Let's get real about Franklin

PSUSignore

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I see the main problem with Franklins recruiting is the lack of highly ranked DT's, he gets a few but not many. He is getting highly ranked OL. I think if he hired the right person, like a Larry Johnson type that make those defensive tackles want to come here. We need some defensive tackles that can take over a game like Jared Odrick, or Jordan Hill did.
Who is the next "Larry Johnson type?" BTW, LJ is the highest paid DL coach in the country making over $1M a year. Does PSU have the budget for a position coach to make that much? Historically we haven't.
 

bono47

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Jan 4, 2003
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James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is.

A winner has his team add to the lead it already had with 8 minutes left in the game at home and actually win a damn game based on scheme when he has lesser talent. Not blow it yet again like he has at least greater than 10 times now.

This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters of consistent football or who cannot overcome adversity. His teams crumble like cardboard in a rain storm regardless of the players, opponent, or location. The dude just doesn't have "it" and never will. The verdict is in. How many more years are needed?
 

ryoder1

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James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is.

A winner has his team add to the lead it already had with 8 minutes left in the game at home and actually win a damn game based on scheme when he has lesser talent. Not blow it yet again like he has at least greater than 10 times now.

This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters of consistent football or who cannot overcome adversity. His teams crumble like cardboard in a rain storm regardless of the players, opponent, or location. The dude just doesn't have "it" and never will. The verdict is in. How many more years are needed?
It is looking that way but he ain't going anywhere and we got him. Yhe question I have is Why? Why do we crumble under pressure in big games against top 10 teams? How do you instill a winning culture?
 

john4psu

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Sep 7, 2003
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Actually it is his fault because in his 9th year at the helm he still hasn’t been able to develop a B10 level O line nor a D line that can get pressure on the QB vs upper level competition

I won’t get into his Clifford obsession as that has been discussed extensively here
You do know the players change, graduate, etc., right? So it's not like his OL and DL players are in their ninth-year of eligibility.
 

bono47

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You do know the players change, graduate, etc., right? So it's not like his OL and DL players are in their ninth-year of eligibility.
The bigger question is why are the results the same regardless of the players or assistant coaches/coordinators over a number of years? What is the common denominator?

It is like when you were in grade school and the same kid keeps showing up in the principal's office under a different circumstance or fight, "But Mr. Smith, it really wasn't my fault this time!"
 

PSU2UNC

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Feb 9, 2016
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James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is.

A winner has his team add to the lead it already had with 8 minutes left in the game at home and actually win a damn game based on scheme when he has lesser talent. Not blow it yet again like he has at least greater than 10 times now.

This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters of consistent football or who cannot overcome adversity. His teams crumble like cardboard in a rain storm regardless of the players, opponent, or location. The dude just doesn't have "it" and never will. The verdict is in. How many more years are needed?
Did they crumble in the 4Q against:

2016 OSU
2016 Wisconsin
2017 Iowa
2018 Iowa
2019 Iowa
2019 Michigan
2021 Wisconsin
2021 Auburn
2022 Purdue

No coach (none, zero) wins every close game in the 4Q especially when they are the underdog.

Expecting your coach to do so is not only unrealistic, but quite frankly suggests an ignorance of the sport.
 
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PSU2UNC

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The bigger question is why are the results the same regardless of the players or assistant coaches/coordinators over a number of years? What is the common denominator?

It is like when you were in grade school and the same kid keeps showing up in the principal's office under a different circumstance or fight, "But Mr. Smith, it really wasn't my fault this time!"
The common denominator is : football is hard and full of uncertainty.
 

heckmans

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Feb 13, 2006
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I think Franklin tells it how it is. Some seem uncomfortable with that. But I’m guessing he’s much more in the know with why he loses some recruits to other schools than those of us posting to this message board. PSU football makes ALOT of $$$ for the athletic department and the region. If it’s head coach says he needs something to go from a top 10-15 program to a top 5 program, I say give it to him. If he gets it and the AD doesn’t see additional W’s, then it’ll be in place for the next HC.

What if that thing is a coach who can actually coach football? What then?
 
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Parkerdam555

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James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is.

A winner has his team add to the lead it already had with 8 minutes left in the game at home and actually win a damn game based on scheme when he has lesser talent. Not blow it yet again like he has at least greater than 10 times now.

This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters of consistent football or who cannot overcome adversity. His teams crumble like cardboard in a rain storm regardless of the players, opponent, or location. The dude just doesn't have "it" and never will. The verdict is in. How many more years are needed?
Be careful! The coach mafia will attack ! Lol
 

bono47

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Jan 4, 2003
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Did they crumble in the 4Q against:

2016 OSU
2016 Wisconsin
2017 Iowa
2018 Iowa
2019 Iowa
2019 Michigan
2021 Wisconsin
2021 Auburn
2022 Purdue

No coach (none, zero) wins every close game in the 4Q especially when they are the underdog.

Expecting your coach to do so is not only unrealistic, but quite frankly suggests an ignorance of the sport.
How many of these wins were against Top 10 teams?
 

PSU2UNC

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How many of these wins were against Top 10 teams?
That wasn't what you said, but keep moving the goalposts.
"This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters"
 

bono47

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That wasn't what you said, but keep moving the goalposts.
"This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters"
I'm not moving any goalposts. The first paragraph of my original statement, to which you responded, is, as follows:

"James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is."

You quote my last thought which was stated in the context of my opening comment.

His teams collapse in games that matter. He isn't getting paid millions to hold onto 4th quarter leads against Rutgers. He is getting paid to beat the OSUs, scUMs, USCs, etc. of the world and he fails in the same fashion over and over and over and over.

Holding onto a lead against a team you out-talent 3 to 1 isn't mentally tough. Holding onto a lead this Saturday requires mental fortitude. Every time Franklin's teams are in this scenario they poop their pants.
 
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ryoder1

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That wasn't what you said, but keep moving the goalposts.
"This guy's coaching creates mentally weak or soft teams who simply cannot play 4 quarters"
Here's the problem. He basically never pulls out a win against a top 10 team when an underdog or even as a favorite. O$U in '16 and what else? I will give you that it is very difficult to do so and clearly not expecting him to win all of them as an underdog or even half but maybe a third or a quarter of them? His teams' performance record is unusually poor in these games and below what you would expect a reasonable performance metric to be.

He has had some near big wins of late like Iowa in '17, '18 and '19, Wisky in '21 and Purdue this year.
 

PSU2UNC

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I'm not moving any goalposts. The first paragraph of my original statement, to which you responded, is, as follows:

"James Franklin just coached another team to a 4th quarter collapse against a top 10 opponent. It is who he is."

You quote my last thought which was stated in the context of my opening comment.

His teams collapse in games that matter. He isn't getting paid millions to hold onto 4th quarter leads against Rutgers. He is getting paid to beat the OSUs, scUMs, USCs, etc. of the world and he fails in the same fashion over and over and over and over.

Holding onto a lead against a team you out-talent 3 to 1 isn't mentally tough. Holding onto a lead this Saturday requires mental fortitude. Every time Franklin's teams are in this scenario they poop their pants.
He is paid to win games. He wins a lot of games. Full stop.
 
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psu00

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How many of these wins were against Top 10 teams?

Team, rank when played, final rank, record
(NR- not ranked)

2016 OSU - #2, #6, 11-2
2016 Wisky- #6, #9, 11-3
2017 Iowa- NR, NR, 8-5
2018 Iowa- NR, #25/NR, 9-4
2019 Iowa- #17/18, #15, 10-3
2019 Michigan- #16, #18/19, 9-4
2021 Wisky- #18/17, NR, 9-4
2021 Auburn- #23, NR, 6-7
2022 Purdue- NR, currently 5-3

So, only 2 top 10 teams- both 6 years ago.

Considering 2017 Iowa, 2021 Wisky, 2021 Auburn were not ranked at the end of the year and 2018 Iowa was only #25 in 1 poll and not ranked in the other, I’d hardly put them up in the annals of big wins.
 
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SR108

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It's one thing to slam him and/or to believe the lucrative contract extension was a huge mistake.

I mean, I don't subscribe to the most fevered criticism of the guy, but after being a big fan of his hire and performance through 2019, my confidence has been shaken a bit the last couple years, and I do understand why a lot of fans are quite unhappy with him. I also think the long-term extension of his contract with the prohibitive buy-out was a big mistake and seemed like an unnecessarily panicked reaction on the part of the administration.

But all that said, the idea, which many appear to have, that there's any chance in hell he'll be fired, is delusional. Hell, it's almost as delusional as me picking Penn State to beat the Bucks yesterday. Franklin's not going anywhere unless he chooses to go, but if it makes people feel better to pretend otherwise, well, it's a free country.
I actually think he could be on a semi hot seat next year. There will be a lot of really good young players returning. Expectations will be high.
 

PSU2UNC

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Team, rank when played, final rank, record
(NR- not ranked)

2016 OSU - #2, #6, 11-2
2016 Wisky- #6, #9, 11-3
2017 Iowa- NR, NR, 8-5
2018 Iowa- NR, #25/NR, 9-4
2019 Iowa- #17/18, #15, 10-3
2019 Michigan- #16, #18/19, 9-4
2021 Wisky- #18/17, NR, 9-4
2021 Auburn- #23, NR, 6-7
2022 Purdue- NR, currently 5-3

So, only 2 top 10 teams- both 6 years ago.

Considering 2017 Iowa, 2021 Wisky, 2021 Auburn were not ranked at the end of the year and 2018 Iowa was only #25 in 1 poll and not ranked in the other, I’d hardly put them up in the annals of big wins.
They were games decided in the fourth quarter. The assertion was that Franklin's teams NEVER play a full 4Q. Clearly wrong.
 

psu00

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I actually think he could be on a semi hot seat next year. There will be a lot of really good young players returning. Expectations will be high.
Expectations will be high by many, especially in August. However, the minute they lose to Ohio St and Michigan many of those same posters will start the “no one really expected us to win this year” mantra that gets repeated year after year after year….. ;)
 
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PSU2UNC

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Jerry

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Team, rank when played, final rank, record
(NR- not ranked)

2016 OSU - #2, #6, 11-2
2016 Wisky- #6, #9, 11-3
2017 Iowa- NR, NR, 8-5
2018 Iowa- NR, #25/NR, 9-4
2019 Iowa- #17/18, #15, 10-3
2019 Michigan- #16, #18/19, 9-4
2021 Wisky- #18/17, NR, 9-4
2021 Auburn- #23, NR, 6-7
2022 Purdue- NR, currently 5-3

So, only 2 top 10 teams- both 6 years ago.

Considering 2017 Iowa, 2021 Wisky, 2021 Auburn were not ranked at the end of the year and 2018 Iowa was only #25 in 1 poll and not ranked in the other, I’d hardly put them up in the annals of big wins.

Thanks, that's good information.

In fairness, it's hard to beat a top-10 team...especially a team whose final rank is in the top-10.

The link below shows the historical record in that regard, and Oklahoma is on top with only a 40% win ratio against that level of competition while Alabama and Ohio State are at a paltry 30%. (Penn State ranks 20th all-time at 18%.)

If you change the criteria to wins against top-10 teams as they were ranked at the time of the game, Paterno scores 43%. See second link.

This makes Franklin's 2016 record all the more impressive. After that, however, it gets pretty grim. In fact, I'm not sure we've ever fully recovered from those two heartbreakers to Ohio State in 2017 and 2018, losing by one point in both games after holding 4th-quarter leads. Those were defining games.

But all that is water over the dam. These next four games could be defining too in a way. We need to win them and go from there.


 
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crm114psu

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I haven't read his contract. Have you???
Never said I did. You act as though you are very familiar with it.

You haven't read his contract yet you make definitive statements about details concerning how it ties compensation to performance.

"paid to win games" is the phrase I believe you used.
 

PSU2UNC

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Never said I did. You act as though you are very familiar with it.

You haven't read his contract yet you make definitive statements about details concerning how it ties compensation to performance.

"paid to win games" is the phrase I believe you used.
You are a moron.
 

crm114psu

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You are a moron.
Perhaps you might be right, no doubt some would agree.

That does not change the fact that you are wrong once again. And as you tell us, you always admit when you are wrong and apologize, even though it is extremely rare according to you. We've seen you make such errors on a regular basis yet I cannot find one instance of you saying "I was wrong" or anything remotely similar.

Please point out that "paid to win games" clause in his contract. You did say that he was "paid to win games", right? That really isn't true is it?
 

KCLion

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They were games decided in the fourth quarter. The assertion was that Franklin's teams NEVER play a full 4Q. Clearly wrong.
Are you really going to parse that post? It was clear in full context.

In your brilliant smarter than everybody else mind, you were correct. But everyone not as smart as you understood the context of his post.
 

DUNNELLONFLBUCK

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Similar to my thoughts. Feel like he was a great hire, had us getting there and then a step back. We are moving back in that direction again.

Realistically we aren't getting over the hump until we can recruit near Ohio St's level. The rest of the league combined has less talent on the field than Ohio St. So their coaching can underperform as they have for the last 5 years or so but they can still dominate the conference. They've lost a lot of games that they had no business losing like getting blown out by Purdue a couple of years ago. But what's worse is they've repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot legitimately compete in the playoffs despite having equal talent to Alabama and Georgia.

That said, it’s enough of a talent differential that only PSU or Michigan have a chance at winning the BIG10 every few years and everyone else only once in blue moon.

Interestingly, minus 4 turnovers, we were better than them on Saturday. We had more yards and if we played cleaner, that was a W. Our talent level should not have allowed us to be there but Day had a terrible game plan. We actually outcoached Ohio St despite our fans criticism. Just like Harbaugh outcoached Day last year and so did Oregon.
Yeah but how do you feel about Julian Fleming?
 

bono47

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They were games decided in the fourth quarter. The assertion was that Franklin's teams NEVER play a full 4Q. Clearly wrong.
That was not my assertion. My assertion was his teams shit the bed against top 10 opponents in 4th when it matters.
 

heckmans

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It is not obvious at all. CJF is a great all around coach.

He does everything great - recruiting, politicking, relationship building - except actual football coaching. This is an observable fact. JFs record against teams with similar talent is pretty bad. As a football coach, JF is Steve Spurrier. Wins a lot of games on talent, and might get over the hump one year, but will lose the big game against similar talent every year.
 
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Gitzit

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Who is the next "Larry Johnson type?" BTW, LJ is the highest paid DL coach in the country making over $1M a year. Does PSU have the budget for a position coach to make that much? Historically we haven't.
I don't know, I'm not getting paid 8 million dollars per year to go find one. I'm sure there is one out there and it wouldn't cost 1 million. Maybe an ex Penn State lineman. Maybe LaVar
 

dbsteel

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The only reason Franklin would leave is his ego and thinking he could win at another program. Probably in the SEC. But the way he's going, I think programs actually think less of him than they used to.
 
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SR108

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Expectations will be high by many, especially in August. However, the minute they lose to Ohio St and Michigan many of those same posters will start the “no one really expected us to win this year” mantra that gets repeated year after year after year….. ;)
I can live with 10-2 this year with a New Years 6 Bowl win if that happens. (Still possible losses vs Maryland and/or MSU IMO ) (My expectations after last year for this year were much lower)

If 10-2 and a bowl win does happen, expectations will be much higher for next year, including wins over Michigan and Ohio State, (especially with a 5 star QB)

The question will be if that does not happen, are the powers at be happy with coming in third every year or so?

I suspect Franklin's real threat will eventually be former PSU players, not necessarily his former players, who believe that PSU should win championships and be competitive at the playoff level.
 
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