Minnesota football players suspended due to sex crime

[bjf1991]

wow what a mess. Here is the university trying to show sensitivity to a woman who claims she was raped. But I definitely see the players' perspective -- the university publicly names 10 players and says they're being suspended as the result of a sexual assault investigation -- even though the local prosecutors didn't think there was a case to charge anybody -- and the "victim" has changed her story.

That is a lifetime of living under a cloud for those kids even if they're not guilty of anything other than being in the apartment drinking that night.

I like that the rest of the team is standing up for them.

If the university wants to impose lifetime consequences on these kids by identifying them in a sexual assault investigation, it had better have a REALLY good case.

https://www.washingtonpHst.com/news...o-protest-suspensions/?utm_term=.2f3dd20025af

Agree.....but more than that, actually:

".....If the university wants to impose lifetime consequences on these kids by identifying them in a sexual assault investigation, it had better have a REALLY good case......"

What they "better have"....is enough sense to - if they feel there may be a criminal issue here - turn over what they have to the PROPER law enforcement authorities (and, if they have relevant law enforcement folks contained within the University community - - - ie a legitimate campus-based police force, that has appropriate jurisdictional authority - - - - that's the first step. Otherwise, you default to the LE entity that DOES have jurisdiction), and allow those folks to adjudicate the situation.

Rather than allowing empty-suit bureaucratic dunderheads to play their agenda-driven games with people's lives.....all to further their own self-interests.

These situations - on today's college campuses - have gone completely FUBAR and have entered the realm of the surreal.

_________________________________


"...More than three-quarters of undergraduate women have experienced offensive or sexually harassing behavior...." Damon Sims, PSU VP of Student Affairs


“.....You have my pledge, sexual misconduct on our campuses (predominantly by white/male offenders) will not go unchecked in our community.....” Eric Barron, President PSU



Sexually harassing actions such as:

- receiving unwanted gifts
- having a potential suitor act upset when his/her advances are thwarted.
and
- unsolicited attempts to establish a romantic relationship


Anyone who wants jackwagons like this, lording over their lives (or the lives of the children) ought to have their head examined.


These F-wads ought to spend one "midnight to 2 am shift" in the College/Beaver Avenues corridor

 

[BBrown]

Aside from the fact that if they boycotted the ........... Uh, what Bowl are they in?...........There would probably be very few people who would notice........

______________________

Anyway, if they do boycott the bowl (which probably has less than a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance of happening), I'm all for it

Not just because it would be a nice opportunity to spotlight the hypocrisy of "big-time" ICA and the relationship with the Univeristy at large......which is plenty enough good reason as it is.


But also because, these stupid freaking 3rd tier, who cares, bowl games shouldn't be played anyhow (provides a little extra cash to the coaching staffs and what not, but other than that the only folks who gain anything at all are the folks at ESPiN)
Let the kids go home and enjoy the Holidays with their families - rather than spend 2 weeks alone on campus doing "football", and another week in some half-assed hotel 1,000 miles from their families......all to play in a game that no one - even the players - cares about

It is the Holiday bowl and while not one of the major bowls I wouldn't call it a 3rd tier bowl.
Its usually entertaining and its a great venue in an awesome city. I'd take San Diego over any
FLA bowl destination with the exception of maybe the Orange bowl and that is all because of the bowl
itself and has nothing to do with Miami.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Here's part of the problem. You can't have an objective "oversight" department, responsible for "Equal Opportunity & Affirmative Action" that is staffed almost exclusively by females. The lack of male representation is, in itself, a bit ironic.

Kimberly D. Hewitt
Director, Title IX Coordinator

Tina Marisam
Assistant Director

Sofia Andersson-Stern
Associate to the Director

Maria Eustaquio
Associate to the Director

Gabrielle Mead
Associate to the Director

Kendra Okposo
Associate to the Director

James Mason
Associate to the Director

Stephanie Gandy
Executive Office and Administrative Specialist

The "responsibilities" of this group are included below:

The University of Minnesota's Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action (EOAA) was founded in 1972 to ensure that all University community members uphold federal and state civil rights laws and regulations, as well as University equal opportunity policies.

The EOAA Office envisions a University community that is equitable—one that values the diversity of its workforce and student body and is free from discrimination and harassment. We act as a neutral party to advise individuals and departments about perceived, existing and potential discrimination, harassment, sexual violence, retaliation, and potential violations of the policy against nepotism through consultation and investigation.

EOAA investigates complaints about discrimination; harassment, including sexual harassment; sexual misconduct, including sexual assault, stalking, and relationship violence; nepotism; and retaliation.

EOAA provides educational programming on issues related to discrimination, harassment, sexual violence, bullying, religious discrimination, and the hiring process.

EOAA also is responsible for recommending changes and making revisions to relevant University policies and procedures.


mination; harassment, including sexual harassment; sexual misconduct, including sexual assault, stalking, and relationship violence; nepotism; and retaliation.

EOAA provides educational programming on issues related to discrimination, harassment, sexual violence, bullying, religious discrimination, and the hiring process.

EOAA also is responsible for recommending changes and making revisions to relevant University policies and procedures.

 

[bxle]

This has been news for at least a day. Why hasn't Delany scheduled a presser to announce B1G sanctions?

 

[Langmuir]

The atmosphere for this to happen has been building for a while.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/nation-world/national/article98717512.html

Universities are out of control. I am glad somebody is standing up to these kangaroo courts.

 

[BBrown]

We can count on two things.

Today's "journalists" will shovel out a great number of firmly held opinions which will be unsupported by any actual facts.

Whatever the truth of the situation is, we will never hear it.

Post of the day.
The fact that the "media" is reporting this means that we probably have about 10% of correct information,
60% rumor and innuendo that was confirmed by a "blog" and 30% sensationalized to garner hits on websites.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

The problems are that if Minny waits for due process 1) it may take forever to come and 2) if it comes and goes and it turns out to have been something like conspiracy to rape and gang rape then they face a media firestorm like PSU has with the media screaming without end "why didn't Minny do something". I would say call in the state investigative authorities in cases where such severe crimes and consequences to the alleged victims alleged perpetrators are involved, but we have seen how that works. County DAs, CWS, DPH, State Police, a nonprofit with legal responsibility and a Grand Jury were called in to seriously investigate JS over a period of 15 years of so.... and look what these idiots did in our case. So, what do you do in their shoes... call the detectives.... who giggle and send porn emails around with statements in them that clearly indicate they biases and business affiliations that prohibit them from doing their job....or call in your inhouse biased advocates?

We live and in a time and place when and where we blame others for our own lack of ethics, standards, professionalism and when and where network and association and favors guide most of what we all do. It's called decadence. good luck to anyone at Minny that is trying to do 'the right thing' as they don't have that option, at least in the court of media and public opinion.

 

[Obliviax]

wow what a mess. Here is the university trying to show sensitivity to a woman who claims she was raped. But I definitely see the players' perspective -- the university publicly names 10 players and says they're being suspended as the result of a sexual assault investigation -- even though the local prosecutors didn't think there was a case to charge anybody -- and the "victim" has changed her story.

That is a lifetime of living under a cloud for those kids even if they're not guilty of anything other than being in the apartment drinking that night.

I like that the rest of the team is standing up for them.

If the university wants to impose lifetime consequences on these kids by identifying them in a sexual assault investigation, it had better have a REALLY good case.

https://www.washingtonpHst.com/news...o-protest-suspensions/?utm_term=.2f3dd20025af

Well, this is college football reaping what they have sown. This is Vickey Trippony versus Paterno.

Colleges simply make it up as they go along with their kangaroo court systems. There is no due process. As such, they lurch to the left (Baylor) and the right (Minny). You've got to balance the rights of the alleged victim AND the rights of the accused. What Minny is saying is that one player may have been wrong, but why is the entire team being penalized?

Congratulations, again, the to NCAA, BoT, Triponey and Freeh. They've totally screwed up the entire system.

 

[dwiz]

The guys filmed the sex acts and the police have seen the video, and apparently there was consent. That's why charges weren't filed. That's why the entire team is pissed that these guys are getting suspended. One guy suspended wasn't even at the apartment during the acts. 5 of the guys didn't participate in the act, but were simply in the apartment at the time. I don't blame them for boycotting. Notre Dame will fill in.

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

We live and in a time and place when and where we blame others for our own lack of ethics, standards, professionalism and when and where network and association and favors guide most of what we all do. It's called decadence. good luck to anyone at Minny that is trying to do 'the right thing' as they don't have that option, at least in the court of media and public opinion.

And this, apparently, is what people want. It was inevitable. We have seen the culmination. (At least, I pray to God, that what we face now is the worst it will get.)

 

[Agoodnap]

This is the McCleery Act in operation. If someone says a crime was committed then it, according to the McCleery Act, needs to be treated as if a crime was committed even if a crime wasn't committed. Such logic just cost PSU $2.5 million or so.

The above being said, I'd give the players until noon today to show up for practice or their scholarship will be forfeited on the grounds of insubordination.

 

[bxle]

I'm having a hard time understanding the delay in taking a reasonable amount of bowl money from Minnesota (say three years) and giving it to other member institution's athlete departments. There is precedent for this action.

 

[BobPSU92]

This is the McCleery Act in operation. If someone says a crime was committed then it, according to the McCleery Act, needs to be treated as if a crime was committed even if a crime wasn't committed. Such logic just cost PSU $2.5 million or so.

The above being said, I'd give the players until noon today to show up for practice or their scholarship will be forfeited on the grounds of insubordination.

Clery.

 

[BobPSU92]

I'm having a hard time understanding the delay in taking a reasonable amount of bowl money from Minnesota (say three years) and giving it to other member institution's athlete departments. There is precedent for this action.

delany hates us more.

 

[psuro]

This is the McCleery Act in operation. If someone says a crime was committed then it, according to the McCleery Act, needs to be treated as if a crime was committed even if a crime wasn't committed. Such logic just cost PSU $2.5 million or so.

The above being said, I'd give the players until noon today to show up for practice or their scholarship will be forfeited on the grounds of insubordination.

Insubordination for an entire team? Interesting.

 

[bjf1991]

The problems are that if Minny waits for due process 1) it may take forever to come and 2) if it comes and goes and it turns out to have been something like conspiracy to rape and gang rape then they face a media firestorm like PSU has with the media screaming without end "why didn't Minny do something". I would say call in the state investigative authorities in cases where such severe crimes and consequences to the alleged victims alleged perpetrators are involved, but we have seen how that works. County DAs, CWS, DPH, State Police, a nonprofit with legal responsibility and a Grand Jury were called in to seriously investigate JS over a period of 15 years of so.... and look what these idiots did in our case. So, what do you do in their shoes... call the detectives.... who giggle and send porn emails around with statements in them that clearly indicate they biases and business affiliations that prohibit them from doing their job....or call in your inhouse biased advocates?

We live and in a time and place when and where we blame others for our own lack of ethics, standards, professionalism and when and where network and association and favors guide most of what we all do. It's called decadence. good luck to anyone at Minny that is trying to do 'the right thing' as they don't have that option, at least in the court of media and public opinion.

Classic case of taking the simple.....and trying to make it complex.


You turn criminal matters over to the appropriate (and properly trained, responsible, and staffed) criminal/legal authorities.......and then you do your best - as a society - to hold them accountable.


It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[NedFromYork]

Did she give consent to the filming? If she did, this is still conduct that should not be meeting the standards of a University of Minnesota football player, student-athelete, or student and deserves some consequence. If everybody involved already has had a consequence earlier in the year, then time served, and they should be able to play, if not, they should receive an appropriate consequence.

 

[Art]

Putting the merits of the case aside, the boycott by the team ought to prove interesting, if it happens. We've often wondered what happens when a team refuses to play in a bowl to which a conference is contractually bound. This may be an opportunity to find out.

 

[Agoodnap]

Insubordination for an entire team? Interesting.

Well, I'd expect that most would be at practice by noon. Could you imagine that conversation with their parents if they forfeited the scholarship?

 

[kgilbert78]

Well, I'd expect that most would be at practice by noon. Could you imagine that conversation with their parents if they forfeited the scholarship?

I'll just note the recent Missouri case here. The school backed down.

 

[kgilbert78]

Sexually harassing actions such as:

- receiving unwanted gifts
- having a potential suitor act upset when his/her advances are thwarted.
and
- unsolicited attempts to establish a romantic relationship


Anyone who wants jackwagons like this, lording over their lives (or the lives of the children) ought to have their head examined.


These F-wads ought to spend one "midnight to 2 am shift" in the College/Beaver Avenues corridor

I'll bet some of these yahoos would consider the famous photo of the sailor kissing a gal on VJ Day to be "sexual assault".....

 

[NedFromYork]

They all would drop out, go get a scholarship somewhere. An ultimatum like that would not be smart unless you are prepared for either outcome.

 

[nits74]

Well, I'd expect that most would be at practice by noon. Could you imagine that conversation with their parents if they forfeited the scholarship?

Well, I would say that if they're not, at least they stood their ground. They will be better off in the long run as people of principle.

 

[DandyDonII]

Title IX and regulations like it are not written in the best interest of the male. While they may sound gender neutral, those laws were intended and generally used for the benefit of women (kind of like divorce proceedings, ha)

 

[Erial_Lion]

Well, I'd expect that most would be at practice by noon. Could you imagine that conversation with their parents if they forfeited the scholarship?

For a lot of players, the answer is "fine, I'll transfer". The players have the leverage here, not the school. What is the school going to do, field a team of 25 scholarship freshmen next year with 60 walk-ons? I'd say they're the ones with something bigger to lose right now.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

Paging dr. Emmett....your sanctimonious bully pulpit is ready for you in Minny.

 

[bjf1991]

Well, I'd expect that most would be at practice by noon. Could you imagine that conversation with their parents if they forfeited the scholarship?

I know how that conversation would go in my house:

"Good for you.......I'm proud of you son"
"Now, do you want to stay at Minnesota - or would you like any assistance in choosing another school to attend?"




Kinda' like these guys:

https://www.landof10.com/minnesota/...Landof10&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

 

[jim cummings]

The Roxine's are going to be out in full force if UMinn backpedals on this one.

 

[Nitt1300]

Classic case of taking the simple.....and trying to make it complex.


You turn criminal matters over to the appropriate (and properly trained, responsible, and staffed) criminal/legal authorities.......and then you do your best - as a society - to hold them accountable.


It ain't rocket surgery.

exactly- we are supposed to have a functioning criminal justice system in this country. Why are colleges or employers now expected or entitled to sidestep or to supersede that? At what point do the courts realize that these situations routinely effectively put the accused into double jeopardy ?

 

[Woodpecker]

Putting the merits of the case aside, the boycott by the team ought to prove interesting, if it happens. We've often wondered what happens when a team refuses to play in a bowl to which a conference is contractually bound. This may be an opportunity to find out.

I wonder how that will play out. The Conference is obligated? Hmmm, next team up is who? Illinois? MSU? And they would have to play in less than 2 weeks after clearing out their lockers 3 weeks ago? I suppose that WSU shows up regardless of who their opponent will be or whether the game gets played. They'll still get their money, right? This could be very interesting.

 

[bjf1991]

I wonder how that will play out. The Conference is obligated? Hmmm, next team up is who? Illinois? MSU? And they would have to play in less than 2 weeks after clearing out their lockers 3 weeks ago? I suppose that WSU shows up regardless of who their opponent will be or whether the game gets played. They'll still get their money, right? This could be very interesting.

Yep.........and wouldn't you LOVE to see it play out?

I know I would......for any number of reasons


(FWIW, the Conference is technically not "obligated" to fill all the "slots" that they have Bowl arrangements with.....in fact, the B1G normally doesn't, because they normally don't have sufficient "eligible" teams to meet the number of arrangements.
But, how this specific instance would play out, given that the "Holiday" is high enough in the pecking order to have a choice of an "eligible" team........that could get very interesting.
VERY.
Would they demand that the B1G "supply" them with the next B1G team in line? - whomever that may be Indiana? Northwestern?......and then the chaos trickles down?
Who knows......but it would make "minor bowl week" very interesting )

 

[Erial_Lion]

I wonder how that will play out. The Conference is obligated? Hmmm, next team up is who? Illinois? MSU? And they would have to play in less than 2 weeks after clearing out their lockers 3 weeks ago? I suppose that WSU shows up regardless of who their opponent will be or whether the game gets played. They'll still get their money, right? This could be very interesting.

Not sure how they'd ever make it work with another team. Those teams that have packed up for the year would be a tough sell (and technically, they'd need to find the next 5-7 team based on APR). Maybe a team like San Diego State that plays on Saturday could come back in 10 days and play again (of course playing in 2 bowl games would be unprecedented, but something crazy would have to happen to make the game go forward without Minnesota, and at least SD St wouldn't have to travel and would bring in some local fans).

EDIT - Looks like Northern Illinois if things fall thru...

https://www.landof10.com/minnesota/minnesota-boycott-holiday-bowl-northern-illinois

 

[lein]

Btw. Payout is 2.825 million.

And if the team boycotts, the univ president and board lose their 5 star all expense vacation to San Diego.

 

[KnightSlayer]

exactly- we are supposed to have a functioning criminal justice system in this country. Why are colleges or employers now expected or entitled to sidestep or to supersede that? At what point do the courts realize that these situations routinely effectively put the accused into double jeopardy ?

Should a university system be held to the same standard of proof as a criminal court? Civil court isn't, so why should a university. Everyone is saying the police didn't press charges so, it was consensual. That may not be true. It may just be that they felt they didn't have enough evidence to proceed. Meaning they didn't have enough evidence to prove it was consensual or nonconsensual. How many women agree upfront to have sex with 4 guys. Did she say yes to four but then a fifth jumped in at the end? Was she drunk off her ass but the police couldn't tell by the video? Would pulling a consensual train on a woman, videotaping it and sharing it be legal as far as the police but enough to cause university discipline?

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

It is a legit question. Imagine a grade school teacher accused of Child Sex Abuse. While waiting for the resolution of both the criminal and the job-related legal actions, do you leave him in the classroom? Most places suspend him with pay. MN will argue that they are not stripping them of their scholarships, so this is a suspension "with pay," and therefore permitted. This is tricky for MN, since it throws the3 whole discussion of whether these are employees or not wide open. The universities are in some tough muddy ground here

These players can be sanctioned PRIOR to the process playing out, but it is a very tricky area of the law. Not nearly so simple as "Nothing can be done until they have had their hearing."

Now, before you tell me how different this is from a teacher being accused of CSA, I will remind you that we do not know the facts here. There is video. Did players who were not present share video of one of their teammates having sex with some woman? Did they lie when confronted about it? We. just. don't. know.

Never said we knew all the facts - we only know some of the facts; and even then, we only know what is being reported as facts. I do agree with you that the fact that these students were on scholarship to represent the University may hold them to a higher standard than a general student (including making them subject to team rules and conduct of behavior). Not sure, but I think there is established case-law at this point that student-athletes are not employees thanks to the Northwestern case last year, but not sure that it matters if they are employees as they are subject to the terms their Scholarships were granted under (including standards of conduct I would imagine).

I guess I find the representations in the Press Statement that Claeys was on board with the handling of the situation directly conflicting with Claeys own actions and statements to be somewhat baffling.

 

[bjf1991]

Should a university system be held to the same standard of proof as a criminal court? Civil court isn't, so why should a university. Everyone is saying the police didn't press charges so, it was consensual. That may not be true. It may just be that they felt they didn't have enough evidence to proceed. Meaning they didn't have enough evidence to prove it was consensual or nonconsensual. How many women agree upfront to have sex with 4 guys. Did she say yes to four but then a fifth jumped in at the end? Was she drunk off her ass but the police couldn't tell by the video? Would pulling a consensual train on a woman, videotaping it and sharing it be legal as far as the police but enough to cause university discipline?

"...Should a university system be held to the same standard of proof as a criminal court? ...."

No. Absolutely not. Because they are not a criminal court.
And, No. They absolutely should not be interjecting themselves into criminal matters.


If the "university system" wants to suspend/expel a student for cheating on an exam, or plagiarizing a paper.....or for consuming alcohol on campus at BYU (I'm guessing that they might have such a code there in Provo).....fine

 

[Nitt1300]

Should a university system be held to the same standard of proof as a criminal court? Civil court isn't, so why should a university. Everyone is saying the police didn't press charges so, it was consensual. That may not be true. It may just be that they felt they didn't have enough evidence to proceed. Meaning they didn't have enough evidence to prove it was consensual or nonconsensual. How many women agree upfront to have sex with 4 guys. Did she say yes to four but then a fifth jumped in at the end? Was she drunk off her ass but the police couldn't tell by the video? Would pulling a consensual train on a woman, videotaping it and sharing it be legal as far as the police but enough to cause university discipline?

all good questions- where I came out on this is that you can't (or shouldn't be able to anyway) convict anyone without meeting some accepted standard of evidence. I don't see that happening in many of these cases.

 

[KnightSlayer]

"...Should a university system be held to the same standard of proof as a criminal court? ...."

No. Absolutely not. Because they are not a criminal court.
And, No. They absolutely should not be interjecting themselves into criminal matters.


If the "university system" wants to suspend/expel a student for cheating on an exam, or plagiarizing a paper.....or for consuming alcohol on campus at BYU (I'm guessing that they might have such a code there in Provo).....fine

So filming and sharing a video of guys pulling a train on a girl is none of the university's business?

 

[bjf1991]

So filming and sharing a video of guys pulling a train on a girl is none of the university's business?

Is a woman choosing to have sex with multiple partners in one night the "University's Business"?


See how that works?

 

[lein]

This happens in Sept. Oct 3rd the DA, based n sworn statements and even video evidence says no charges to be filed.

Alleged victim files restraining order on player. Player challenges order in court and order dropped with a voluntary "I'll stay away" settlement. Reported both sides are content, glad it is past them.

Now over 2 months since the DA announced no charges, the University acts, suspending 10? Why these 10? Privacy requirements claim prevents any info. Just trust the Univ leadership at their word.

What am I missing? Due process occurred by those trusted to do so (the DA's office). What does the Univ know that the DA doesn't? What has changed from their investigation?