lost in all of this media driven hype are 2 things...one, if you read the actual bylaws that are alleged to have been violated, that of in person advance scouting, there is no stated punishment..not an exact punishment, not a suggestion, but no actual punishment at all listed...so go to past practices and what do we find..the last time a staff member was found to have done what it is alleged that Michigan has done was in 2016..baylor coach did advance in person scouting and got caught..ncaa punished him by suspending him for half of a game...so how would the ncaa justify going above the punishment metted out in the baylor case?..stallions is already looking at getting a show cause most likely, any residual punishment to harbaugh and the school will be minimal unless the ncaa wants to get sued...
More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?
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Depends how widespread and pervasive it was and who all was involved. I think this is a little more than one incident. As a refined Michigan man you obviously see this one guy going rogue on his own and absolutely no one else at the esteemed university had anything to do with this nor did they ever use anything to their advantage. Yes, you are desperately hoping this is a nothing to see here situation and it all goes away. Well, we will see.
Actually no. They already have all of Purdue's signs.
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Didn’t the Baylor coach go to a game with folks at a wedding (and do no recordings)? Do you really not see the difference between the Baylor coach and a budgeted scheme to record signs at 30+ games per year for years? Or are you just that obtuse?
so CMU played last night. Ignore the editorial comments. The CMU coach is saying that they don't know who this person was, he didn't have a bench pass, and are looking into it.
In other words, we know exactly who it is, we allowed it..when will this blow over? Can we ignore it?
I would think the CMU scam opens door for financial compensation with Stallions involved? It is clear that UM used him as rogue agent.
Maybe....but what we do know is that he wasn't a sanctioned CMU participant. And since he is wearing the same thing many others are on the sideline and right there with the team, it is rather odd. So it certainly adds smoke to this story.
I don't agree at all.
What we've seen isn't a one-time deal where some low level staffer got caught. We've got a guy who stood next to the DC with a diagram of the signals in his hand, who traveled to multiple places, somehow got himself on CMU's sideline, and spent thousands of dollars doing it. This is systemic.
Now add in the OC being under FBI investigation for computer activities and Harbaugh's "suspension" and you've got quite a mess. Of course, the NCAA can try to blow it over but they've really suffered and can't afford yet another collapse of credibility.
Define "count". They can certainly be vacated and the non-Michigan public will know they aren't real wins due to cheating.
Are you serious? If you want it spelled out, here you go:
NCAA rule is bylaw 11.6.1, which prohibits “off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents..."
AND
the NCAA football rulebook prohibits "any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited"
These would each be considered Level I violations https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/infractions/d1/glnc_grphcs/D1INF_InfractionsViolationLevels.pdf
There are at least 30 documented games where this occurred, so that's at least SIXTY level one violations.
Right, because the Tennessee thing wasn't nearly as serious as the cheating that Michigan has done.
Realistically? Big Ten bans Michigan from post-season play this season. Much later (following the larger investigation) NCAA drops a hammer on Michigan to the tune of:
1) Show cause for Stalions (main offender), both coordinators (they clearly knew based on how they used the information) and Harbaugh (who is ultimately responsible for things that happen in his shop.
2) Vacation of wins back to the first known date that the in person scouting occurred.
3) Post-season ban for two years (equal to length of cheating)
4) Loss of 4 scholarships per year for 2 years
5) Reduction in number of coaches allowed for 2 years
And had a VP pass which as I understand is for visiting staff.
It is odd. The CMU coach says they’re looking into it and Stalions name wasn’t on the list. However, he apparently can’t look at the pic and say that’s Joe Smith our strength coach (or whatever). So, it appears CMU can’t identify him.
That raises the question of how he got there and is also wearing CMU coaching gear. This was the first game of the year so it’s not like he saw what they wore last week and visited the CMU bookstore to copy it. It’s game 1 and he’s magically wearing what the CMU coaches are?
It now appears more probable that it was Stalions. If so, then clearly someone at CMU was complicit in getting him the pass and the clothing to match the rest of the sideline.
The heat needs to be put on CMU, especially their head coach, to identify him and how he got there. Someone on that coaching staff knows.
Whether or not it made a difference, doesn't affect the fact that they cheated.
If get pulled over for 95 mph in a school zone, the argument "but I didn't run over any kids" isn't a particularly compelling one.
In the Baylor case there was zero reason to believe he was there to steal signs or otherwise gain a competitive advantage. He wasn't buying tickets at each 45 yard line half way up. There wasn't security footage of people in those seats filming the entire game.
These will each be Level One violations because they:
"Seriously undermine or threaten the integrity of college sports"
"Provide or are intended to provide a substantial or extensive recruiting, competitive or other advantage."
"Unethical conduct"
" Violation of head coach responsibility rules."
"Intentional violations"
From: https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/infractions/d1/glnc_grphcs/D1INF_InfractionsViolationLevels.pdf
Since two separate rules were broken and we know it was at least 30 games, that's SIXTY Level One violations. That's huge and (probably) unprecedented.
What is explanation from McElwain? Umm, he got the highest security pass to hang around sideline, wore our attire, had sunglasses on at night and fake clipboard. We don't know as it happens all the time? CMU staff knew him. Right now, CMU AD is going to stay quiet and pray it blows over. Media has to stay vigilante here. This is a key turn of events that could lead to financial compensation involved.
thanks...good points and good post. two possibilities here. A) the HC is lying to cover his butt B) he didn't know. Either way, it points to a conspiracy and a systemic problem. While there are rumors to the Tenn/South Carolina game this is proof that this is a systemic problem (if proven to be true).
I also saw a post, not saying it is accurate, that shows that the sunglasses the sideline coach were are the same type and model that Stalions had. There are also questions as to why he'd be wearing sunglasses at a night game.
Watch the ESPN story about the Great Imposter, the fellow who was at many live shows, sporting events, and other venues dressed to blend in with the athletes, coaches, refs, etc. You would be surprised at how often unauthorized people get on the sidelines of games.
This should be easy as pie. How many VIP sidelines passes were given out? Who actually showed up? Oh this guy did not. He sold it to Stallions. How did he know Stallions?
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In the 70s, yes..easy as can be. You read/watch Catch Me if You Can as well. Today? With HD cameras everywhere, computerized badging, digital ticket tracking, facial recognition..no way. Stallions had to get help.
Ha! I was just thinking of Catch Me If You Can. The story of him getting a pilot's uniform and making an ID is hilarious.
Multiple games, multiple actors, multiple years. Repeat offenders with multiple counts typically get a harsher punishment. Let's not downplay the significance of this issue in the era of gambling, in game betting and the high stakes of making the CFP playoffs, all of which has significantly changed since 2016.
Yep...I was more shocked by his ability to forge Pan-Am checks and how easy it was to fool everyone for years. People just trusted you because of appearances, nothing more.
he also had the story about shop lifting a piano. Said it was easier because nobody would ever expect it. he got uniforms and rented a van. He put a sign on the side of the van. then he and an accomplice walked right in and took the piano. Who would shop lift a piano? Nobody stopped him or asked him for ID>
If you read my first post I stated that I was a Michigan fan and I was looking at other boards to survey what was the general opinion. I cannot answer the question why it was done. My speculation is this Connor Stalions guy is a fruitcake. There is an alleged 500 page internal document written by him documenting how he was going to "Take over Michigan football" He appears to be obsessed by Michigan football and is being bankrolled by his parents. I will use the "allege" as I cannot state as fact.
My primary agenda is not to argue that the event happened or to argue what the punishment should be. That is out of my control. What I am debating is what is the scope of impact. I am arguing that it had minimal or null impact. What I find on boards is it is easy to state as a fact without any looking at the analytics. This news story is bigger than Gaza. Yet no one has the time and energy to look at the game film of the last two years and declare "Yes, UM won RPS" In the case of the Astros cheating, the forensic evidence was there that hitters knew when to lay off speed pitch that was tailing out of the strike zone.
To your answer of worrying about Purdue. My answer is 40 to 6. The most foolish thing that any opponent of Michigan can do is presume the product on the field has dependency on this nut job. I will make the case the outcomes will not change. If a team presumes that Stalions was the source of Michigan success, the spread will be greater.
I will throw this back at you. There are allegations that Stalions snuck on to the CMU sideline for the MSU game. What sane person would presume that one there is anything useful to glean in what should be a scrimmage game and two why waste time on a team that is not a threat? MSU season was dead the day their #1 QB and #1 WR transferred. If the intent is to get intel, why not sit in the seats so no one suspects you when you whip out your phone and two have a better perspective? Have at it on what you think the penalty is going to be. I don't have an opinion. I just think its foolish that people now think UM is going to implode against Purdue. What if UM runs the table?
Vacated is meaningless--did you reduce Paterno's wins when they vacated those losses or did you think the NCAA was laughable? Did you no longer remember winning those games?
Yes, I'm seriously--"based on what are the going to act?" doesn't mean the violates but their historical inaction since our sanctions.
So, you're not being realistic with your first ask of Michigan being banned from the post season this year. Zero chance of that occurring. I'll say 0.00000001% chance. They can't make that decision in a month.
Harbaugh is unlikely to get a show cause--the coordinators are even less likely IMO
Vacating wins is realistic but doesn't mean much (see above)
3 & 4 - maybe but seems high for what I'm expecting
Can't see coaches being reduced. - if so, they'll just take the Bama route of advisors
The Big Ten not allowing Michigan to participate in the post seasons cost us money
Well, they quickly gave Paterno back his wins because they realized they were wrong. But yes, while they were vacated it bothered me quite a bit.
See my Tennessee example from this year. That was Level One violations that were much less serious than this AND they imposed pretty significant sanctions.
The Big Ten certainly can because their investigative process isn't as structured as the NCAA.
Based on what?
If that's your opinion, fine, but that's what I predict will happen.
We'll see, but I doubt it.
Perhaps, but you won't have the same level of talent as advisors as a opposed to coaches.
Who is "us"? Michigan? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
McElwain knew Stalions when McElwain was on the UM staff. I find it unlikely that McElwain would not have crossed paths and ID'ed Stalions. It is either not Stalions or McElwain was aware that Stalions was on the CMU sideline.
"Connor Stalions guy is a fruitcake"
This can be true and it can also be true that he cheated (Level One Violations) as a member of the UM coachign staff. And the coordinators and Harbaugh either knew, or should have known what he was doing. That's a pretty big problem for Michigan.
"What I am debating is what is the scope of impact"
The shame of this, for Michigan fans, is that Michigan is a good team. They didn't need to do this. However, there is no way to know how beneficial this was to their on the field performance (I'd argue it helps a lot when you know exactly what the other team is going to run) AND even if there was little to no impact, that doesn't mean that they didn't break the rules. Again, we are looking at 30 games, with two violations per game. That's SIXTY level one violations. That's massive and deserves a huge punishment.
I think this is probably true although CMU isn't gaining any advantage here. All this does is make UM look bad.
So to summarize:
1. Stalions is either a fruitcake or insane.
2. Michigan brought Mr. Fruitcake onto the sidelines every week so he could stand next to the offensive and defensive coordinators and talk to them while their groups were on the field.
3. 😂
No one thinks Michigan is going to implode. They are a good team AND they have everyone's signs. If a team is going to spend the time to change their entire system for Michigan, that just means they are wasting a lot of time they could have otherwise spent practicing.
Are you really asking others to determine this? Harbaugh and staff obviously saw a great deal of value in Stalion data. They paid him for years then hired him. They did it out of the goodness of Jim's heart? We will have popcorn ready when it continues to go deeper. A middling program in 2020 suddenly goes CFP twice. I remember a horrible PSU team ran all over your D who had Hutchinson, Mazi smith, Kwity Paye, Dax Hill, Josh Ross, David Obayo and other NFL players. Reminder that Tucker only one to beat UM over those years so guessing UM took MSU seriously
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It is pretty clear they were stealing signs. And it is pretty clear that this is a violation of rules. It is also clear that the team took a huge risk in doing this. So, lastly, it is clear that they thought it was worth the risk.
This is happy horseshit - complete nonsense. Why do you suppose it has always been against the rules to steal another teams playbook??? Why did the NCAA inact Rules against electronic espionage and in person scouting of another team's plays all the way back in 1994??? This kind of blatant cheating is an egregious violation of the NCAA'S integrity and sportsmanship clauses... and is a very serious violation. Anyone who doesn't think "intentional cheating" is a big deal need only take a look at the numerous cheating scandals we've had in Pro Sports and whether they were a big deal.
The crux of your argument is that knowing the opposition's plays has no impact on the game result. Great, how's this for an idea: for the balance of the season and all of the next two seasons UM must tell its opponents what plays it is going to run and what defense it will execute. Failure to run the play declared will result in a 15 yard penalty and a loss of down if UM is on offense. The opponent will be allowed use radios to convey their plays and sets. At conclusion of the 2025 season, we can look at the forensics and see if any of it mattered. Since you're confident such things don't have significant impact on the game results, you should be fine with this.
As for the Astros situation, the forensics were irrelevant. First, it was a major violation of a rule; even if the impossible happened and analysis showed no benefit to the Houston batters it would have been a major violation that resulted in severe punishment. Second, no one needed forensic evidence to know that what the Astros did affected the games, only a basic knowledge of baseball and a small helping of integrity.
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Great idea. Would hilarious to watch. Have the broadcasters tell the audience the play so we can all enjoy the spectacle. Could be a whole new sport!
I didn't ask if it bothered you. I asked if you didn't remember the wins or didn't count them
Tennessee didn't get serious sanctions lol
The Big Ten absolutely will not. Thinking they will make a decision in 5 week isn't realistic at all. I asked you to be realistic. Shouldn't be this challenging.
Based on recent history
I said you're reply was realistic on vacating wins and you're still somehow arguing
Does Bama not have great advisors? Often better than their coaches?
Us is Penn State. Your reply there is just desperate. Penn State loses money if Michigan doesn't go to a bowl game/playoff. That's why teams can't opt out.
Along those lines, when I was a backup FR RB in HS we were going against our first team defense running the future teams plays. We had an offensive lineman that was either getting killed, going the wrong way or just mailing in effort one day. The DC picked up on it and had all of the skill guys line up as the offensive line and put the Lineman that wasn’t giving full effort in the backfield as a single back. He then told the Defense which way the play was going and us the rest of us to do nothing for about 3 or 4 plays. Let’s just say that message was sent and received.
We named the play Hy diddle diddle (name withheld) up the middle.
