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More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?

Thus my reasoning that I don't think Stallions work moved the needle.

Then why have him on the sidelines with his sheet calling out opposing teams plays?

Why pay him at all? It's not like he's somebody's kid trying to break into the business. This is an analyst that was retained for multiple years. If his work didn't move the needle, you would think he'd have been let go.
 
If you want to prove or disprove this, it is easy to use analytics. Score plays, especially plays in the first half and ask the question if UM had advantage in formation because UM was supposedly aware of the play call. I have seen no evidence pointing to that. I give the example in another thread which was the UM<>OSU 2022 game. OSU scored on their first two drives and was on the way to a third score when Day made a strange 4th down play. If what you say is true, the best time to leverage it at the beginning of the game. My opinion of watching that game was the inexplicable play calling of the OSU staff. I call it 4th and 4 disease. If OSU had run what they did against Georgia, they probably would have beaten Michigan. Yet Day refused to run Stroud, refused to run on and short, and insisted on cover0 everywhere on the field. Its okay to bend but not break and go to cover 0 in FG range.

Find a game in 2022, and show with the film that UM was playing 4-dimensional chess. I did not see that. I saw a lot of games where teams like Rutgers, Maryland, and Illinois hung around in the 1st half. Those teams were winning RPS.

I think that changing up signals is a lot easier than you think. My opinion is this Stallion fella had a knack for decryption and human nature. Signals probably get changed every week. But we all have tendencies. He may have been looking for patterns. If I want solid encryption I let a random generator set the standard. Stallion may have seen benefit in trying to pick up a humans tendencies to make it easier to decrypt during a game. I have no clue how to measure success. It should be useless if a staff does its due diligence. I would expect the PSU and OSU staff to have separate signaling for a big game. Thus my reasoning that I don't think Stallions work moved the needle.
Fine. They still did the cheating, even if it didn't "move the needle". The entire Michigan program is, and always has been, a pile of sh!t.
 
They say Harbaugh didnt know. Which doesnt even matter.

So let me get this straight, Hair-ball is supposedly using this information on an institutionalized basis (educating his entire coaching staff and players on the information), but he has no idea how reliable the information is, or how the work-product was produced??? Righhhhhttttt - if you believe that bullshit, I have a nice brand-spanking-new bridge to sell you in the Florida Everglades.....
 
If you want to prove or disprove this, it is easy to use analytics. Score plays, especially plays in the first half and ask the question if UM had advantage in formation because UM was supposedly aware of the play call. I have seen no evidence pointing to that. I give the example in another thread which was the UM<>OSU 2022 game. OSU scored on their first two drives and was on the way to a third score when Day made a strange 4th down play. If what you say is true, the best time to leverage it at the beginning of the game. My opinion of watching that game was the inexplicable play calling of the OSU staff. I call it 4th and 4 disease. If OSU had run what they did against Georgia, they probably would have beaten Michigan. Yet Day refused to run Stroud, refused to run on and short, and insisted on cover0 everywhere on the field. Its okay to bend but not break and go to cover 0 in FG range.

Find a game in 2022, and show with the film that UM was playing 4-dimensional chess. I did not see that. I saw a lot of games where teams like Rutgers, Maryland, and Illinois hung around in the 1st half. Those teams were winning RPS.

I think that changing up signals is a lot easier than you think. My opinion is this Stallion fella had a knack for decryption and human nature. Signals probably get changed every week. But we all have tendencies. He may have been looking for patterns. If I want solid encryption I let a random generator set the standard. Stallion may have seen benefit in trying to pick up a humans tendencies to make it easier to decrypt during a game. I have no clue how to measure success. It should be useless if a staff does its due diligence. I would expect the PSU and OSU staff to have separate signaling for a big game. Thus my reasoning that I don't think Stallions work moved the needle.

College teams don't have enough time to implement new signals every week.

You're intentionally ignoring the advanced scouting and the 75 laminated cards he already had prepared prior to the game.

If his work didn't move the needle why is he standing right next to both coordinators every game? Harbaugh allows staff members who aren't contributing anything of value to interact with his OC and DC before almost every play? Really?
 
Then why have him on the sidelines with his sheet calling out opposing teams plays?

Why pay him at all? It's not like he's somebody's kid trying to break into the business. This is an analyst that was retained for multiple years. If his work didn't move the needle, you would think he'd have been let go.

"Can't let someone go if you don't even know they exist..."- Harbaugh (probably)
 
"Can't let someone go if you don't even know they exist..."- Harbaugh (probably)

If I were a Michigan fan, I'd keep my mouth shut. Just like I did during the Sandusky stuff. I don't know what happened, but when 99% of it is damning, you are going to come off bad defending it.

Notice the trend with them.

1. Nothing happened.
2. Harbaugh didn't know.
3. Everybody does it.
4. OK, we did it. So what? We just lined up and thumped everyone. It helped so little, it didn't even register.
 
I think some Michigan fans think they didn’t break any rules b/c Michigan staffers weren’t the ones specifically at the games doing the recording. (I’m not saying I agree with them.)
 
I think some Michigan fans think they didn’t break any rules b/c Michigan staffers weren’t the ones specifically at the games doing the recording. (I’m not saying I agree with them.)

They don't know what to think because they have changed their responses based upon the information released day to day.

The only thing for certain is the majority of the ones posting here are highly defensive of whatever the subject is. They have went from "nothing happened" to "Jim didn't know" to "you know, your guys staff is doing it too!" To "we still thumped you and everyone else and there is no way to prove that we benefit from what we did."

It's like playing chess with a pigeon.
 
If I were a Michigan fan, I'd keep my mouth shut. Just like I did during the Sandusky stuff. I don't know what happened, but when 99% of it is damning, you are going to come off bad defending it.

Notice the trend with them.

1. Nothing happened.
2. Harbaugh didn't know.
3. Everybody does it.
4. OK, we did it. So what? We just lined up and thumped everyone. It helped so little, it didn't even register.
It's a variation of the same argument that it doesn't really matter what plays are called or that the defense knows what's coming; it's all about execution. Great, then why bother to gameplan or make any attempt to deceive the defense? Heck, what's the point of game analysts or even coordinators if none of what the opposing team does really matters as long you out execute them? There's no need to change plays at the line of scrimmage, run motion, or even call signals beyond what's needed to get the play started, just run whatever play and out execute the opponent. Sorry, it just doesn't pass the giggle test.
 
It's a variation of the same argument that it doesn't really matter what plays are called or that the defense knows what's coming; it's all about execution. Great, then why bother to gameplan or make any attempt to deceive the defense? Heck, what's the point of game analysts or even coordinators if none of what the opposing team does really matters as long you out execute them? There's no need to change plays at the line of scrimmage, run motion, or even call signals beyond what's needed to get the play started, just run whatever play and out execute the opponent. Sorry, it just doesn't pass the giggle test.
Except, you know....TCU and all.
 
It's a variation of the same argument that it doesn't really matter what plays are called or that the defense knows what's coming; it's all about execution. Great, then why bother to gameplan or make any attempt to deceive the defense? Heck, what's the point of game analysts or even coordinators if none of what the opposing team does really matters as long you out execute them? There's no need to change plays at the line of scrimmage, run motion, or even call signals beyond what's needed to get the play started, just run whatever play and out execute the opponent. Sorry, it just doesn't pass the giggle test.
Or how about "steroids don't help you hit home runs. You still have to hit the ball." Right and so does everybody else who doesn't do steroids. Let's overlook the fact that some dude is so jacked he can whip a bat around like a 3-wood. He still has to hit the ball. OK.
 
It's a variation of the same argument that it doesn't really matter what plays are called or that the defense knows what's coming; it's all about execution. Great, then why bother to gameplan or make any attempt to deceive the defense? Heck, what's the point of game analysts or even coordinators if none of what the opposing team does really matters as long you out execute them? There's no need to change plays at the line of scrimmage, run motion, or even call signals beyond what's needed to get the play started, just run whatever play and out execute the opponent. Sorry, it just doesn't pass the giggle test.

Exactly. If having ALL the signals labeled from in person scouting/video taping doesn't help at all, then why do teams even try to decipher a signal during a live game?

It's a stupid argument.

It seems to me that perhaps the downfall of this was running it through a fan vs a professional.
 
Or how about "steroids don't help you hit home runs. You still have to hit the ball." Right and so does everybody else who doesn't do steroids. Let's overlook the fact that some dude is so jacked he can whip a bat around like a 3-wood. He still has to hit the ball. OK.
The same type argument was made defending the Astros sign stealing - "well, they still had to hit the ball." Yeah, because it's not like it helps the batter do that when he's able to sit on the pitch. (eyeroll)
 
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If I were a Michigan fan, I'd keep my mouth shut. Just like I did during the Sandusky stuff. I don't know what happened, but when 99% of it is damning, you are going to come off bad defending it.

Notice the trend with them.

1. Nothing happened.
2. Harbaugh didn't know.
3. Everybody does it.
4. OK, we did it. So what? We just lined up and thumped everyone. It helped so little, it didn't even register.
I feel the same as you. That’s why I haven’t defended anything up to this point. Most fans don’t do what you did tho.
 
I think some Michigan fans think they didn’t break any rules b/c Michigan staffers weren’t the ones specifically at the games doing the recording. (I’m not saying I agree with them.)

If they were getting paid by the school through Stalions then they were contractors. Based on the one guy who came forward, they knew what they were doing and that it was for Michigan Football.
 
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That''s why I said its a reasonable conclusion. Since we can't go back and replay the last several seasons without their scheme its impossible to say for certain.
Actually yes. All of the plays are saved if you are interested. It would be a lot of work. Not only are the plays saved, but someone has done analysis and clipped it down and already given their analysis. You can take their conclusions or make your own.
 
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Actually yes. All of the plays are saved if you are interested. It would be a lot of work. Not only are the plays saved, but someone has done analysis and clipped it down and already given their analysis. You can take their conclusions or make your own.

So you’re maintaining it made no impact but the team stuck with it for multiple seasons.
 
Well they went from good to elite and the only difference I can see is the sign stealing. Even their recruiting rankings haven't really changed at all. In 2016 and 2017 they were #4 but most or all of those players have graduated. Since then their best recruiting year was #9 in 2022. Harbaugh didn't suddenly learn to coach in his 11th year in college.
There is a simple explanation. It is the same as the NFL. The QB play has the largest impact on the game. Harbaugh overachieved with Rudock who had figured things out for a half season in 2015. The 2016 team(Speight), 2017(O'Korn), 2018-2019(Patterson), and of course 2020(Milton) were all capped because of QB problems. What happened in 2021/2022? Michigan QB's made plays.

There are a few other things. NIL changed the nature of how to bring in talent. Michigan has massively benefited by bringing in several complete O-linemen who were plug and play. How good could PSU be if Hinton, Nugent, and Henderson had transferred into PSU instead of UM? UM just got two instant NFL caliber linemen in Nugent and Henderson without having to do any development. Jury is still out on Hinton. I can list six NIL transfers for 2023 that are UM's two deep. Never mind the kicker.

The last comment is the nature of recruiting. Recruiting is an inexact science. Not all recruits match their rating. The sum of a team is greater than the parts. Example Texas A&M has struggled because it is not a team but a collection of individuals. Michigan runs an antiquated power run offense. If you are a road grading guard, OSU is not interested in you. If you are a blocking TE, OSU is not interested in you. If you are an anchor like DE, OSU is not interested in you. But Michigan is.
 
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If it wasn't CS on that sideline we would have known in 15 minutes. CMU can stay silent all they want but the longer it plays out the more obvious it becomes. It is NOT Akey, the two look nothing like each other, and you better believe they've already asked him.
 
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They don't know what to think because they have changed their responses based upon the information released day to day.

The only thing for certain is the majority of the ones posting here are highly defensive of whatever the subject is. They have went from "nothing happened" to "Jim didn't know" to "you know, your guys staff is doing it too!" To "we still thumped you and everyone else and there is no way to prove that we benefit from what we did."

It's like playing chess with a pigeon.

Ah, the Biden defense.
 
So you’re maintaining it made no impact but the team stuck with it for multiple seasons.
Exactly. It's one thing if they stuck with some irregular scouting method that wasn't working in hopes that it might pay off down the road. However, what they were doing was clearly illegal. Why risk it if there was no benefit?
 
There is a simple explanation. It is the same as the NFL. The QB play has the largest impact on the game. Harbaugh overachieved with Rudock who had figured things out for a half season in 2015. The 2016 team(Speight), 2017(O'Korn), 2018-2019(Patterson), and of course 2020(Milton) were all capped because of QB problems. What happened in 2021/2022? Michigan QB's made plays.

There are a few other things. NIL changed the nature of how to bring in talent. Michigan has massively benefited by bringing in several complete O-linemen who were plug and play. How good could PSU be if Hinton, Nugent, and Henderson had transferred into PSU instead of UM? UM just got two instant NFL caliber linemen in Nugent and Henderson without having to do any development. Jury is still out on Hinton. I can list six NIL transfers for 2023 that are UM's two deep. Never mind the kicker.

The last comment is the nature of recruiting. Recruiting is an inexact science. Not all recruits match their rating. The sum of a team is greater than the parts. Example Texas A&M has struggled because it is not a team but a collection of individuals. Michigan runs an antiquated power run offense. If you are a road grading guard, OSU is not interested in you. If you are a blocking TE, OSU is not interested in you. If you are an anchor like DE, OSU is not interested in you. But Michigan is.
It’s real easy for a quarterback to make plays when they know what the defense is going to do. That’s why you give them two plays in the huddle and then after the guy signals in what the defense is going to do you call the correct play. It’s obvious some of your Michigan meat heads have never coached or played the game with your logic.

If you know the defense is going to run a double a gap blitz then it’s pretty easy to figure out that you need to run the ball outside.
 
Exactly. It's one thing if they stuck with some irregular scouting method that wasn't working in hopes that it might pay off down the road. However, what they were doing was clearly illegal. Why risk it if there was no benefit?
No risk it-no biscuit
 
It’s real easy for a quarterback to make plays when they know what the defense is going to do. That’s why you give them two plays in the huddle and then after the guy signals in what the defense is going to do you call the correct play. It’s obvious some of your Michigan meat heads have never coached or played the game with your logic.

If you know the defense is going to run a double a gap blitz then it’s pretty easy to figure out that you need to run the ball outside.

It's very easy for a defense to overwhelm a teams run game when you know where the ball is going as well. Sweep Right, let's slant in that direction and drop the safety while the corner plays downhill unconcerned if a pass is coming.
 
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It's very easy for a defense to overwhelm a teams run game when you know where the ball is going as well. Sweep Right, let's slant in that direction and drop the safety while the corner plays downhill unconcerned if a pass is coming.
It's even easier when you are getting D2 level play from your left guard and your center which is what's happening with us currently.
 
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What do you think happens next year?
Dawkins at center and Nelson at left guard. The kid from Virginia will probably be right guard, Drew at left tackle and probably Israel Achumba at right tackle.

Really young, really green. Not sure my man but it doesn't look good
 
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Dawkins at center and Nelson at left guard. The kid from Virginia will probably be right guard, Drew at left tackle and probably Israel Achumba at right tackle.

Really young, really green. Not sure my man but it doesn't look good

Just curious how you predict GIA at RT. My guess is he's at ODU or lower come spring. Does he have 10 snaps in his career?

Shelton, JVen, and Nelson will vie for tackle spots. Nelson, Vega, and Donkoh at Gs.

Wouldn't shock me if we portal in some players. Dawkins at C is probably the safest bet.
 
Just curious how you predict GIA at RT. My guess is he's at ODU or lower come spring. Does he have 10 snaps in his career?

Shelton, JVen, and Nelson will vie for tackle spots. Nelson, Vega, and Donkoh at Gs.

Wouldn't shock me if we portal in some players. Dawkins at C is probably the safest bet.
I like your scenario better actually, as long as the portal guys come from other power fives.

No more Ivy guys. That dog won't hunt, and frankly it should be obvious now to them. Franklin recruits better than any other thing he does and surely he has to see it by now. This project is officially done.
 
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I like your scenario better actually, as long as the portal guys come from other power fives.

No more Ivy guys. That dog won't hunt, and frankly it should be obvious now to them. Franklin recruits better than any other thing he does and surely he has to see it by now. This project is officially done.
I dont see why you guys care about next year already, thats the coaches job. With that said we do need to get some proven guys on the OL in the portal.
 
I dont see why you guys care about next year already, thats the coaches job. With that said we do need to get some proven guys on the OL in the portal.

Caring about Saturday is the coaches job as well...

The big thing is, we need the youth to take over and live up to their rankings AND we need some very solid portal guys. No position is set for next year, but I'd safely assume Nelson starts at LG or RT and Dawkins is the C.
 
College teams don't have enough time to implement new signals every week.

You're intentionally ignoring the advanced scouting and the 75 laminated cards he already had prepared prior to the game.

If his work didn't move the needle why is he standing right next to both coordinators every game? Harbaugh allows staff members who aren't contributing anything of value to interact with his OC and DC before almost every play? Really?
A few things. I am not making the statement that because it is not significant, Stallion did not violate the rules. Even if his actions made no impact and he did this, it is a rules violation. I am arguing, I don't think it moves the needle. I would argue even if Michigan knew a teams play calls it is of no use. Case study. There are three individuals making calls. The opposing team knows which one is the real play caller. Three calls are called. You have one in three chance of being write and two in three in getting blown up. Perhaps Stallion is fast enough to corollate that caller one was the person the QB was paying attention to. On the 2nd play, you might think its caller one. Except for this drive the sequence is round robin. Or is the sequencing on downs? Or is it based on the pictures over the callers heads? Or does it change when new personal groupings come in and the QB is verbally told to change? That is why I don't think whatever information Stallion got was useful.

Like I said before, someone should be able to prove that in 2023 UM has been winning RPS. Is it safe to say every team playing UM is going to change their calls? Stallion and his network of supremacy is gone. There are four games left. The average score against the overmatched Big10 teams has been 40 to 6. If the play call network matters, the Purdue and Maryland games should be significantly more competitive. I think there is less to say about verses PSU/OSU because top10 teams who are capable of beating anyone.
 
It’s real easy for a quarterback to make plays when they know what the defense is going to do. That’s why you give them two plays in the huddle and then after the guy signals in what the defense is going to do you call the correct play. It’s obvious some of your Michigan meat heads have never coached or played the game with your logic.

If you know the defense is going to run a double a gap blitz then it’s pretty easy to figure out that you need to run the ball outside.
I am not talking about RPS. If its a double gap blitz, a crummy QB just has to hand the ball off to the RB. The QB's I described all had opportunities to make plays and did not. There were plays left on the field. The biggest irony of Harbaugh's coaching career up to 2021 was the dearth of QB play. The guy who found and cultivated Andrew Luck kept coming up duds. McNamara and McCarthy are significant upgrades.
 
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A few things. I am not making the statement that because it is not significant, Stallion did not violate the rules. Even if his actions made no impact and he did this, it is a rules violation. I am arguing, I don't think it moves the needle. I would argue even if Michigan knew a teams play calls it is of no use. Case study. There are three individuals making calls. The opposing team knows which one is the real play caller. Three calls are called. You have one in three chance of being write and two in three in getting blown up. Perhaps Stallion is fast enough to corollate that caller one was the person the QB was paying attention to. On the 2nd play, you might think its caller one. Except for this drive the sequence is round robin. Or is the sequencing on downs? Or is it based on the pictures over the callers heads? Or does it change when new personal groupings come in and the QB is verbally told to change? That is why I don't think whatever information Stallion got was useful.

Like I said before, someone should be able to prove that in 2023 UM has been winning RPS. Is it safe to say every team playing UM is going to change their calls? Stallion and his network of supremacy is gone. There are four games left. The average score against the overmatched Big10 teams has been 40 to 6. If the play call network matters, the Purdue and Maryland games should be significantly more competitive. I think there is less to say about verses PSU/OSU because top10 teams who are capable of beating anyone.
You have not answered the fundamental logic question of why was this a sustained practice they did if it had no impact. You don't know.

Also, where did you come from? A total of 7 messages on this board I think all in the last hour on this topic. Out of nowhere you are sending these long meandering messages trying to minimize all this. Don't you need to get ready for Purdue?
 
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