More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?

[PSU2UNC]

I didn't ask if it bothered you. I asked if you didn't remember the wins or didn't count them

I didn't count them because they (briefly) weren't in the record books.

Tennessee didn't get serious sanctions lol

Yes, they absolutely did. https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView?id=100332

The Big Ten absolutely will not. Thinking they will make a decision in 5 week isn't realistic at all. I asked you to be realistic. Shouldn't be this challenging.

The Big Ten not doing anything means the entire league is a sham. Everyone not named Michigan is clamoring for them to do something. They have to at this point.

Based on recent history
I said you're reply was realistic on vacating wins and you're still somehow arguing

I'm arguing because I'm right and your position (even as a Michigan troll) is ridiculous.

Does Bama not have great advisors? Often better than their coaches?

No one will want to come work at Michigan after this embarrassment.

Us is Penn State. Your reply there is just desperate.

I'm just pointing out that you are in no way a PSU fan. You are a Michigan troll who is defending the indefensible.

Penn State loses money if Michigan doesn't go to a bowl game/playoff. That's why teams can't opt out.

Teams definitely can opt out.

Penn State announces that it won’t go to a bowl game in 2020

The Lions were eligible to go to the postseason at 4-5 but the team has decided not to.

www.pennlive.com

 

[The Spin Meister]

Along those lines, when I was a backup FR RB in HS we were going against our first team defense running the future teams plays. We had an offensive lineman that was either getting killed, going the wrong way or just mailing in effort one day. The DC picked up on it and had all of the skill guys line up as the offensive line and put the Lineman that wasn’t giving full effort in the backfield as a single back. He then told the Defense which way the play was going and us the rest of us to do nothing for about 3 or 4 plays. Let’s just say that message was sent and received.

We named the play Hy diddle diddle (name withheld) up the middle.

Similar story. Lineman kept missing blocks. Coach put him at QB. Told rest of the line to screen block…..

 

[OaktonDave]

My primary agenda is not to argue that the event happened or to argue what the punishment should be. That is out of my control. What I am debating is what is the scope of impact. I am arguing that it had minimal or null impact. What I find on boards is it is easy to state as a fact without any looking at the analytics. This news story is bigger than Gaza. Yet no one has the time and energy to look at the game film of the last two years and declare "Yes, UM won RPS" In the case of the Astros cheating, the forensic evidence was there that hitters knew when to lay off speed pitch that was tailing out of t he strike zone.

Now that I'm thinking about it, how do you forensic analysis without a baseline? You can't use previous years since the players on the teams are different. Wouldn't you have to have a sample from when signs weren't being stolen and a sample when they were? Would the TCU game count as a possible sample for when they weren't or would the fact that UM and TCU didn't play a game where UM could steal the signs rule it out?

 

[bluehair666]

so now sign stealing is worse than the UT coach paying cash money to recruits?...historically the 2 biggest no-no's were paying recruits and players, and academic fraud...UNC skated on the academic fraud, and UT did likewise with the ca$h, both recently..the KU basketball probe took almost 6 years, and was not what folks thought it would be...you're going to be disappointed when this drags out and turns into a slap on the wrist...and please tell me the last time a conference took punitive action during the season without an investigation..lots of folks, plenty here, think that rumor on social media is provable evidence..cope harder, cry more

 

[Thomas1945]

so now sign stealing is worse than the UT coach paying cash money to recruits?...historically the 2 biggest no-no's were paying recruits and players, and academic fraud...UNC skated on the academic fraud, and UT did likewise with the ca$h, both recently..the KU basketball probe took almost 6 years, and was not what folks thought it would be...you're going to be disappointed when this drags out and turns into a slap on the wrist...and please tell me the last time a conference took punitive action during the season without an investigation..lots of folks, plenty here, think that rumor on social media is provable evidence..cope harder, cry more

There’s two really pathetic things about your post. One is that sadly there’s some truth in it when describing the previous outcomes. Two is your championing of past bad behavior as an excuse for allowing present misdeeds to go unpunished.

 

[Psubiomed]

I didn't count them because they (briefly) weren't in the record books.

Yes, they absolutely did. https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView?id=100332

The Big Ten not doing anything means the entire league is a sham. Everyone not named Michigan is clamoring for them to do something. They have to at this point.

I'm arguing because I'm right and your position (even as a Michigan troll) is ridiculous.

No one will want to come work at Michigan after this embarrassment.

I'm just pointing out that you are in no way a PSU fan. You are a Michigan troll who is defending the indefensible.

Teams definitely can opt out.

Penn State announces that it won’t go to a bowl game in 2020

The Lions were eligible to go to the postseason at 4-5 but the team has decided not to.

www.pennlive.com

Owned. Awesome job UNC!

By the way Paul Finebaum is calling for the Big Ten to act RIGHT NOW AND SUSPEND THEIR SEASON

 

[bapsu_1]

I think this is probably true although CMU isn't gaining any advantage here. All this does is make UM look bad.

CMU coach looks like he's LYING without a doubt to me.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

so now sign stealing is worse than the UT coach paying cash money to recruits?...historically the 2 biggest no-no's were paying recruits and players, and academic fraud...UNC skated on the academic fraud, and UT did likewise with the ca$h, both recently..the KU basketball probe took almost 6 years, and was not what folks thought it would be...you're going to be disappointed when this drags out and turns into a slap on the wrist...and please tell me the last time a conference took punitive action during the season without an investigation..lots of folks, plenty here, think that rumor on social media is provable evidence..cope harder, cry more

Such laughable bullshit that you're attempting to minimize what they were doing as just "sign stealing" - what was being done far exceeds "sign stealing". scUM commissioned Stalions to record and document plays and formations that corresponded with specific signs.... That is blatantly illegal and a very serious infaction as it undermines the integrity of the game (i.e., trying to gain an unfair advantage via patently illegal means). "Sign Stealing" is not illegal - what scUM did in their efforts to decipher and understand opponents play calls and associated signs to those play calls (i.e., specifically illegal espionage) is massively illegal.

 

[LandoComando]

I didn't count them because they (briefly) weren't in the record books.

Yes, they absolutely did. https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView?id=100332

The Big Ten not doing anything means the entire league is a sham. Everyone not named Michigan is clamoring for them to do something. They have to at this point.

I'm arguing because I'm right and your position (even as a Michigan troll) is ridiculous


No one will want to come work at Michigan after this embarrassment.

I'm just pointing out that you are in no way a PSU fan. You are a Michigan troll who is defending the indefensible.

Teams definitely can opt out.

Penn State announces that it won’t go to a bowl game in 2020

The Lions were eligible to go to the postseason at 4-5 but the team has decided not to.

www.pennlive.com

That's your fault for not counting them. Regardless you still remembered them.

Those aren't serious sanctions but to each their own.

Has an AD publicly asked the Big Ten to do anything? If so, I missed that. Who that matters is demanding action?

Still not a Michigan fan. When you stoop to that level you lack an argument.

People said no one would go to Penn State. How'd they play out?

Where have I defended Michigan? You're not making sense. Your inability to deal with what you want vs what is likely is nonsensical.

Opt out was only an option during COVID but you know that.

If you said, "I hope Michigan gets major sanctions once an investigation is completed" I'd fully agree with you. For me, this isn't about Michigan. It's about the impotent NCAA.

 

[Thomas1945]

Such laughable bullshit that you're attempting to minimize what they were doing as just "sign stealing" - what was being done far exceeds "sign stealing". scUM commissioned Stalions to record and document plays and formations that corresponded with specific signs.... That is blatantly illegal and a very serious infaction as it undermines the integrity of the game (i.e., trying to gain an unfair advantage via patently illegal means). "Sign Stealing" is not illegal - what scUM did in their efforts to decipher and understand opponents play calls and associated signs to those play calls (i.e., specifically illegal espionage) is massively illegal.

He’s a joke, if you hit him in the head with a hammer and split his skull open he’d claim you missed.

 

[PSU2UNC]

That's your fault for not counting them. Regardless you still remembered them.

Silly argument to be having as vacating wins is the least of Michigan's problems.

Those aren't serious sanctions but to each their own.

Loss of scholarships is most definitely serious.

Has an AD publicly asked the Big Ten to do anything?

Not sure why you would expect that publicly. But I'd be shocked if they weren't talking to each other (and the league office) behind the scenes.

If so, I missed that. Who that matters is demanding action?

Coaches.

Michigan should be punished, say 94% of CFB coaches in our poll. What else did it reveal?

How bad are the Michigan cheating allegations? Does Jim Harbaugh have plausible deniability? Our CFB coaches poll reveals that and more.

theathletic.com

Media.

Finebaum rips Harbaugh for sign-stealing allegations - ESPN Video

Paul Finebaum is disgusted by the sign-stealing allegations against Michigan and regrets giving Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt.

www.espn.in

Fans.
(see also: the entire internet)

Still not a Michigan. When you stoop to that level you lack an argument.

LOLOLOL. No one believes that.

People said no one would go to Penn State. How'd they play out?

Apples and oranges. PSU did nothing wrong. Michigan clearly did.

Where have I defended Michigan? You're not making sense. You're inability to deal with what you want vs what is likely is nonsensical.

This entire thread is you defending Michigan.

Opt out was only an option during COVID but you know that.

Covid was unprecedented. A team cheating on this scale is also unprecedented. I would rule out a post-season ban based on this line of reasoning.

If you said, "I hope Michigan gets major sanctions once an investigation is completed" I'd fully agree with you. For me, this isn't about Michigan. It's not the impotent NCAA.

I'm pretty sure this is about Michigan. The Big Ten can also sanction them (and should).

 

[hfhmilkman]

"Connor Stalions guy is a fruitcake"
This can be true and it can also be true that he cheated (Level One Violations) as a member of the UM coachign staff. And the coordinators and Harbaugh either knew, or should have known what he was doing. That's a pretty big problem for Michigan.

"What I am debating is what is the scope of impact"
The shame of this, for Michigan fans, is that Michigan is a good team. They didn't need to do this. However, there is no way to know how beneficial this was to their on the field performance (I'd argue it helps a lot when you know exactly what the other team is going to run) AND even if there was little to no impact, that doesn't mean that they didn't break the rules. Again, we are looking at 30 games, with two violations per game. That's SIXTY level one violations. That's massive and deserves a huge punishment.

That is where I strongly disagree. You state that there was impact, yet you refuse to quantify. The plays are on film. Maybe we don't have the time and skill. But if this is bigger than Gaza, someone should be compiling the plays and showing that Michigan was winning because their defense and offense was winning the call way more than what should statistically is possible. That is how we know the Astros cheated. Pitching is about deception. If its two strikes, you have to protect the plate. The Astros benefited because they knew the breaking ball was not going to be a strike. So don't swing. They were swinging when they knew the pitch was a fastball. You state as fact while refusing to look at the data. My wife is a vaccine denier. She insists six figures of people have died because of myocarditis due to the COVID vaccine and that Fauci is going to be tried for crimes against humanity any minute now. You know how I end the conversation? I inquire if she wants to peruse the historic cardiac mortality tables compiled by each state. Pundits can speak what they say is the truth in their silo. The actuary tables do not lie. Anyone can say anything be about vaccines, election fraud, is Hunter Biden Kingpin, etc. Again, I am not commenting on what the penalty should be. Tom Brady was suspended four games for throwing a football in cold weather. Someone can choose whatever punishment they want. I just argue PV=nRT. Pretty obvious that if T goes down under constant V, P is going to go down just like my tires in the winter.

But its so much easier to declare what we want to believe without fact. I am uninterested in the results of the NCAA investigation because those people arbitrary. And you will know how beneficial Stalions work is by observing Michigan performance in the next four games. Should I consider it a done deal that UM will lose in Happy Valley? As you say this is massive.

 

[LandoComando]

Silly argument to be having as vacating wins is the least of Michigan's problems.

Loss of scholarships is most definitely serious.

Not sure why you would expect that publicly. But I'd be shocked if they weren't talking to each other (and the league office) behind the scenes.

Coaches.

Michigan should be punished, say 94% of CFB coaches in our poll. What else did it reveal?

How bad are the Michigan cheating allegations? Does Jim Harbaugh have plausible deniability? Our CFB coaches poll reveals that and more.

theathletic.com

Media.

Finebaum rips Harbaugh for sign-stealing allegations - ESPN Video

Paul Finebaum is disgusted by the sign-stealing allegations against Michigan and regrets giving Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt.

www.espn.in

Fans.
(see also: the entire internet)

LOLOLOL. No one believes that.

Apples and oranges. PSU did nothing wrong. Michigan clearly did.

This entire thread is you defending Michigan.

Covid was unprecedented. A team cheating on this scale is also unprecedented. I would rule out a post-season ban based on this line of reasoning.

I'm pretty sure this is about Michigan. The Big Ten can also sanction them (and should).

A loss of scholarship(s) isn't a major sanction. It's easy to overcome. It's not close to what you claim as being is realistic.

Media fans and coaches aren't important. Are ADs publicly asking?

Why would a coach want to go to Michigan after this and run a clean program? You're delusional.

Quote anything I said defending Michigan. You can't because it doesn't exist.

Again COVID was why teams could opt out. Michigan being forced out penalizes everyone else as well financially. Fact not opinion.

It's not about Michigan. It's about what will be done to them. That's a huge difference. It's also why you don't comprehend that accepting really isn't defending them. I've never once said they didn't do anything wrong or shouldn't be punished but you're too emotional to read what is written.

 

[Psubiomed]

I hope everyone can now CLEARLY SEE that Lando is EXACTLY WHO I SAID HE WAS LAST YEAR. A Michigan troll. Thank you UNC for exposing him.

 

[Psubiomed]

Lando is finished. His Exodus from our board is imminent:

 

[Obliviax]

That is where I strongly disagree. You state that there was impact, yet you refuse to quantify. The plays are on film. Maybe we don't have the time and skill. But if this is bigger than Gaza, someone should be compiling the plays and showing that Michigan was winning because their defense and offense was winning the call way more than what should statistically is possible. That is how we know the Astros cheated. Pitching is about deception. If its two strikes, you have to protect the plate. The Astros benefited because they knew the breaking ball was not going to be a strike. So don't swing. They were swinging when they knew the pitch was a fastball. You state as fact while refusing to look at the data. My wife is a vaccine denier. She insists six figures of people have died because of myocarditis due to the COVID vaccine and that Fauci is going to be tried for crimes against humanity any minute now. You know how I end the conversation? I inquire if she wants to peruse the historic cardiac mortality tables compiled by each state. Pundits can speak what they say is the truth in their silo. The actuary tables do not lie. Anyone can say anything be about vaccines, election fraud, is Hunter Biden Kingpin, etc. Again, I am not commenting on what the penalty should be. Tom Brady was suspended four games for throwing a football in cold weather. Someone can choose whatever punishment they want. I just argue PV=nRT. Pretty obvious that if T goes down under constant V, P is going to go down just like my tires in the winter.

But its so much easier to declare what we want to believe without fact. I am uninterested in the results of the NCAA investigation because those people arbitrary. And you will know how beneficial Stalions work is by observing Michigan performance in the next four games. Should I consider it a done deal that UM will lose in Happy Valley? As you say this is massive.

your statement is preposterous. If that were true, why would the NCAA have the rule? Adding to that, why would UM take the risk in breaking the rule? Obviously, they felt the "juice was worth the squeeze".

I do agree with your last statement. We don't know. All we know for sure is that Harbaugh self-suspended. That the former OC was, at first, suspended then fired. Then, after that, we know the police and FBI have an ongoing investigation for computer fraud which may or may not be related to his duties as OC. And lastly, we have massive amounts of smoke over UM stealing signals at other team's games. We also have allegations that they did this on the sideline of a MAC game as well as gave that information to South Carolina.

 

[jferretti]

In the 70s, yes..easy as can be. You read/watch Catch Me if You Can as well. Today? With HD cameras everywhere, computerized badging, digital ticket tracking, facial recognition..no way. Stallions had to get help.

It's still being done. Lot's of ideas.

 

[LandoComando]

I hope everyone can now CLEARLY SEE that Lando is EXACTLY WHO I SAID HE WAS LAST YEAR. A Michigan troll. Thank you UNC for exposing him.

UNC is just nonsensically ranting because he's so emotional about what happened to us he doesn't want the process to play put for anyone. I've yet to defend Michigan in any way unless saying their admin won't asked to be sanctioned is defending them somehow. Again reality

 

[LandoComando]

your statement is preposterous. If that were true, why would the NCAA have the rule? Adding to that, why would UM take the risk in breaking the rule? Obviously, they felt the "juice was worth the squeeze".

I do agree with your last statement. We don't know. All we know for sure is that Harbaugh self-suspended. That the former OC was, at first, suspended then fired. Then, after that, we know the police and FBI have an ongoing investigation for computer fraud which may or may not be related to his duties as OC. And lastly, we have massive amounts of smoke over UM stealing signals at other team's games. We also have allegations that they did this on the sideline of a MAC game as well as gave that information to South Carolina.

Key word "allegations" they're likely true but nothing happens until it's all vetted and we know how long that takes.

 

[psu00]

CMU coach looks like he's LYING without a doubt to me.

He’s clearly uncomfortable discussing it. He makes no direct eye contact through the entire statement, always looking down and toward the left.

Listening to it again, it appears he indirectly confirms it was Connor Stalions saying his name wasn’t on the list but they’ll keep digging. It’s clearly not one of his guys or he would have said so.

Also, if our visiting Michigan friend is correct and they knew each other from when they were both coaching at Michigan, then it’s odd he refers to him as “the sign stealer guy” rather than by name. He’s trying to distance himself by playing dumb. If he was being fully honest he wouldn’t be so evasive.

 

[Thomas1945]

That is where I strongly disagree. You state that there was impact, yet you refuse to quantify. The plays are on film. Maybe we don't have the time and skill. But if this is bigger than Gaza, someone should be compiling the plays and showing that Michigan was winning because their defense and offense was winning the call way more than what should statistically is possible. That is how we know the Astros cheated. Pitching is about deception. If its two strikes, you have to protect the plate. The Astros benefited because they knew the breaking ball was not going to be a strike. So don't swing. They were swinging when they knew the pitch was a fastball. You state as fact while refusing to look at the data. My wife is a vaccine denier. She insists six figures of people have died because of myocarditis due to the COVID vaccine and that Fauci is going to be tried for crimes against humanity any minute now. You know how I end the conversation? I inquire if she wants to peruse the historic cardiac mortality tables compiled by each state. Pundits can speak what they say is the truth in their silo. The actuary tables do not lie. Anyone can say anything be about vaccines, election fraud, is Hunter Biden Kingpin, etc. Again, I am not commenting on what the penalty should be. Tom Brady was suspended four games for throwing a football in cold weather. Someone can choose whatever punishment they want. I just argue PV=nRT. Pretty obvious that if T goes down under constant V, P is going to go down just like my tires in the winter.

But its so much easier to declare what we want to believe without fact. I am uninterested in the results of the NCAA investigation because those people arbitrary. And you will know how beneficial Stalions work is by observing Michigan performance in the next four games. Should I consider it a done deal that UM will lose in Happy Valley? As you say this is massive.

Another one who if his head was split open with a hammer would claimed you missed. Why is it difficult for you to understand that if you know in advance what play is being run it’s easier to stop? When playing with superior athletes, as UM usually is against most opponents it’s even easier. That’s what makes this whole situation even more comical.

Something almost as stupid as Nixon with a 95% chance of reelection breaking into the Watergate to steal the Democratic Parties plans. OSU is the boogie man here. Jimmy couldn’t beat them. So he and the other members of the Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight thought G. Gordon Stalions could help. As usual with stupid decisions it got out of hand. It’s really as simple as that.

 

[Pale ryder]

Lando is finished. His Exodus from our board is imminent:

View embedded media

Does this mean you'll stop obsessing over him and.....you know.....get a life??

 

[LandoComando]

Does this mean you'll stop obsessing over him and.....you know.....get a life??

I am his life

 

[Obliviax]

Another one who if his head was split open with a hammer would claimed you missed. Why is it difficult for you to understand that if you know in advance what play is being run it’s easier to stop? When playing with superior athletes, as UM usually is against most opponents it’s even easier. That’s what makes this whole situation even more comical.

Something almost as stupid as Nixon with a 95% chance of reelection breaking into the Watergate to steal the Democratic Parties plans. OSU is the boogie man here. Jimmy couldn’t beat them. So he and the other members of the Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight thought G. Gordon Stalions could help. As usual with stupid decisions it got out of hand. It’s really as simple as that.

anyone with the slightest understanding of the strategic game of football would know the value of knowing simply if it is a pass or run. Or if it is to the left or right.

For example, we all know the value of establishing the run game even though 70% of yardage gained is gained through the air. Why? The defense has to maintain their gap responsibility which takes away from their ability to rush the QB (not to mention stunts and zone blitzes). If a sign steeler simply can discern that touching your hat means you are passing that would be HUGE.

 

[PSU2UNC]

That is where I strongly disagree. You state that there was impact, yet you refuse to quantify. The plays are on film. Maybe we don't have the time and skill. But if this is bigger than Gaza, someone should be compiling the plays and showing that Michigan was winning because their defense and offense was winning the call way more than what should statistically is possible. That is how we know the Astros cheated. Pitching is about deception. If its two strikes, you have to protect the plate. The Astros benefited because they knew the breaking ball was not going to be a strike. So don't swing. They were swinging when they knew the pitch was a fastball. You state as fact while refusing to look at the data. My wife is a vaccine denier. She insists six figures of people have died because of myocarditis due to the COVID vaccine and that Fauci is going to be tried for crimes against humanity any minute now. You know how I end the conversation? I inquire if she wants to peruse the historic cardiac mortality tables compiled by each state. Pundits can speak what they say is the truth in their silo. The actuary tables do not lie. Anyone can say anything be about vaccines, election fraud, is Hunter Biden Kingpin, etc. Again, I am not commenting on what the penalty should be. Tom Brady was suspended four games for throwing a football in cold weather. Someone can choose whatever punishment they want. I just argue PV=nRT. Pretty obvious that if T goes down under constant V, P is going to go down just like my tires in the winter.

But its so much easier to declare what we want to believe without fact. I am uninterested in the results of the NCAA investigation because those people arbitrary. And you will know how beneficial Stalions work is by observing Michigan performance in the next four games. Should I consider it a done deal that UM will lose in Happy Valley? As you say this is massive.

Wow, that's a lot of words to say very little.

First, let's not conflate anything sports related with what is going on the middle east, nor with the seriousness/ignorance of anti-vaccine people.

Second, and I can't stress this enough, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE AN IMPACT FOR THERE TO BE A VIOLATION. My earlier analogy was if you get pulled over for going 95 mph in a school zone saying "But I didn't hit any kids" doesnt' fly.

However, there is certainly an impact of knowing the plays before they are run. This happens in at least two ways:

1) It allows you to call a defense that is most amendable to stopping that play, especially if that play is "against tendencies for that down and distance", e.g. an opponent calling a pass on 3rd and 1 and you knowing to go cover 2 instead of having 9 guys in the box is a HUGE advantage.

2) for your front seven, knowing it's a run vs a pass allows them to not have to evaluate what is happening during a play nearly the same way. Play action now means nothing. LBs knowing a run is coming can ignore their TE or RB coverage responsibilities.

In summary, a HUGE advantage to knowing (through illegal means) what play is coming.

Finallly, kudos for citing the ideal gas law. As a chemist, I applaud this. But in the same way you should add more air to your tires in the winter so as to achieve optimum pressure, NFL balls need to be inflated to a certain pressure regardless of temperature. Therefore, the Patriots were not playing with regulation footballs and there is significant evidence that this was done on purpose. Brady is just in a long line of Michigan cheaters.

 

[PSU2UNC]

UNC is just nonsensically ranting because he's so emotional about what happened to us he doesn't want the process to play put for anyone. I've yet to defend Michigan in any way unless saying their admin won't asked to be sanctioned is defending them somehow. Again reality

LOL. I'm actually pretty dispassionate about this. The amount of evidence we have already is quite damning. I never count on the NCAA to do the right thing, but am hoping the Big Ten steps up and listens to 13 of its member organizations who will demand something is done.

 

[PSU2UNC]

A loss of scholarship(s) isn't a major sanction. It's easy to overcome. It's not close to what you claim as being is realistic.

LOL. Did you watch PSU football from 2012 to 2015? Loss of scholarships is a HUGE deal.

Media fans and coaches aren't important. Are ADs publicly asking?

Public opinion is definitely important. And as I said earlier the ADs are almost certainly discussing this with the league office behind the scenes.

Why would a coach want to go to Michigan after this and run a clean program? You're delusional.

Coach? Maybe. Analyst? No. So less coaches would matter because you aren't getting good analysts.

Quote anything I said defending Michigan. You can't because it doesn't exist.

LOLOLOLOL. That's literally been the theme of all of your posts on this thread.

Again COVID was why teams could opt out. Michigan being forced out penalizes everyone else as well financially. Fact not opinion.

This wouldn't be an "opt out" this would be a post-season ban. This happens with some regularity:

Arizona State self-imposes bowl ban for 2023

Arizona State has self-imposed a bowl ban for the 2023 season, the school announced Sunday, choosing to sanction itself over violations committed under former coach Herm Edwards.

www.espn.com

It's not about Michigan. It's about what will be done to them. That's a huge difference. It's also why you don't comprehend that accepting really isn't defending them. I've never once said they didn't do anything wrong or shouldn't be punished but you're too emotional to read what is written.

Why are you spending so much time saying (or claiming to say", the NCAA won't do anything (which seems to be your thesis, or what you claim your thesis is)? The only real reason to do this is because you are a Michigan troll who refuses to admit that the success over the last 2.5 years has been mirage.

 

[LandoComando]

LOL. I'm actually pretty dispassionate about this. The amount of evidence we have already is quite damning. I never count on the NCAA to do the right thing, but am hoping the Big Ten steps up and listens to 13 of its member organizations who will demand something is done.

Your not "dispassionate" about this.
If you never count on the NCAA to do the right thing why are you arguing with me when we agree. You keep saying what you realistically think they'll do when you just admitted they never so the right thing.
I think it's naive to believe the members of the Big Ten will want action taken. It's not about the coaches. It about the ADs and the University Presidents.
Again, once the investigation is fully completed I hope the NCAA takes meaningful action. I just have zero reason to believe they will or the Big Ten wants them to.

 

[WaffleShopper]

That is where I strongly disagree. You state that there was impact, yet you refuse to quantify. The plays are on film. Maybe we don't have the time and skill. But if this is bigger than Gaza, someone should be compiling the plays and showing that Michigan was winning because their defense and offense was winning the call way more than what should statistically is possible. That is how we know the Astros cheated. Pitching is about deception. If its two strikes, you have to protect the plate. The Astros benefited because they knew the breaking ball was not going to be a strike. So don't swing. They were swinging when they knew the pitch was a fastball. You state as fact while refusing to look at the data. My wife is a vaccine denier. She insists six figures of people have died because of myocarditis due to the COVID vaccine and that Fauci is going to be tried for crimes against humanity any minute now. You know how I end the conversation? I inquire if she wants to peruse the historic cardiac mortality tables compiled by each state. Pundits can speak what they say is the truth in their silo. The actuary tables do not lie. Anyone can say anything be about vaccines, election fraud, is Hunter Biden Kingpin, etc. Again, I am not commenting on what the penalty should be. Tom Brady was suspended four games for throwing a football in cold weather. Someone can choose whatever punishment they want. I just argue PV=nRT. Pretty obvious that if T goes down under constant V, P is going to go down just like my tires in the winter.

But its so much easier to declare what we want to believe without fact. I am uninterested in the results of the NCAA investigation because those people arbitrary. And you will know how beneficial Stalions work is by observing Michigan performance in the next four games. Should I consider it a done deal that UM will lose in Happy Valley? As you say this is massive.

How can we quantify it? I don't feel like working so I'll give it a try.

Harbaugh's win % at Mich up until 2020 was 69%.
Harbaugh's win % at Mich since 2021 when the supposed illegal sign stealing began is 94%.

Harbaugh lost his last 6 bowl games, including the two after the 2021 and 2022 seasons. Michigan's opponents were not announced until after the regular season, so there was no way for Stalions or his people to visit opponents' games in person.

People have mentioned that it takes Harbaugh a half to catch up the the signal changes of his opponents. Michigan has played nobody this year so let's look at a few of their more competitive games in 2022.
Purdue - Mich up 14-13 at half, outscored Purdue 29-9 after half
OSU - Mich down 17-20 at half, outscored OSU 28-3 second half
Rutgers - Mich down 14-17 at half (!), outscored Rutgers 38-0 second half
PSU - Mich up 16-14 at half, outscored PSU 25-3 second half
Indiana - tied 10-10 at half, outscored Indiana 21-0 second half

So in the second halves of just those games, Michigan outscored their opponents 141-15.

 

[LandoComando]

LOL. Did you watch PSU football from 2012 to 2015? Loss of scholarships is a HUGE deal.

Public opinion is definitely important. And as I said earlier the ADs are almost certainly discussing this with the league office behind the scenes.

Coach? Maybe. Analyst? No. So less coaches would matter because you aren't getting good analysts.

LOLOLOLOL. That's literally been the theme of all of your posts on this thread.

This wouldn't be an "opt out" this would be a post-season ban. This happens with some regularity:

Arizona State self-imposes bowl ban for 2023

Arizona State has self-imposed a bowl ban for the 2023 season, the school announced Sunday, choosing to sanction itself over violations committed under former coach Herm Edwards.

www.espn.com

Why are you spending so much time saying (or claiming to say", the NCAA won't do anything (which seems to be your thesis, or what you claim your thesis is)? The only real reason to do this is because you are a Michigan troll who refuses to admit that the success over the last 2.5 years has been mirage.

Did you watch football from that time frame? Did we survive it?

Public opinion means nothing. Saying that supports us being sanctioned.

I don't understand why you think they won't get good analysts. It's still a major job. Just like we were.

Correct not an opt out but using ASU thats not a huge negative because it's ASU. Michigan could be in the playoff. That's way more money.

The reason is simple. I like to have real discussions instead of you rambling about what you want to see happen.

Find any post where I condoned anything Michigan allegedly did. You can't. This goes back to your fragile emotional state about everything here.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Did you watch football from that time frame? Did we survive it?

Survive? Sure. Did it matter a lot? Absolutely. And if Michigan has significant scholarship reductions (as they should) it will result in them being "down" for 3-5 years, just like at PSU.

Public opinion means nothing. Saying that supports us being sanctioned.

You are conflating two things here. What is "right", e.g. it was not "right" to punish PSU (as PSU did not commit an NCAA infraction) vs whether public opinion can help to drive NCAA action. The fact that public opinion (wrongly) drove the NCAA to act against PSU supports my idea that public opinion will play into their decision to sanction Michigan.

I don't understand why you think they won't get good analysts. It's still a major job. Just like we were.

Sigh. The difference between coaches and analysts does matter. Their roles matter. Their salaries matter. If you take away coaching slots, it will matter. That's my point.

Correct not an opt out but using ASU thats not a huge negative because it's ASU. Michigan could be in the playoff. That's way more money.

That is an opt out. They self imposed a bowl ban. That's effectively opting out. That costs the PAC12 money. It's the same argument. You are 100% wrong here.

The reason is simple. I like to have real discussions instead of you rambling about what you want to see happen.

You have failed to rebut any of my points other than with "Oh, I don't think the NCAA will do that". I provide examples and links and you provide nothing to back up your talking points.

Find any post where I condoned anything Michigan allegedly did. You can't. This goes back to your fragile emotional state about everything here.

I'm not re-reading your 100 pages of drivel on this. It is clear from anyone who has been following along that you are in Michigan's corner here. Please stay on the sinking ship.

 

[PSU2UNC]

Your not "dispassionate" about this.
If you never count on the NCAA to do the right thing why are you arguing with me when we agree. You keep saying what you realistically think they'll do when you just admitted they never so the right thing.
I think it's naive to believe the members of the Big Ten will want action taken. It's not about the coaches. It about the ADs and the University Presidents.
Again, once the investigation is fully completed I hope the NCAA takes meaningful action. I just have zero reason to believe they will or the Big Ten wants them to.

13 out of 14 Big Ten members (as well as probably the new incoming members) all want the Big Ten to act here.

Just because they aren't saying it publicly doesn't mean there aren't conversations going on with Indy.

Maybe the Big Ten will poo the bed on this issue. But if they do, they are going to have some serious issues in the future with member schools, e.g. "Maybe we should cheat too, since there are no short term consequences."

 

[JWB389]

It's still being done. Lot's of ideas.

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My daughter likes to stand in the tunnel pre-game as players are going back and forth, so I stand there with her. At times, there are so many people in that area that it would not be impossible for somebody to blend in and walk on the field. Granted, it would not be easy, but I'm sure it can be done.

 

[LandoComando]

Survive? Sure. Did it matter a lot? Absolutely. And if Michigan has significant scholarship reductions (as they should) it will result in them being "down" for 3-5 years, just like at PSU.

You are conflating two things here. What is "right", e.g. it was not "right" to punish PSU (as PSU did not commit an NCAA infraction) vs whether public opinion can help to drive NCAA action. The fact that public opinion (wrongly) drove the NCAA to act against PSU supports my idea that public opinion will play into their decision to sanction Michigan.

Sigh. The difference between coaches and analysts does matter. Their roles matter. Their salaries matter. If you take away coaching slots, it will matter. That's my point.

That is an opt out. They self imposed a bowl ban. That's effectively opting out. That costs the PAC12 money. It's the same argument. You are 100% wrong here.

You have failed to rebut any of my points other than with "Oh, I don't think the NCAA will do that". I provide examples and links and you provide nothing to back up your talking points.

I'm not re-reading your 100 pages of drivel on this. It is clear from anyone who has been following along that you are in Michigan's corner here. Please stay on the sinking ship.

I didn't matter as much as you wanted it to to make excuses for us not winning enough
Public opinion is public opinion--right or wrong
And those guys that take analyst roles understand that and are just looking path to a better job. What is better than fixing a program after something like this?
It's not an opt out. At all--it's self placed sanctions and the Pac XII agreed to them. Opting out of a bowl game is entirely different as you know. It's not the same argument. At all. You literally can't be this stupid. Actually...
What points do you think you're making? You haven't supported anything--you're giving opinions
Because not once did I defend Michigan and you know it. Accountability is a word you should learn.

 

[Thomas1945]

Lando is finished. His Exodus from our board is imminent:

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Why did Paul change his tune? Probably he checked with all his SEC contacts, and was reassured of either one or two things.
1. The SEC teams told him they weren’t engaging in this behavior.
2. Or, they told him they were doing it in a manner that the crack Inspector Clouseau’s of the NCAA would never uncover it.

 

[LandoComando]

13 out of 14 Big Ten members (as well as probably the new incoming members) all want the Big Ten to act here.

Just because they aren't saying it publicly doesn't mean there aren't conversations going on with Indy.

Maybe the Big Ten will poo the bed on this issue. But if they do, they are going to have some serious issues in the future with member schools, e.g. "Maybe we should cheat too, since there are no short term consequences."

Who say 13 of the 14 want them to act? Show me that? Show proof of that and I'll agree with you.
Oregon, Washington, UCLA and USC want the money--they don't care about if Michigan is punished.
College sports is all about money even if you dislike that reality

 

[PSU2UNC]

Who say 13 of the 14 want them to act? Show me that? Show proof of that and I'll agree with you.
Oregon, Washington, UCLA and USC want the money--they don't care about if Michigan is punished.
College sports is all about money even if you dislike that reality

Three pieces of evidence:

1) See the previously linked Athletic article. 94% of all coaches (even those not directly affected by the cheating) want Michigan punished. Stands to reason that would be a similar pattern in the Big Ten. 94% of 14 is 13.16.

2) The 13 schools have already cooperated to find out what games Stalions bought tickets for and to share survelliance football from those seats. You don't band together to do that if you don't care.

3) Lots of individual articles out there quoting anonymous Big Ten coaches who are furious about this, e.g. https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/c...chigan-theyve-been-doing-this-crap-for-years/

 

[Obliviax]

My daughter likes to stand in the tunnel pre-game as players are going back and forth, so I stand there with her. At times, there are so many people in that area that it would not be impossible for somebody to blend in and walk on the field. Granted, it would not be easy, but I'm sure it can be done.

true...but it is one hell of a risk. it is trespassing. the perp could face criminal charges in a hyper-sensitive time with shootings and terrorist actions. He was standing right there with the CMU staff. Didn't somebody turn around and say "who the hell are you?"

I used to use discount codes from various large companies to get cheaper rooms for my smaller company. At one point, my wife asked "why are you working so hard to save money for rich people?" It made me think. I still do it, of course, because it is a fun game to see what I can get away with.

 

[LandoComando]

Three pieces of evidence:

1) See the previously linked Athletic article. 94% of all coaches (even those not directly affected by the cheating) want Michigan punished. Stands to reason that would be a similar pattern in the Big Ten. 94% of 14 is 13.16.

2) The 13 schools have already cooperated to find out what games Stalions bought tickets for and to share survelliance football from those seats. You don't band together to do that if you don't care.

3) Lots of individual articles out there quoting anonymous Big Ten coaches who are furious about this, e.g. https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/c...chigan-theyve-been-doing-this-crap-for-years/

Coaches aren't relevant. They don't make those decisions. Which earlier you acknowledged.
Banding together and caring doesn't mean you support immediate action or severe sanctions. It's cooperating with an investigation.
Again, not coaches. ADs and University Presidents.

This is what I mean by you being unable to support what you're saying. You're smarter than this.

I don't care if Michigan gets the death penalty once the investigation is completed. I'm just trying to be realistic while you're talking about coaches being upset which means nothing.

 

[fastlax16]

Didn't somebody turn around and say "who the hell are you?"

I think he was probably able to get away with it since it was the first game of the season. New faces etc.