Let's get real about Franklin

scrivener

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You realize Parsons played almost equal snaps as a true freshman as the 4 star senior ahead of him when he came in? Then he started as a sophomore and became top draft pick.

That's your example of bad player management against Ohio St running off a future Heisman number 1 overall draft pick and then following that up by running off a future #12 overall and 1st team all American both of whom won national titles?
Running off? OSU had Fields and now Stroud. Ok, I'm done debating this. If you really think OSU has done a poor job managing their over abundance of talent, fine. If only PSU had that problem.
 

bono47

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You are incredibly wrong here.

I use Vegas (not because they are the be all end all, but they are the only widely available predictor, based on market forces, of who is predicted to win a game; you can go to SP+ if you like to be more quantitative, but I suspect the results of the analysis would be the same).

You flirt with saying something meaningful here: "recruits do not always pan out" which is half of the equation. The other half is "sometimes recruits are better than expected". So while PSU is not likely to outcompete OSU on the recruiting trail in terms of stars (although they are closer than they have ever been THANKS TO FRANKLIN), they could field a better team from time to time. But the overall point is that no one should expect PSU to win games when they are outmatched. Sometimes they will, but to expect them to be .500 against top 10 teams is just absurd.

"Dabo got Clemson over the hump"
Dabo had a series of elite QBs and a defensive coordinator (and insane support staff) who loved stealing signs. Note that he has come back to earth slightly (still benefitting from the ACC being incredibly weak).

"Harbaugh got Mich over the hump,"
To quote Brant "Goody" Goodleaf "Settle down." They've had 1.5 good years in recent memory. We will see if this is sustainable. Also recall how mediocre Michigan was (under Harbaugh) until last year. Zero reason that PSU can't do the same thing.
You state, "Sometimes they will, but to expect them to be .500 against top 10 teams is just absurd."

Facts reveal Franklin simply has not since 2016. There has not been a "sometimes". Sometimes was this past Saturday, or 2017 or 2018 or last year vs Michigan. That is the issue. O wins in these top 10 games. O wins versus OSU. O wins vs Michigan when scUM was rated top 10.

We have had massive collapses, though, over and over and over again through several years with different players and staff against various opponents who were top 10, which at least, in my mind reveals a major issue at the top, the only constant. So the one constant who is getting paid a king's ransom to win the games that matter isn't getting it done, period. How large of a body of evidence does one need to see it? Does he need to shit his pants against OSU for 5 more years? Does he need to get taken to the woodshed on the road at Michigan 4 more times?
 

NOVABuck45

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That is underperforming, due to poor coaching, and should be embarrassing for a team of mostly 5 star and high 4 star recruits. And it's hurting the rest of the conference that they can't close the deal against teams with similar talent in the playoffs.

LOL!!!

This is one of the most hilarious attempts to troll Ohio State that I've seen -- and believe me, we get a lot.

I mean, I feel absolutely awful about how we're hurting the conference through our terrible play. We should have beat Clemson by 40, not merely by the 21 that we did.

On behalf of Buckeye Nation, I apologize to you and all other Big Ten fans for the embarrassment that we've brought upon you. It's just terrible. Our coaches are terrible. I truly wish we were able to utilize our talent the way Texas, Texas A&M, Miami, USC, Florida, and others have. It's shameful!

We've gone 125-13 over the past 10 years, but those 13 losses are embarrassing. It sucks to suck :(

Again, I really am sorry. You, @Online Persona , deserve so much better. You've done your part. Now we need to do ours. We need to finally start winning (more) playoff games. You know, like you have.
 

NOVABuck45

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Running off? OSU had Fields and now Stroud. Ok, I'm done debating this. If you really think OSU has done a poor job managing their over abundance of talent, fine. If only PSU had that problem.

I mean, it's not even accurate. Jameson Williams didn't win a national championship, and the staff desperately wanted Joe Burrow to stay. But he broke his hand, fell behind Haskins on the depth chart, and went to LSU where he knew he'd be able to start. We had to settle for Haskins and Fields.

I can appreciate good trolling when I see it. But if this guy is trying to be serious, he needs to work on the factual part of his arguments.
 

scrivener

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I mean, it's not even accurate. Jameson Williams didn't win a national championship, and the staff desperately wanted Joe Burrow to stay. But he broke his hand, fell behind Haskins on the depth chart, and went to LSU where he knew he'd be able to start. We had to settle for Haskins and Fields.

I can appreciate good trolling when I see it. But if this guy is trying to be serious, he needs to work on the factual part of his arguments.
He's ridiculous...and every fanbase's message boards have these type of people, it's not unique to psu lol. If only PSU could have the problem to 'settle' for QB's like that.
 
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NOVABuck45

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He's ridiculous...and every fanbase's message boards have these type of people, it's not unique to psu lol. If only PSU could have the problem to 'settle' for QB's like that.

Yep, we have legions of morons that don the scarlet and gray on social media. Knives always sharpened and pitchforks at the ready.

Gotta love it.
 

PSU2UNC

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You state, "Sometimes they will, but to expect them to be .500 against top 10 teams is just absurd."

Facts reveal Franklin simply has not since 2016. There has not been a "sometimes". Sometimes was this past Saturday, or 2017 or 2018 or last year vs Michigan. That is the issue. O wins in these top 10 games. O wins versus OSU. O wins vs Michigan when scUM was rated top 10.

We have had massive collapses, though, over and over and over again through several years with different players and staff against various opponents who were top 10, which at least, in my mind reveals a major issue at the top, the only constant. So the one constant who is getting paid a king's ransom to win the games that matter isn't getting it done, period. How large of a body of evidence does one need to see it? Does he need to shit his pants against OSU for 5 more years? Does he need to get taken to the woodshed on the road at Michigan 4 more times?
Who would you hire? Criteria:

1) Must be a realistic hire (i.e. someone who is not currently a head coach, is likely to be fired or could be lured away from a lesser job with $$$)

2) Must have a track record of "Success with Honor" (like Franklin and his predecessors)

3) Someone who meets your (unrealistic) criteria of consistently winning games against top 10 teams when you are not favored to do so.

4) Someone who has a similar floor (bowl team) as Franklin.

That's gotta be a pretty short list. I'll anxiously await your reply.

(this is another way of saying, when your head coach isn't perfect (none are) you look at who he could reasonably be replaced with who would definitely be better. You like to shit all over Franklin but you have no realistic alternative)
 

ryoder1

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Over the past 10 years, OSU's average recruiting class is 4.6.

Over the past 10 years, OSU's average final poll ranking is 4.5.

I'd say we're right where we should be based on the talent we're getting.

But if it helps you sleep at night to take comfort in our "underachieving", you do that :) I'll continue to enjoy our consistent top-5 success with the occasional natty. I'm okay admitting that we're not at Saban's level. If that's your burn against us........okay, boss.
So if you don't win a NC in the next 5 years are you a happy fan or do you think you have under achieved? I am not sure you have ever or will ever be the #1 recruiting team so does that mean you are good with not ever winning the NC?
 

NOVABuck45

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So if you don't win a NC in the next 5 years are you a happy fan or do you think you have under achieved? I am not sure you have ever or will ever be the #1 recruiting team so does that mean you are good with not ever winning the NC?

Me personally?

My expectation is a natty roughly every 10 years. At least while Saban is still in peak form. Are we capable of winning more than that? Yes. But I'm also realistic enough to recognize that the talent that Alabama and Georgia in particular get along their lines -- mixed with the elite defensive and ground-game talent that resides in the south -- will make beating them pretty tough on any given year. We are in the conversation every year; it takes the right combination of factors to get to #1. We had it in 2014. I thought we had it in 2019. We'll see if we have it this year. I think we should at least play for a title every 3-5 years.
 

PSUSIR

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Don’t sleep on Eddie Munster. He is a top coach…and a top recruiter.

Want to beat him? Recruit some players to Happy Valley that are on par with O$U. Recruiting is part of the job. Franklin gets paid for the entire job (and he is worse at in game coaching than recruiting).

He needs to go.
When after umteen years as head coach he is still screaming, "we have to get bigger", all I can say is, what? Who is the general?
 
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MacNit07

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Your overall point is asinine. When you play a top 10 team as an underdog (especially a 2 score+ underdog) there should be no expectation to win. It's not as if PSU was favored against OSU and UM and pooped the bed. The were expected to lose and did (in one case covering the spread and the other case not).

So the metric of "record against top ten teams" is BS to start with.

A more interesting stat (which I haven't seen) would be record in games in which you were a <1 score underdog. That would give you a better sense of realistic performance above expectations (which is a better metric of coaching acumen).

But keeping parroting easily accessible stats that support your horrible point.

So to answer you question, yes, I am very happy with Coach Franklin (as should be anyone who understand college football).
Recruit better players and you will not be double digit underdogs to anyone.
 

ryoder1

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Me personally?

My expectation is a natty roughly every 10 years. At least while Saban is still in peak form. Are we capable of winning more than that? Yes. But I'm also realistic enough to recognize that the talent that Alabama and Georgia in particular get along their lines -- mixed with the elite defensive and ground-game talent that resides in the south -- will make beating them pretty tough on any given year. We are in the conversation every year; it takes the right combination of factors to get to #1. We had it in 2014. I thought we had it in 2019. We'll see if we have it this year. I think we should at least play for a title every 3-5 years.
Wow, not expecting much. Every 10 years? You rival Bama and Georgia in recruiting. I know you rationalize that you are well below them in recruiting to make you feel good but not by much and not enough to cause you to lose to them 9 out of 10 years in a playoff. Nevertheless I guess if we get to 2027 and you have not won since 2014 you will be disappointed or do you chalk it up to Bama, Georgia, Clemson whomever having better talent?
 

NOVABuck45

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Wow, not expecting much. Every 10 years? You rival Bama and Georgia in recruiting. I know you rationalize that you are well below them in recruiting to make you feel good but not by much and not enough to cause you to lose to them 9 out of 10 years in a playoff. Nevertheless I guess if we get to 2027 and you have not won since 2014 you will be disappointed or do you chalk it up to Bama, Georgia, Clemson whomever having better talent?

Well, I guess I could bitch and moan online about how I'm entitled to titles more frequently. But for comparison's sake, Penn State, Michigan, and Notre Dame have 0 titles combined in the BCS era. Oklahoma hasn't won a title in 21 years. Texas has 1 title in 50 years. Saban is the greatest of all time, and as long as he's dominating the sport -- and I think Kirby Smart is the clear #2 and has a chance to pull off a big time run -- I'm realistic in knowing that titles won't come easily for anybody, even teams with top-3 recruiting classes.

Kirby Smart has recruited as well as anybody for the past 6 years and just won his first title last year -- and probably wouldn't have done so had Bama's 2 stud WRs not blown ACLs. Ryan Day will probably get the same treatment that Kirby got if he doesn't win a title in the next 3-4 years, but until then I'm not worried. He's a class guy that wins 90+% of his games and has us in the title mix. If fans on opposing boards get their jollies because we're not winning as much as Bama, good for them?

Go ask Texas fans whether elite talent guarantees success. Or Kentucky basketball fans for that matter. 1 title this century for a program that has the #1 recruiting classes many/most years.
 
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scrivener

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It's hysterical if you think Franklin doesn't recruit well.
He has been a tremendous recruiter in certain positions -- as evidenced by the amount of NFL players he's put out. However, DL, especially, he has yet to have that transformative player that can totally win a game and be menace. He doesn't develop the heavies well, on the OL included...and yes, I'm aware of Olu...that is 1/5 guys at a position. The rest are mid. If JF can have an uptick at the LOS, especially on defense and not just excel at recruiting athletes, that should put us over the top.
 

PSU2UNC

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He has been a tremendous recruiter in certain positions -- as evidenced by the amount of NFL players he's put out. However, DL, especially, he has yet to have that transformative player that can totally win a game and be menace. He doesn't develop the heavies well, on the OL included...and yes, I'm aware of Olu...that is 1/5 guys at a position. The rest are mid. If JF can have an uptick at the LOS, especially on defense and not just excel at recruiting athletes, that should put us over the top.
PSU appears to have at 5 DL (4 starters) in the NFL right now. I think that at least partially disproves your statement (and this is not counting hybrid rush ends/LB that played DL at PSU)

Finding absolute game wreckers (e.g. Chase Young) is difficult and they don't exist in every draft class.
 

scrivener

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PSU appears to have at 5 DL (4 starters) in the NFL right now. I think that at least partially disproves your statement (and this is not counting hybrid rush ends/LB that played DL at PSU)

Finding absolute game wreckers (e.g. Chase Young) is difficult and they don't exist in every draft class.
I said transformative DL guys...none of those in the NFL were dominant players like what we saw from OSU, Michigan last yr, etc. True...they are very hard to find. But, to be elite, u have to get'em...or at least develop the guys u have into them, if possible.
 

PSU2UNC

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I said transformative DL guys...none of those in the NFL were dominant players like what we saw from OSU, Michigan last yr, etc. True...they are very hard to find. But, to be elite, u have to get'em...or at least develop the guys u have into them, if possible.
You also said "he doesn't develop the heavies well" -- I provided you evidence to the contrary.

As you acknowledge, game wreckers aren't a dime a dozen. There are probably only three or four guys playing in CFB at any given time who fit that description.
 

scrivener

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You also said "he doesn't develop the heavies well" -- I provided you evidence to the contrary.

As you acknowledge, game wreckers aren't a dime a dozen. There are probably only three or four guys playing in CFB at any given time who fit that description.
Ok...I mean it's clear that they aren't developed enough in college for what I consider to be dominant in big moments. I mean don't ask me, James has even mentioned that they need to get game wreckers up front. You and I typically agree to disagree and that's what it will be in this regard…. but my measure of being developed well enough is do they play great in big moments… and as an aggregate they haven't IMO
 

ryoder1

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Well, I guess I could bitch and moan online about how I'm entitled to titles more frequently. But for comparison's sake, Penn State, Michigan, and Notre Dame have 0 titles combined in the BCS era. Oklahoma hasn't won a title in 21 years. Texas has 1 title in 50 years. Saban is the greatest of all time, and as long as he's dominating the sport -- and I think Kirby Smart is the clear #2 and has a chance to pull off a big time run -- I'm realistic in knowing that titles won't come easily for anybody, even teams with top-3 recruiting classes.

Kirby Smart has recruited as well as anybody for the past 6 years and just won his first title last year -- and probably wouldn't have done so had Bama's 2 stud WRs not blown ACLs. Ryan Day will probably get the same treatment that Kirby got if he doesn't win a title in the next 3-4 years, but until then I'm not worried. He's a class guy that wins 90+% of his games and has us in the title mix. If fans on opposing boards get their jollies because we're not winning as much as Bama, good for them?

Go ask Texas fans whether elite talent guarantees success. Or Kentucky basketball fans for that matter. 1 title this century for a program that has the #1 recruiting classes many/most years.
The point is about OSU and appropriate expectations. Not about PSU, their fans or whatever. OSU is clearly better than PSU and has been since Meyer's arrival. You could make an argument since Tressel's arrival with the exception of the Fickell experiment. I think Day needs to deliver a NC to OSU in the next three years then deliver one every five years based on the recruiting talent. You basically have first and second rounders at the skill positions every year! Come on! Dabo has two in the last 6 years and Kirby nabbed his last year. You gotta keep up. You are the class of the B10 and out talent everyone by a pretty wide margin.
 

NOVABuck45

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The point is about OSU and appropriate expectations. Not about PSU, their fans or whatever. OSU is clearly better than PSU and has been since Meyer's arrival. You could make an argument since Tressel's arrival with the exception of the Fickell experiment. I think Day needs to deliver a NC to OSU in the next three years then deliver one every five years based on the recruiting talent. You basically have first and second rounders at the skill positions every year! Come on! Dabo has two in the last 6 years and Kirby nabbed his last year. You gotta keep up. You are the class of the B10 and out talent everyone by a pretty wide margin.

I agree that Day needs to win a title in the relatively near future. And I think he probably will. But it's also worth reiterating that Kirby had the best talent in America for several years (or at least a close second to Bama -- if recruiting classes are our measuring stick), and didn't win it until last year.......and even then benefited from serious Alabama injuries. A lot of UGA fans (and others) were on Kirby's ass for underachieving.......the 2018 bowl loss to Texas, underachieving in 2019, getting blown out twice in 2020 and barely beating Cincinnati in the bowl game......

Now he's suddenly elite. It just goes to show that there's more to the equation than your recruiting class rank or the composite talent rank. Elite talent is the price of admission, but to win the whole thing you also need some key components to fall into place elsewhere. Those Clemson teams had a generational QB coupled with a generational DL. When that DL graduated, Ohio State dominated Clemson in the playoffs. Now Clemson's DL is better but their QB play is questionable and they look far from a title contender. These things ebb and flow -- except for Saban, who has been the mark of championship consistency throughout.

The law of averages dictate that Day should win a title fairly soon, though. I think that's reasonable. But every 5 years? It's not just Bama, UGA, and OSU in the conversation. A Clemson will pop up now and then. An LSU will come out of nowhere with an all-time roster. Eventually a USC or Texas will get back into the picture.
 
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crm114psu

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I agree that Day needs to win a title in the relatively near future. And I think he probably will. But it's also worth reiterating that Kirby had the best talent in America for several years (or at least a close second to Bama -- if recruiting classes are our measuring stick), and didn't win it until last year.......and even then benefited from serious Alabama injuries. A lot of UGA fans (and others) were on Kirby's ass for underachieving.......the 2018 bowl loss to Texas, underachieving in 2019, getting blown out twice in 2020 and barely beating Cincinnati in the bowl game......

Now he's suddenly elite. It just goes to show that there's more to the equation than your recruiting class rank or the composite talent rank. Elite talent is the price of admission, but to win the whole thing you also need some key components to fall into place elsewhere. Those Clemson teams had a generational QB coupled with a generational DL. When that DL graduated, Ohio State dominated Clemson in the playoffs. Now Clemson's DL is better but their QB play is questionable and they look far from a title contender. These things ebb and flow -- except for Saban, who has been the mark of championship consistency throughout.

The law of averages dictate that Day should win a title fairly soon, though. I think that's reasonable.
The most important thing is that Day has OSU in the mix every year. If that continues, the ball will eventually bounce his way. Gotta be in it to win it.

All I see are signs of a great coach, you guys are lucky to have him.
 

ryoder1

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I agree that Day needs to win a title in the relatively near future. And I think he probably will. But it's also worth reiterating that Kirby had the best talent in America for several years (or at least a close second to Bama -- if recruiting classes are our measuring stick), and didn't win it until last year.......and even then benefited from serious Alabama injuries. A lot of UGA fans (and others) were on Kirby's ass for underachieving.......the 2018 bowl loss to Texas, underachieving in 2019, getting blown out twice in 2020 and barely beating Cincinnati in the bowl game......

Now he's suddenly elite. It just goes to show that there's more to the equation than your recruiting class rank or the composite talent rank. Elite talent is the price of admission, but to win the whole thing you also need some key components to fall into place elsewhere. Those Clemson teams had a generational QB coupled with a generational DL. When that DL graduated, Ohio State dominated Clemson in the playoffs. Now Clemson's DL is better but their QB play is questionable and they look far from a title contender. These things ebb and flow -- except for Saban, who has been the mark of championship consistency throughout.

The law of averages dictate that Day should win a title fairly soon, though. I think that's reasonable. But every 5 years? It's not just Bama, UGA, and OSU in the conversation. A Clemson will pop up now and then. An LSU will come out of nowhere with an all-time roster. Eventually a USC or Texas will get back into the picture.
At least you all are on the short list of teams. PSU can only dream of that. Hoping as the playoff expands to 12 that PSU can be a regular participant and maybe catch lightning in a bottle one of the years.
 

MacNit07

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Well, I guess I could bitch and moan online about how I'm entitled to titles more frequently. But for comparison's sake, Penn State, Michigan, and Notre Dame have 0 titles combined in the BCS era. Oklahoma hasn't won a title in 21 years. Texas has 1 title in 50 years. Saban is the greatest of all time, and as long as he's dominating the sport -- and I think Kirby Smart is the clear #2 and has a chance to pull off a big time run -- I'm realistic in knowing that titles won't come easily for anybody, even teams with top-3 recruiting classes.

Kirby Smart has recruited as well as anybody for the past 6 years and just won his first title last year -- and probably wouldn't have done so had Bama's 2 stud WRs not blown ACLs. Ryan Day will probably get the same treatment that Kirby got if he doesn't win a title in the next 3-4 years, but until then I'm not worried. He's a class guy that wins 90+% of his games and has us in the title mix. If fans on opposing boards get their jollies because we're not winning as much as Bama, good for them?

Go ask Texas fans whether elite talent guarantees success. Or Kentucky basketball fans for that matter. 1 title this century for a program that has the #1 recruiting classes many/most years.
Most posters here are just spinning excuses because Penn State, under Franklin, can not compete.

Objective observers know that Day is one of the very best…building on UM’s last few years and taking O$U to even greater heights. An offensive genius and a great recruiter and coach.
 
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PSUEngineer89

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I can accept that we may not often win a national championship.

I can accept that OSU has fully separated themselves from PSU as an elite program.

I cannot accept becoming an also ran to Michigan and OSU in the big 10.

That's where the "franklin" thing sits with me.

We should not settle for "always 3rd, with the occasional upset".