate. Situation does not apply.

Of course it applies. Manatee's post implied that expectations are wrong because of wrong ratings. Ratings can be wrong on any individual wrestler, especially Jimmy. High ratings for any 4x PA state champ are not unreasonable. They may be wrong but they are not unreasonable. Any Penn State fan who expected JG to do well in NCAAs is reasonable and should not be called out as having wrong expectations.

You stated that "A 4x State champ from PA is hard to overrate." and "Any Penn State fan who expected JG to do well in NCAAs is reasonable and should not be called out as having wrong expectations."

Considering the track records for the 4xPIAA champs at the NCAA's, I'd say that it is very easy to overrate a 4x State champ from PA. For every Kolat there is a Gerhard. To date, Jimmy has had more success at the NCAAs than Ty Moore did.

There can be many reasons why an athlete does not live up to expectations. Not all of those reasons are the fault of the athlete, and sometimes, faulty expectations is a reason.

 

[nitlion6]

Expecting a 4X PIAA champion to do well in college is not unreasonable. The percentage of 4 timers who have achieved is high compared to 1 timers or 2 timers or non timers. I did not include 3 timers due to uncertainty, but my guess is Nico is an exception and not the rule.

What I find less than acceptable is the nastiness fans spew towards the 18 to 23 year olds who maybe did not reach what was a flawed perception of that kid's potential.

 

[horraybeer]

Crawford has a son who im told is as good or better than bob was at the same age.

Watched him go a couple years ago in a youth dual tournament and was impressed.

I think he is in Jr high now but not sure on that.

Crawford had such an unusual style, he would get thrown to his back and he had the advantage. lol I started wrestling at 5 and wrestled in college and Bob Crawford was the most unique and entertaining wrestler I ever had the pleasure of watching. Wish his son the best, if he has half the talent he will be special.

 

[manatree]

Expecting a 4X PIAA champion to do well in college is not unreasonable. The percentage of 4 timers who have achieved is high compared to 1 timers or 2 timers or non timers. I did not include 3 timers due to uncertainty, but my guess is Nico is an exception and not the rule.

What I find less than acceptable is the nastiness fans spew towards the 18 to 23 year olds who maybe did not reach what was a flawed perception of that kid's potential.

I guess it all comes down to how one defines 'do well in college.' Is qualifying for 3 national tourney's in three years doing well? Or is anything less than dominating your weight class not doing well?

 

[manatree]

Just off the top of my head, Ed Ruth, Carlton Haselrig, Ricky Bonomo & Nate Carr each won three NCAA DI titles, yet only won three PIAA titles between the four.

 

[El-Jefe]

Just off the top of my head, Ed Ruth, Carlton Haselrig, Ricky Bonomo & Nate Carr each won three NCAA DI titles, yet only won three PIAA titles between the four.

Phil Davis.

On the other side, Chris Kwortnik and Tom Best never reached an NCAA final. (Possible neither reached the podium, I'm too lazy to look that up on vacation.)

 

[royboy]

Crawford has a son who im told is as good or better than bob was at the same age.

Watched him go a couple years ago in a youth dual tournament and was impressed.

I think he is in Jr high now but not sure on that.

Nice tip. High school -- Milton? other District IV?

 

[horraybeer]

Phil Davis.

On the other side, Chris Kwortnik and Tom Best never reached an NCAA final. (Possible neither reached the podium, I'm too lazy to look that up on vacation.)

Kwortnik, 3x aa.

 

[royboy]

Phil Davis.

On the other side, Chris Kwortnik and Tom Best never reached an NCAA final. (Possible neither reached the podium, I'm too lazy to look that up on vacation.)

Kwortnik was 7th at 167 in 1992 (Charlie Jones of Purdue was champ and Dave Hart of PSU 4th), 6th in 1991, and 5th in 1993 (Dave Hart 2nd)

http://nwhof.org/NCAA-Brackets/PDF/NCAA 1993.pdf
Link to 1993 NCAA -- PSU 2nd as team and lots of familiar names, esp. in lower weights

 

[Callthestall]

Kwortnik was 7th at 167 in 1992 (Charlie Jones of Purdue was champ and Dave Hart of PSU 4th), 6th in 1991, and 5th in 1993 (Dave Hart 2nd)

http://nwhof.org/NCAA-Brackets/PDF/NCAA 1993.pdf
Link to 1993 NCAA -- PSU 2nd as team and lots of familiar names, esp. in lower weights

I saw Kwortnik in1989 destroy undeafeted Kevin Smith from Northampton in the State Finals. He was brutal on top, I thought he was going to pull Smith's arms out of his sockets working armbars .If Smith's coach, Don Rohn was a boxing corner man he would of thrown the towel in. Kwortnik wasn't great on his feet but you didn't want to be under him.

 

[nitlion6]

Just off the top of my head, Ed Ruth, Carlton Haselrig, Ricky Bonomo & Nate Carr each won three NCAA DI titles, yet only won three PIAA titles between the four.

In reality, you never really know where the truly elite are going to show up from.

Phil Davis was mentioned immediately after this post of manatree's. What was the story, Troy ran into Phil someplace and left an impression. Phil's high school senior year he simply looked like a great athlete that wasn't interested in being in shape. Once he found his lungs. James Yonushonis told me Davis was just a freak of nature. James told a story of three Lions ganging up on Phil and Phil would toss all three around like he was playing with dolls.